5-HTP and L-Tyrosine - Horrible experience

[shibireru]

wow... this is all so incredibly strange, even by bluelight's standards.

It goes without saying that of all those who have participated in this thread I am the one who has contributed most to this state of affairs, but although so bizarre and bemusing has my behaviour been, I don't think the entirety of the blame for the strangeness falls upon me... I mean, here we have a thread full of people who, although they continually play around with various psychoactive substances in an effort to feel better, when it comes to giving me advice as to how I might go about producing a happier state of mind for myself, come off as anti-drug ninnies telling me the answer lies in exercise and therapy (both of which I have pursued with some benefit, but not total resolution of my depression) and NOT drugs.

Yes, drugs just aren't the answer... one should avoid all drug usage... So why are you all here?! Am I missing something?

Are you confused as to what I mean by the word "happiness"? Perhaps you all place the concept of happiness upon a pedestal, taking it to be the most transcendent form of pleasure a human being can experience or perhaps you regard it as a concept which betokens a persisting state of total and complete fulfillment of one's greatest desires and the pervasive feeling of joy that would accompany such a thing. If we take that to be the meaning of happiness, well, of course drugs alone aren't going to produce it. But I, apparently unlike you, take happiness for a virtual synonym of 'joy,' 'bliss,' 'pleasure,' 'contentment,' 'satisfaction,' seeing that the semantic mappings of these words have so much in common with one another. I tend to use each of them in a generic sense to indicate "positive feelings". Would any of you suggest that drugs can't induce positive feelings? If so, then, again, why are you here?

just to make clear though, mushrooms and LSD don't cause one to become psychotic "even for a short time." There is good evidence that they may actually serve as antipsychotics (though some, experiencing an exceptionally bad trip, will become psychotic as a result)

In the sense that severe deficiency of serotonergia can produce depressive psychosis and the suppletion of serotonergia can remedy this psychosis, then yes, they are possible antipsychotics. (They also seem to counteract glutamate excitotoxicity, which may be the aetiology of Schizophrenia in some cases (although the theory doesn't explain in my opinion why the reduction in brain volume seen in schizophrenics is due not to the loss of neurons but rather the lost of axons; glutamate excitotoxicity is supposed to trigger apoptosis which destroys the entire neuron, if I'm not mistaken)) But the hallmarks of psychosis are delusions, hallucinations, and detachment from reality, all three of which can and do occur following ingestion of LSD or Psilocin. So what are you talking about? That is one of the most absurd and uninformed statements I have ever encountered in my entire life.

LSD can't cause transient psychosis.... Really? Huuurrrrrrr derp derp derp I learned something new today!

Have you actually used any recreational drugs, marijuana, opioids, nitrous oxide even? You seem like the type who'd be too bothered by "losing control" to enjoy these things.

All of the above.
Where is the loss of control in opioids?
You're right about marijuana, though: I almost had to be hospitalized the second and last time I used it.

And, yes, your assumption that L-tyrosine + 5-HTP would result in an MDMA like experience is entirely nonsensical.

"Entirely nonsensical" seems to be a poor choice of words on your part.

As long as there is the specious and naive line of reasoning that goes

MDMA -> serotonin & dopamine
5-HTP -> serotonin
Tyrosine -> dopamine
Therefore
(5-HTP + Tyrosine) ~= MDMA

the idea that 5-HTP and Tyrosine could induce an experience at least somewhat similar to an MDMA experience can't be described as "entirely nonsensical". Do you mean "entirely inaccurate"?

^ totally agree. there have been small studies about people given oxycodone for severe treatment resistant depression, and it worked really well.

Thank you. A rational person.

Did everyone miss the part where I spoke of the existence of substances which can prevent and reverse tolerance to opiates (which is the one and only reason to eschew opiates as a treatment for depression)? The ones I am aware of are: proglumide (cholecystokinin inhibitor), 7-nitroindazole (nitric oxide synthase inhibitor), and ibudilast (as well as all phosphodiesterase 4 inhibitors, I believe, which have also shown the potential to treat schizophrenia, depression, and alzheimer's and to provide neuroprotective effects.)

