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5-MeO-DALT causing neurotoxicity: hospitalization, catatonia, & seizures

AlphaOdure

AlphaOdure

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This excerpt is from a thread I started in TDS.. I apologize for the double post but I felt that its well served in TDS first and foremost as a warning.. however, I also want some answers and/or potential information on the pharmacodynamics which may have resulted in this experience, which would best suit this post here:

My past drug use is pretty extensive--i'll spare the details except what is most relevant here and I will just say I have used & abused every drug out there. The bad experience w/ 5-meo-DALT occurred this last August and the other drugs then being taken were buprenorphine 4mg/day (recovering heroin addict, clean since dec 22 '07) & etizolam 40mg/day (yes, you read that right). I had previously used this batch of 5-meo-DALT on 2-3 other occasions w/ no adverse effect, what happened next was truly scary.

My only memories are some 4-5 days after being discharged and very very vague memories of seeing family members. But apparently I was hospitalized w/ catatonia and seizures, which went on for 3 weeks--the period of time of which i was hospitalized for. I have no idea how I got there, no memory of taking the 5-meo-DALT and no history/evidence of epilepsy, but history of odd convulsion-type events--however, no experience of these w/ other hallucinogens i've tried: lsd, psilocybe mushrooms, 2c-c, mdma, 5-meo-dmt, dmt, 5-meo-amt, 3-meo-pcp, ketamine, pcp, 4-ho-dipt/iprocin, 4-ho-mipt/miprocin, dalt. As i said, my next coherent recollections are of me shopping a few days later w/ my mom. Although apparently to others I was quite coherent. The dose was 60mg, all previous doses were also in this range, 40-100mg.

My only guess is that 5-meo-dalt has some sort of cumulative, possible degenerative, neurological effect. But this still doesn't seem to quite explain why i had an effect for 3 weeks; the memory problems, the seizures, etc. Unless my dependency on etizolam started causing severe seizures and they also had to treat the withdrawal, which i'm sure it would've caused seizures if i wasn't treated w/ benzodiazepines for long. But i was put on 6mg/day of lorazepam & abilify, 5mg/day; along w/ my usual dose of depakote, 750mg/day. (it was a blessing in disguise, b/c this allowed me to wean off etizolam & benzos entirely using a slow taper per doc's orders. Off benzos entirely as of 10/31/14)

Anyway, this is just a forewarning.

Anyone have any experience w/ this? Any neurological answers?

Also, our university hospital is doing a study on my case and submitting it to the American Journal of Neurology due to the odd, unseen jerks, convulsions, & seizures I was having. But this wont be for a few years, but if its accepted, i'll most certainly repost the abstract.
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As mentioned, my case is being submitted to the American Journal of Neurology. If accepted, I most certainly will post a follow up thread w/ the relevant abstract information
 
40mg/day etizolam is something you really have to consider more being the cause... thats.. wow
 
Golden, i'm thinking thats what may have prolonged the experience.. but what caused the catatonia and the initial experience of seizures when i first went in w/ adequate levels of etizolam? I've been able to go at least 2-3 days w/o having significant neurological experiences like seizures. And surely the etizolam didn't cause this--it was always obtained from a reputable source i'm sure 90% of US users utilize, and i had used that batch extensively too prior to hospitalization.

And yes, heh, i'm aware of how disgustingly high that is.. actually it may have even been a bit higher as I could down a 1000mg mixture in 5-6 days, if not sooner. Its funny in retrospect since i'm out of all that bullshit now and am benzo free.
 
I hope the American Journal of Neurology knows about how much etizolam you were taking.
 
This is unfortunately why etizolam will be controlled at some point.

The most likely cause was etizolam withdrawal. And now 5-MeO-DALT and etizolam will be listed in Pubmed as causing an emergency room visit. Way to go.
 
Sounds like you were tripping too hard and didn't dose your etizolam. I mean its good you survived but that sounds more like a case of severe benzo withdrawal than anything else.

What in particular differentiates your case from standard benzo withdrawal. Sorry if the tone is negative, I really am interested though.
 
