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5-MeO-DMT shrooms growing beautifully.. Best way to analyze for 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT?

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yoyoman

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I don't think anyone's tried it before (which blows my mind, even if 99% of people think it probably won't work, I would think someone would have done it by now and posted results). Shulgin's unanswered question/theory from like 2005.. It is known already that adding DMT, DET, DiPT, etc. results in a lot of 4-HO-DET/Dipt/whatever out with simple tryptamines in high potency, but (as far as i know) nobody knows if adding something more bulky like 5-MeO-DMT would result in any 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT out.

Probably not .. maybe.. but when there are like a million people on the planet growing psilocybin mushrooms I would think one would have tossed in some 5-meo by now..

So I donated ~80-90mg (all i had) 5-meo-dmt (HCl salt) to a friend who is an expert at growing. I heard that all went well (added to substrate before sterilization, in a pint jar i believe) and the mushrooms are growing beautifully (he said for some reason they seem to be doing better than the normal ones). I'm sure i'll not have much problem finding someone willing to analyze (and get a nice amount in case said person wants to bio-assay) with LCMS/GCMS/NMR/HPLC/whatever tools work.

But, should he dry them a certain way? Or split up the fruited shrooms.. dry some the normal way (i don't know how he usually does it), or dunk a wet shroom in ethanol or methanol or maybe add something like ascorbic acid.. Anything special I should tell him to do to preserve any 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT so someone can analyze for any?

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The other plan (since he's all for it, experimenting i mean) is to send him a good amount of powdered mimosa root bark (that people say seems to always be 1% DMT or more), so he can try adding x grams to different jars as-is and see what the optimum amount for max psilocin output would be (assuming the mycellium will take up the DMT without an extraction needed). I don't know if it might have to be ph adjusted etc. Also I am curious if adding phosphoric acid (buffered to something.. like sodium phosphate or some other salt) would result in more psilocybin production. Worth a try. As I like to say "why not?" (try it, when there's no negatives to try something out). If this fails completely then maybe some kind of crude or quick and dirty extraction could be done if there's something in the bark that would stop the mushrooms from growing.

Also if I come around any DiPT or MET (now adding MET that would make for some awesome mushrooms! IMO) or MPT or any other simply tryps i'm going to send them his way.. too bad EiPT and some others aren't on the "market" :(.
 
There is some evidence that dihydroxylated tryptamines (putative metabolites of 4-ho-5-meo-dmt) may be neurotoxic - 5,6-DiHO-T and 5,7-DiHO-T are both serotonergic neurotoxins IIRC. & There's not really a lot of evidence suggesting that it's going to increase potency at all - viz. 4,5,-mdo-tryptamines being almost inactive compared to 4-ho or 5-meo.

Best way to analyse would be to take an existing method for the quantitation of psilocin via your Favourite Analytical Tool (probably GC/MS or some sort of HPLC). Test your "extra magical mushroom" extract and compare it against a "normal magic jmushroom" extract of the same species. There will likely be one or two new peaks in your chromatogram! If you have a MS you can do the math and pick out the likely ions, or look in the literature to see if someone has posted MS data. If they haven't, that's a journal paper for you.

Otherwise you'll just have to extract the alkaloids (basic ethanol sounds good) and do column chromatography like almost every natural products chemist does.
 
Thanks re: the info about possible neurotoxic metabolites.. I don't really care all that much about eating these things its really more just to find out if the enzymes will still 4-hydroxylate something this bulky. If it ends up to be the case.. well, then everyone will finally know and probably experiment more, and maybe use it as a tool to synthesize other compounds that are too difficult/time consuming to synthesize, or just to add research to what these enzymes are capable of.. Its just something that should have been tested long ago that people love to talk about, argue about, speculate about.. but nobody just does the experiment. I guess sometimes you just have to do it yourself (and/or get friends to help you ;) ). There's other things to try like adding AMT.. i am kind of expecting it not to work (AMT or 5-meo-dmt) , but it would be very exciting if it did :)

Seems like it would be "news worthy".
 
(unrelated to 4-ho-5-meo-dmt, related to adding mimosa bark to substrate to increase potency):

So I put some mimosa powdered bark in a vial with some distilled water and it looks like the ph is already pretty low... 2-3. Anyone know the best thing to add to raise it? I mean maybe VERY little NaOH will work and wouldn't add much more "material" to the substrate (don't want to bother the mycellium/shrooms any more than adding the bark), but maybe something like sodium carbonate or bicarb would still be ok.. I suppose I should ask the shroomery or another board (preferrably, anytime i mention anything that sounds like an experiment i get kicked off the shroomery... nothin' new/novel ever going on over there... 8) "why raise potency with DMT when you can add tryptamine HCl!" 8( )

MG_7654.jpg
 
^calcium oxide/carbonate.

If I remember correctly adding tryptophan, tryptamine, mimosa, and DMT has been tried on the shroomery and in another study. The patent didn't seem to work as advertized. There seems to be some negative feedback from these compounds. AFAIK nobody has tried other tryptamines.
 
A/B extract the indolic alkaloids and then run a TLC (see this paper: http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/pdf/psilo.analysis.bigwood.pdf ) with standards of psilocin and 5-MeO-DMT. The 5-MeO derivative should show up at a different Rf using the solvent systems described.

IIRC the enzyme that hydroxylates DMT (a p450?) is unknown, and so it's not really known if the 5-MeO-DMT compound will readily be a substrate. It may simply not bind to the enzyme.

Edit: A fun thing to do if you had a year or two would be to use consensus sequence primers for P450 enzymes and clone and sequence all the genes you can find in P. cubensis. To find out which are function in the enzyme and what their transcripts are, RT-PCR must be used. From there, I guess you'd have to do gene expression studies with specific primers and qPCR and find out which p450 enzymes are expressed in the fruit.

At the end of the day, if you find this illusive p450 and all it needs is NADH/NADPH as a reducing cofactor, you can transform it into bacteria and you'd probably get pretty good psilocin yields from DMT.
 
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Cool stuff... I've always wondered about cubensis bioconversion.

Regarding the P450... you'd have to do the expression in yeast. Ecoli is a terrible host for non-hetereologous P450 expression. I've been seriously considering getting some growing P cubensis from a friend and doing a little high-throughput sequencing (Illumina most likely) to get a good gene library going!
 
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