I'm also surprised you're one of the first to give real advice and suggest something else, like Buprenorphine. I mean, maybe these other posters have had problems with depression and maybe not, but just saying "Get a social life!" is MUCH MUCH easier said when one is not suffering from depression. what i get from this is more a "what can i use that will facilitate my growth into society." i don't think the OP is asking for a magic bullet (well maybe, but who isnt?) but more something that makes pursuing these other ideas manageable.

Thank you for being rational again. What you have written is entirely accurate.

edit: hey OP, are you comfortable with your sexuality? I know it was mentioned briefly, but to me, gay + Utah = not good. and i know this is probably the least of your worries, but maybe you could try to tackle this first? start off small, and help give you confidence to tackle the other big beast.

If I am not comfortable with being gay it's only because of the way retarded people treat me for being gay.

What did you have in mind? That I come out of the closet? I am dependent upon my parents entirely for financial support and neither of them tolerates homosexuals very well, so I'd rather not do that until I become a bit more independent, which won't happen until I resolve my issues with my appearance, which probably won't happen until I find some combination of drugs or another.

 

[grue]

In the sense that severe deficiency of serotonergia can produce depressive psychosis and the suppletion of serotonergia can remedy this psychosis, then yes, they are possible antipsychotics.

No.

First off, the neurobiological action of the 5HT2A 'agonist' psychedelics is not functionally equivalent to "supplementation of serotonergia". The activity produced is in fact in many ways resembling an antagonistic effect on serotonin transmission in many parts of the brain. On the whole, the neurobiological action is extremely complex and there's a lot we don't know about it. Oh, and you are quite correct about the inhibitory effect on glutamate-mediated excitotoxicity and the possible helpfulness here.

But finally, you're wrapped up in the neurobiological side of this story, which is a useful thing to study but not the thing itself, and ignoring the mind itself.

I think it's worth posting some quotes from my friend Sprinkles, from an old thread:

"The same way learning can affect your mind - (changes axons, receptors, overall structure of the brain) ... experience, most definately, can cause changes to brain structure at the molecular level ..."

"What we are discussing here is a change of state of mind, an understanding of your past, a vivid perception of yourself, how life can be, what life is, that we are eternal energy of the universe, etc. This is the great insight that psychedelics provide that marijuana often does not. Now, can this insight lead to significant changes in a human's life - to the understanding that he does not have to occupy and exist in a state of anxiety and fear? Yes, of course, if his main problem is one that originated in the psyche and not of the body. Thus, what I propose is that the neuroplasticity is not a direct result of the drugs action on any brain neurotropic factors, but that the drug acts as a catalyst - it initiates a cascade of events that will lead to eventual neuroplasticity due to an altered state of existence. And this has been proven to be successful many times. People have been cured of "schizoprehnia"(whatever this disorder entails, no one can really define it and it seems to occupy anything and everything regarding human experience) through use of psychedelics. This is documented. Now, if you wish to use these substances to treat yourself without medical supervision or pharmaceutical assurance that what you are taking is actually what you are taking then that is your choice alone. But remain mindful that the pharmaceutical companies have no interest in curing you, but rather, treating you for indefinite amount of time."

You should feel free to examine the research regarding LSD and schizophrenia from the 1960s, before further research was stalled by the drug's scheduling and mass hysteria.

But the hallmarks of psychosis are delusions, hallucinations, and detachment from reality, all three of which can and do occur following ingestion of LSD or Psilocin. So what are you talking about? That is one of the most absurd and uninformed statements I have ever encountered in my entire life.

LSD can't cause transient psychosis.... Really? Huuurrrrrrr derp derp derp I learned something new today!

Good. Hammilton was speaking about schizophrenic psychosis, which for ~40 years LSD and psilocin have been dismissed as an inccurate model for. In this right, many of the people involved in a serious examination of what the 5HT2A psychedelics really do, are not comfortable with labelling the drugs (and make no mistake -- this is an issue of nomenclature, not hard science or even of the nebulous "mind", i.e psychiatric practice) as psychosis-inducing agents, as it is extremely reductive.

Lose the attitude please.