SONN said:
I hope the American Journal of Neurology knows about how much etizolam you were taking.
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His doctors must have been aware he was on quite a bit of it considering they put him on a benzo taper, who knows how much they'll emphasize that point in the manuscript though.
 
Dresden said:
Etizolam is known to cause seizures with high dosages.
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Acutely or when withdrawing? Benzo's in general are known for making seizures less likely acutely, so it would really be something if Etizolam was doing the opposite.
 
Benzo analogues, which include etizolam, are known for causing seizures. This is the second case I have heard of it with etizolam. In the other case, the teenage boy had a 10 minute long seizure.
 
Dresden said:
Benzo analogues, which include etizolam, are known for causing seizures. This is the second case I have heard of it with etizolam. In the other case, the teenage boy had a 10 minute long seizure.
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Known by who? I really want to know more about this, do you have any more information I could read?
 
serotonin2A said:
This is unfortunately why etizolam will be controlled at some point.

The most likely cause was etizolam withdrawal. And now 5-MeO-DALT and etizolam will be listed in Pubmed as causing an emergency room visit. Way to go.
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Inconsiderate, short sighted. It wasn't a mere fucking "emergency room visit"--i almost died, and at that, almost became permanently catatonic due to a freak reaction to 5-meo-dalt and was hospitalized for 3 goddamn weeks. Its being submitted for further study so others w/ this reaction are treated properly, i was originally given zero medications for two days.

And all you worry about is losing your buzz? get your head out of your fucking ass. I've been tripping for 15 years and never had this reaction; and was on 2000mg/day of butalbital (barbiturates) previous to etizolam. So whatever DID happen, needs to be studied despite your self-concerning disposition to keep your own dick wet.
 
^ well, just because you took 5-meo-dalt prior to the incident, doesn't make it a fact that it was solely responsible for what happened. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be investigated, but to me it sounds like you try to present the compound as some sort of scapegoat.
 
AlphaOdure said:
Inconsiderate, short sighted. It wasn't a mere fucking "emergency room visit"--i almost died, and at that, almost became permanently catatonic due to a freak reaction to 5-meo-dalt and was hospitalized for 3 goddamn weeks. Its being submitted for further study so others w/ this reaction are treated properly, i was originally given zero medications for two days.

And all you worry about is losing your buzz? get your head out of your fucking ass. I've been tripping for 15 years and never had this reaction; and was on 2000mg/day of butalbital (barbiturates) previous to etizolam. So whatever DID happen, needs to be studied despite your self-concerning disposition to keep your own dick wet.
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You were on 40 mg etizolam / day in combination with a serotonergic drug, which are known to incidentally cause seizures, and you received no medication for two days? The initial effect may be an idiosyncratic reaction, but with your GABA system so desensitized, I would attribute a lot of the later symptoms to GABA issues.

Do you have any residual problems?
 
In all seriousness I would be looking at that insane etizolam dosage for aetiology, not necessarily the 5-MeO-DALT.

There have been cases of neuroleptic malignant syndrome (as well as atypical NMS-like symptoms) with etizolam:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=etizolam seizures&f=false
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824585/

This would explain your memory problems as this is classic for NMS. 'Memory impairment is a consistent feature of recovery from NMS, and usually temporary, though in some cases, may become persistent' - Wiki

Get a copy of your medical records and see if there are other signs of this, ie: hyperthermia, bradykinesia, rigidity, etc.

Then receiving no medication for 2 days = pretty much guaranteed intense convulsions. I've read of people getting severe withdrawal convulsions (and admitted to hospital because of this) from etizolam use way less than what you were taking, so it's no surprise...
Eg: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=78005.0

Diagnosis for this sort of thing can be difficult. Eg: I once took a some tramadol on top of my daily venlafaxine and ended up with convulsions, stopped breathing, cardiac arrest, resuscitated, then in a 3 week coma on life support, etc. Very ugly. The doctors treated it as an overdose, but it wasn't until afterwards that my father (doctor) went back over the hospital data and realized that it was actually serotonin syndrome.

Anyway I'm sorry about your ordeal, such extreme events can though be used to garner a certain unique appreciation of life. :)
 
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AlphaOdure said:
Its being submitted for further study so others w/ this reaction are treated properly, i was originally given zero medications for two days.
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This will be of great help for all people using a 40-times benzodiazepine dose combined with a substance with unknown pharmacological properties in the future.
Thanks a lot.
 