 

[seep]

Relax, my friend. I don't claim to have any officially-sanctioned authority to diagnose psychiatric perturbations; I am a glorified orderly at a mental hospital, hired originally because I'm strong enough to subdue violent patients but promoted to swiss-army-knife status once they figured out I could write well (I live in an area where even the professionals are marginally literate in English). Regarding the psychotic stuff I referenced, some of the mannerisms you exhibit are redolent of schizophrenic bx, but don't think too much of it: after interviewing and having sessions with thousands of patients I've gotten to be able to sniff these things out just on instinct, but with you I forget that I'm simply observing text and cannot pick up on the all-important non-verbals so I retract many of the things I told you earlier. I'm glad grue seconded my hunch that Nardil may be efficacious for the symptoms you describe, and maybe instead of the dextroamphetamine you can utilize something a little less extreme, such as phenethylamine 2 or 3 times per week (which the Nardil will potentiate 250-fold). Also, I'm intrigued by Tsukasa's claim that l-dopa "destroys dopamine-producing neurons"--are we sure about that? I have a kilo of L-dopa coming in a week and I'm excitied and I'll be taking it with a mild DDC inhibitor and I'm excited.

Side question: I haven't read this whole thread but were you taking the curcumin to potentiate a certain exogenous monamine and if so was it effective and if so at what dose.

LSD: excellent for helping you see the fundamental fallacies you hold so dear (that's not an insult). Opiates for depression: one of the worst ideas ever. If taken long-term, then discontinued, you'll never regain whatever functionality you had before beginning the opioid regimen.

I'm on 2 mg alprazolam right now so I probably misspelled a couple of things so deal.

 

[pofacedhoe]

to the OP- if you have personality disorder based issues, these need to be dealt with by you with a psychiatrist before any meds will do any good.

cognitive behavioural therapy.

YOUR OUTLOOK is part of why you are unable to sustain a feeling of happiness or even light contentment.

think about therapy- forget about neurotransmitters, how about changing your thoughts?

thoughts lead to conclusions, conclusions make us unhappy

 

[daily_amphetamine]

Isn't a gram of L-Tyrosine a little excessive?

I wouldn't say so, I've been taking three grams of L-Tyrosine a day to cope with Adderall withdraws. So I guess it all depends on what you need it for.

 

[Dezamasezon]

5-htp does not cross the blood brain barrier it's metabolized and changed by digestive juices. Youre stupid, bai.

 

[seep]

5-htp does not cross the blood brain barrier it's metabolized and changed by digestive juices. Youre stupid, bai.

5-hydroxytryptophan crosses the bbb but 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) does not. When taken with a peripherally-acting decarboxylase inhibitor, 5-HTP successfully enters the CNS and can there be decarboxylated into serotonin: hence the risk of serotonin toxicity (notice in post #23 that op ingests epigallocatechin, a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor).

 

[nuke]

What a peculiar thread.

I have taken 5-HTP and l-tyrosine together numerous times without much in the way of observed effect.

 

[forestxfaerie]

dude.. what you need is MDMA. one session of that will change your mindset for the better for sure. just make sure its pure...

 

[Dezamasezon]

5-hydroxytryptophan crosses the bbb but 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) does not. When taken with a peripherally-acting decarboxylase inhibitor, 5-HTP successfully enters the CNS and can there be decarboxylated into serotonin: hence the risk of serotonin toxicity (notice in post #23 that op ingests epigallocatechin, a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor).

Noted; thanks for the correction.

 

[lenses]

I can tell you that drugs are not going to solve your depression. Sure, low neurotransmitter levels can CONTRIBUTE to feeling generally "bad" which can make being happy (the opposite of depression) very hard if not impossible. But I don't think thats your problem. I think your problems is you're not happy with yourself. This is way more complicated than what can be communicated over a forum.

Your method of communication is hindering the general forum's comprehension. It would be a lot easier if you didn't try to show off.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Another aspie here eh, hey!

Autie here, drop me a PM if you want to talk.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Well autie actually, but close enough, two ends of the same stick

 

[thisusername]

take mdma and go to a club. its very easy to find, just get a job.

 

[wreckhead]

As has been said, opiates aren't a good idea in the long-term, just like benzos and other addictive drugs. They are very effective, but the dose-escalation will eventually reach a point where either your wallet is empty or your body can't handle the load (i.e. liver toxicity, etc.).

Yes, NMDA-antagonists prevent tolerance in theory, but there is very little knowledge on effective doses. I imagine they'd cause some cognitive impairment at effective doses, and there's the problem of potential Olney's lesions. Also, NMDA-antagonists make you a lot less social (see: negative schizophrenic symptoms), so your idea wouldn't work.

From experience, buying obscure drugs and supplements on the internet generally doesn't work. I've been there (and probably am right now), and all the research does is give you something to distract you from the anxiety of changing your habits.

I'm not saying self-medication is impossible; it just tends to lead nowhere and stops you facing the problems at hand. You've gotta ask yourself: has it worked out for you? Doesn't seem so.

Even after blowing my savings on the A-Z of supplements and drugs that could possibly help me, the SSRI I am prescribed for free is the only chemical that has seemed to touch on the underlying reasons for how I am.

From where I am, you sound like you could benefit from a shitload of serotonin. I say take more tryptophan (5-HTP is shit) and possibly a high dose of SSRI. Trust me, do not listen to the benzo-fiends on the net, SSRIs are very effective with high enough doses and several months of patience.

If you insist on buying obscure stuff on the net, try sceletium. It's a potent SSRI that is very fast-acting (no 2-4 week wait), so should prove to you how cool serotonin is for most problems.

 

[Drael]

This thread reminds me of why psychiatrists are so useless, and the dsm-iv is so completely free of all reason.

If your depressed, so long as you diets good, your brain chemicals are prolly fine. (there is in fact little evidence that shortages of neuroreceptors is the cause of functional impairments in mood etc, compare say the SSRE with SSRI, both of which are supposed to help mood! lol, understanding of brain = primitive).

So forget chemicals that are poorly understood. There are three parts to happiness

1) Freinds and family
2) Beleifs and purpose
3) Freedom from oppression

Prolly 2 is the easiest to work on, find a fresh way to veiw the world, and a meaningful project or direction to take it in. Doing stuff is very human, and if u aint doing stuff, even just mentally, ull likely feel lacking. Perhaps read some philosophy. Then work on improving ur social life, and being free of poverty etc.

If you have addiction issues, stick to less and milder - life is about contrast, and if your euphoric four hours a week, ull end up feeling dysphoric four hours a week, or more.

If your doing all that, and ur still depressed, there may be issues for the past, or in the subconcious. Here therapy is useful. And if you do that, and the above and your still depressed, well give chemicals a spin. But dont expect miracles, there isnt any such thing in psychiatric medicine, yet anyway. Down-regulation tends to make most things useless in the end anyway.

I mean, if your brains depressed for whatever reason, maybe thats not an illness, but a resolution process (see early psychology, freud, jung etc). As a resolution process, it could be to modify behaviour, worldview etc to something more adaptable ..... ie maybe it happens for a reason...This could in fact be true of all so called "mental illness", and if it is, the current approach is to halt the natural healing process via chemicals, essentially keeping us "sick" indefinately.

Oh, and from personal experience, kanna (sceletium) rocks for mood. Its subtley gives u energy, lifts your mood, in a very subtle clean and tolerable way - but such that youll notice the mood change. It also may help personal insight - my experience with it gave realisations, which is pretty impressive for a subtle as plant. If i struggled with depression, i wouldnt think twice, id go for kanna. Its an SSRI, but doesnt feel anything like dirty prozac, or st johns wort (which both suck IMO, but not as bad as tricyclics!). In fact it doesnt feel like anything, just a better mood. Its also immediate, doesnt cost much. I bet big pharma appreciates that more people dont know about how good kanna is.

I was depressed for years. What helped me was the above - mostly philsophy, projects and a little self analysis. Basically it caused me to seek out better ways of living. If id been on prozac, and numb, i doubt i would have had as much luck. None of the anti-depressants worked at all really, and only thing ive found i would use if depressed is kanna.