Acanthus said:
In all seriousness I would be looking at that insane etizolam dosage for aetiology, not necessarily the 5-MeO-DALT.

There have been cases of neuroleptic malignant syndrome (as well as atypical NMS-like symptoms) with etizolam:
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Well the only reason i stress the 5-MeO-DALT is b/c this is what the doctors were stressing. An underlying serotonin syndrome may be at play, who knows. And prior to the etizolam, I was on 40x the intro dose of carisoprodol; then 40x the intro dose of the barbiturate butalbital--then moved to etizolam to attempt to taper off GABAergics, but didn't work out too well.

i was just looking for some sort of explanation on the matter if anyone had any, not judgement. So thanks for your informative post %)

Diagnosis for this sort of thing can be difficult. Eg: I once took a some tramadol on top of my daily venlafaxine and ended up with convulsions, stopped breathing, cardiac arrest, resuscitated, then in a 3 week coma on life support, etc. Very ugly. The doctors treated it as an overdose, but it wasn't until afterwards that my father (doctor) went back over the hospital data and realized that it was actually serotonin syndrome.
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Wow that is scary. In my case, I just can't account for the 3 weeks of no memory, aside from it being perhaps a GABA problem--but this never really happened before/during my use, at least to the extent as it did in the hospital. At least I don't think so.

Admittedly, when I try to recall events or things in the past, I cannot pin them down to a certain time or really remember them clearly during my use--its only up until i was put on 6mg of lorazepam and weaned off that (since early October) that I can start recalling events for the first time in years.

However, I always remembered the times I tried to kick in our state psych ward's before, so why wouldn't this hospital stay be any different if there weren't other diagnoses at play beyond typical memory impacts of benzodiazepine use? And I realize seizures would be instigated by 2 days of no medication, but, for 3 weeks? Why did the memory situation persist for 3 weeks? I even saw my neurologist for a follow up and all he talked about was the 5-MeO-DALT.

Anyway I'm sorry about your ordeal, such extreme events can though be used to garner a certain unique appreciation of life. :)
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That's for sure, prior to this my only attempts at sobriety were intentional overdoses. While life has garnered a certain rigid boredom it never possessed before, it is soo much easier not having to spend $110 every week on a gram of etizolam to make it through life.. and also experiencing the inevitable, horrific withdrawals.
 
AlphaOdure said:
Inconsiderate, short sighted. It wasn't a mere fucking "emergency room visit"--i almost died, and at that, almost became permanently catatonic due to a freak reaction to 5-meo-dalt and was hospitalized for 3 goddamn weeks. Its being submitted for further study so others w/ this reaction are treated properly, i was originally given zero medications for two days.

And all you worry about is losing your buzz? get your head out of your fucking ass. I've been tripping for 15 years and never had this reaction; and was on 2000mg/day of butalbital (barbiturates) previous to etizolam. So whatever DID happen, needs to be studied despite your self-concerning disposition to keep your own dick wet.
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I'm not "worried about loosing my buzz", I'm a pharmacologist who works with etizolam and 5-MeO-DALT as part of my job. I'm sorry that you had a bad reaction but your conduct is extremely reckless. So now eventually it will be 10 times as hard to purchase etizolam and 5-MeO-DALT for studies. And probably 90% of the potential research projects with etizolam or 5-MeO-DALT will never happen if they are scheduled, so some interesting questions will never be answered.

I understand that it wasn't just an "emergency room visit", but that's how it will be described in the Drug Abuse Warning Network statistics, and in the scheduling recommendations published by HHS and DEA.

I don't want to go on a rant here, but i think you seriously need to adjust your attitude. Your the one who was being extremely reckless here. I know that you paid the price, but your actions are exactly why the government controls new drugs, because some people just cannot play nice with their new toys. You can get mad at me all you want, but in the end what happened to you was your fault. I think many people here would anticipate that combining 40 mg/day etizolam with 5-MeO-DALT could easily produce a bad outcome.
 
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