Re emulating mdma, taking large amounts of l-tryptophan or 5-htp can induce some psychoactive effects very very vaguely like mdma. Sorta very relaxed and a bit of mood improvement. But mdma's action is definately more complex than serotonin+dopamine. There are drugs than effect one or the other of these receptors (say amphetamine), but none of these drugs have mdma's "magick". For a start, there are many different sites that activity can occur at, and different ways its mediated. For example mdma releases oxytocin, but mediated through 5ht1a, not directly (oxytocin may be more key to mdma's magick). Id say the body feelings are prolly dopamine related, but i dont know the style of action there - certainly amphetamine doesnt feel the same. Comes back to that knowledge of brain = next to nothing thing i mentioned before...

 

[indigoaura]

Hello,

First I would like to make it clear that I am not a doctor. I do work on a daily basis in a semi-psychological environment where I encounter children who have been diagnosed with a wide variety of disorders ranging from ADHD to Autism.

I also like to read and study about neurochemistry because I find it interesting, but my understanding is fairly limited.

My thoughts are based on my own personal observations and perceptions.

It seems to me from reading this thread that you have a lot of things that you do not like about your life.

* You live with your parents and your parents do not contribute to your self confidence.

* You live in Utah and cannot find many like minded, non-judgemental individuals to associate with.

* You are gay, but are unable to fully express your sexuality because of judgement.

* You find yourself to be unattractive, and have very low self confidence which hinders your motivation to seek improvement for your life.

I am curious about one thing that has not come up in this thread, and that is whether or not you have always felt this level of depression.

How did you feel when you were a child? Did you always dislike your appearance? Did the feelings regarding your appearance suddenly develop, and if so when?

I personally feel that anyone who was in your situation would be depressed. You must feel very stuck and unable to change your situation for the better. Feelings of powerlessness can create severe depression and lack of motivation. If you do not perceive that you are capable of changing your situation, why would you be motivated?

If you imagine a life away from your parents, away from Utah, surrounded by people who are supportive and non-judgemental of homosexuality, how does that make you feel?

It seems as though you have few outlets to be yourself, few outlets for expression in any form. I don't know how you would not be depressed considering your situation - you are in a hostile environment.

I agree that depression occurs in the brain and there is a chemical/neurological basis for it. However, in my life, when I have been situationally depressed, that depression aleviates when the situation changes. I see depression as a serious red flag that something is not right in your life.

You could find supplements and pills to try and approach the depression from a chemical angle, but I don't think that is a long term solution. So long as your environment is hostile, you will be discontent.

My simple advice to you would be to try to find one thing, just one, to work on improving your situation. For example, a drivers license seems like a good place to start so you can begin to limit your dependence upon your parents. You could get a private instructor so that you can limit the people you encounter while obtaining a license.

I also agree that a good therapist would be an excellent outlet, and would provide someone that you could express your thoughts to without fear of judgement. Would your parents help you to obtain a therapist?

What is the situation with your parents? Are they abusive at all? Are they loving? Do you feel safe asking them for assistance or is that out of the question?

I don't know you and I have no way of knowing if you are or are not mentally ill, if you are or are not attractive etc. I do know that when I read your posts what screams out the most to me is that you are in an incredibly unsatisfying situation and you need to remove yourself from it.

You can do it. One small step at a time, you can change your situation.

Feel free to PM me anytime.

Best wishes to you...

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

I've only read the first half of this thread, cos I have to get to class in a few minutes, so I'll make this brief. One psychiatrist diagnosed me with ADD at 5, and another with Asperger's at 26. I wasn't good with people. I'm 30 now and I'd consider myself average-to-slightly-below on social intelligence, but definitely enough to get by. I'm also a recovering Weaboo/Sinophile, and a natural born writer and linguist. Am naturally highly sensitive, and used to suffer violent mood swings -- fear, anger, sadness, mania, rinse repeat. Used to hate myself, never intended on living past my early 20s.

Somehow things turned out OK for me.

Here's the things that STARTED me on my journey out of hell. These things are ONLY useful as a swiftkickintheass -- NOT something to be used repeatedly. Be sure to abstain from ALL your supplements or pharmacological products for a couple weeks before doing either one:
*** MDMA. In a very plurry setting with lots of warm, friendly people.
*** A very low-dose guided Ketamine trip, with a person whose presence you feel comfortable in reading you spiritual or philosophical literature that's life-affirming and uplifting, throughout the experience. (google Karl Jansen)

After that, I can't recommend enough:
*** Developing a serious athletic habit that involves a lot of aerobic exercise
*** Eating healthily.
*** Good quality coffee
*** Lecithin
*** Omega-3 Fish Oil !!!!!
*** Always having some sort of long term challenge or project in front of you, that you actually complete.
*** Always having something semi-distant to look forward to.
*** Always having, or actively looking for, a job. Unemployment is a fucking downer and a half, especially for us dudes, who are more likely to hang our sense of self-worth on our job productivity.

Good luck dude. And don't ever take a gram of Tyrosine again.

 

[psychotiKK]

The only thing which I can say I enjoy at all and actively study is Japanese, but I live in Utah and there are precious few individuals here to take an interest in anything remotely intellectual, let alone Japanese, and I wouldn't know where to find such people (contrary to expectation, you don't find them at the universities, since intelligent people usually attend illustrious, out-of-state schools). Those whom I've found who take an interest in Japanese are the kawaii-desu kind - you know, the ones who watch anime, learn a few prosaic Japanese phrases, and conclude that they know Japanese...



I exercise at home with free weights... Does that count? Or does the exercise need to be aerobic?



I mean to say what I am about to say with the utmost respect, so please don't take offense, but... the reason why aerobic exercise is therapeutic is that it raises the levels of various substances within the brain which have an antidepressant effect, such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor and endorphins (endogenous morphine). The same is true of social interaction. And yet you say that the answer probably doesn't lie in medicine. The extent to which a person feels happy is always and completely contingent upon his neurochemical make-up; there are less and more efficient ways of changing the constitution of the mind so that one should feel happier. You seem to be one of those people who are disposed to think that the hardest, longest, most indirect and most grueling path to success in necessarily and intrinsically superior to the path which leads one to the same place but induces far less injury and demands far less time in transit.

I'm looking to cut out the middle man here and find the path of least resistance. I'm not convinced yet that there are no pharmaceuticals or supplements out there that could alleviate my depression. Bear with me... If my experimentation should reveal that the path I am taking is a dead-end, I will return here and apologize to you profusely and diffusely and in a mindset of total humility.

I find myself finding many similarities between you and I the more I read your posts. I too suffer from depression, social and generalized anxiety disorder, and have been going through a lot of shit. I was addicted to opioids in the past, and have been on Suboxone Maintenance Therapy since I have quit, which has been about three years. Since then I have been in a terrible place. I lost touch with all my friends either because they moved out of state or don't care to talk to me anymore so I have no social life. I have many hobbies and interests, but many of them cost money and need other people to be able to enjoy them. Not just people though, friends, or at least acquaintances. I tend to have a difficult time making new friends and being around people I don't know. It's easy to say, "Just go out and start talking to people. Find things to do." When you have never suffered through the same issues or have not in a long time, the advice given is most likely worthless. I know I've been told everything on how to improve my life and nothing has worked so far.

I DO know in general how to get out of this rut, but being able to get the things done which are required to do so is what is difficult. I need friends so I can start up a social life again. The more I'm out and active, the more I will improve. I know you have to take small steps. Having certain responsibilities are necessary as they will make you feel that you are needed and important. Making goals and accomplishing them gives your self esteem a boost and lets yourself know that you can do more than you originally thought.

I have to learn how to be happier and successful without the need of others. Depending on other people is what has screwed me over on many levels. I'm about to turn 23 and I still live at home with my parents so that makes me feel like I am seen as a loser to other people and girls won't be interested in me because I'm not out in my own place with a lot of money to spend on them or for ourselves. Think about it.. it's very difficult to make friends or start relationships when you have no one but yourself to hang out with.

I'm actually into Japanese culture myself. I would love to learn how to speak and write in their language. I'm a fan of anime and technology in general, plus their roots and history interests me. The entire mindset of having revenge if someone hurts or kills your friend, family, loved one, there is death before dishonor, and the importance of love and friendship. There is much more to it then just that obviously, but I don't want to type for hours.