5-HTP and L-Tyrosine - Horrible experience

[shibireru]

Admittedly I have a terribly limited understanding of the pharmacokinetics of most substances, but I know as much as that 5-hydroxytryptophan is metabolized into 5-hydroxytryptamine, serotonin, and L-tyrosine into dihydroxy-l-phenylalanine/levodopa/l-dopa which in turn converts into dopamine via aromatic l amino acid decarboxylase. Knowing this - just enough to get myself into trouble - I took 1 gm of l-tyrosine along with approximately 100 mg of 5-HTP. I also took EGCG, purportedly a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor, and Quercetin, also by purport a catechol-O-methyl transferase inhibitor.

My thinking was that this would result in an experience very much like that precipitated by the ingestion of MDMA. Not at all. (Not that I've ever tried MDMA, but I understand that it generally promotes euphoria and entactogenesis.) The only effects were dysphoria, decreased linguistic aptitude and facility, forgetfulness, anxiety, withdrawal and reticence, strange and uncomfortable emotions... etc... Nothing positive. It was pretty miserable, but at least I didn't hallucinate or undergo hyperserotonaemia or something of the sort.

What went wrong? Is the problem my brain chemistry? Or is it simply the case that, although I believe myself to know next to nothing about the pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics of these substances, I actually know far less that I think I know?

What's most likely the problem here?

I'll mention that I took these substances because I have a nasty combination of severe depression and symptoms of ADD. I desire very much to learn and move forward in life. I have great interest in mathematics, graphics programming, game programming, languages, etc... but I have profoundly low motivation and when I actually do manage to force myself to study I get distracted very easily. That is to say, I have very poor concentration and focus. I really can't get a single damn thing done, nor do I ever feel any positive emotions. (I find myself alternating between severe depression and emotional numbness but I almost never experience feelings of joy, peace, satisfaction, hopefulness, etc...)

Does anyone have any words of advice for me here. I am fucking hating life. I thought that this combination of substances might do something for me, but it only made me feel worse just as every other substance I have taken to alleviate my depression as done (prozac, zoloft, wellbutrin, marijuana, citalopram, escitalopram, etc...). I really need help.

 

[Tsukasa]

You may have some nervous system disorder. Have you talked to a doctor about it?

 

[shibireru]

You may have some nervous system disorder. Have you talked to a doctor about it?

Thank you for the reply.

When you ask me whether I have talked to my doctor about "it", do you mean the fact that the combination of tyrosine and 5-htp makes me miserable rather than euphoric as a naive understanding of the mechanisms of the mind would suggest? In other words, what is the referent of "it"?

I actually did this for the first time today. It just so happens that I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow, but I am not hopeful that, if I shared the details of this experience with him, he'd have any meaningful answers for me. He doesn't seem to be very knowledgeable.

So, what nervous system disorder do you think I might have? (It's strange that it's almost a relief for to hear someone say that my problems might stem from a nervous system disorder. The usual answer is depression but the treatments officially endorsed and prescribed by medical orthodoxy for the treatment of depression have been a total waste of time and money. It's nice to hear a different answer for once.)



fixingahole-

I don't generally respond well to anticholinergics, but I'm pretty desperate at this point. I guess I'll give that a shot. Thanks for the advice and the reply.

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

The idea that depression is a result of low levels of neurotransmitters, which then need to be increased via supplements and such, is bogus and a massive simplification of depression. You haven't found the right meds yet. Maybe you haven't found the right doctor to help you figure 'em out. Maybe you'd do better with medication in combination of cognitive therapy.

Out of curiosity, how do you respond to mushrooms and lsd?

 

[shibireru]

The idea that depression is a result of low levels of neurotransmitters, which then need to be increased via supplements and such, is bogus and a massive simplification of depression. You haven't found the right meds yet. Maybe you haven't found the right doctor to help you figure 'em out. Maybe you'd do better with medication in combination of cognitive therapy.

I have found, as I said, that opiates go a long way to mitigate a majority of my psychiatric problems, but that's obviously not a long-term solution. First of all, there are few doctors who would prescribe opiates for depression and there are even fewer who would do it on a long-term basis. Secondly, of course, opiates are addictive, and plasticity and meta-plasticity would see to it unacceptably quickly that my depression should no longer be allayed by opiates. (There is a number of drugs out there that can not only prevent but also reverse tolerance to opiates but I have no access to them. The ones I am aware of are: 7-nitro-indazole, proglumide, and ibudilast.) Finally, opiates seem to temporarily leave me intellectually impoverished, reducing my IQ by at least 10 points; so it's hard to imagine that I could pursue what I wished, so infatuated as I would be by the opiates. (Although I can't do anything now, either...)

Can you recommend to me some combination of substances which you think might help or which you know to be beneficial in a majority of cases?

Out of curiosity, how do you respond to mushrooms and lsd?

I have never tried either of them, the reasons being two: a) I don't have access to them (I have very few social contacts because of my depression, social phobia, avoidant personality disorder, and body dysmorphic disorder) and b) the idea of losing control and becoming even temporarily psychotic is unbearable to me.

 

[shibireru]

I would just like to say:

I am sorry if this is in the wrong subforum, but I went to Basic Drug Discussion first and... everyone there seemed a bit retarded. I'm not trying to suggest that I am not stupid and uninformed myself, but I'd rather not get my advice from people like that.

If the placement of my thread is a problem, I'd be happy to see it deleted or moved by a mod.

 

[seep]

...I have very few social contacts because of my depression, social phobia, avoidant personality disorder, and body dysmorphic disorder...

The more you tell yourself this, the less likely you'll be to excavate yourself from the hole you see yourself in. A good therapist may be far more effective than a good psychiatrist in your case.

Remember also that many psychiatrists are psychiatrists and not, say, neurologists or endocrinologists because of their relatively weaker aptitude for neurochemistry. Don't expect them to be archangels: their idea of a diagnosis is a score on a questionnaire. (I'm generalizing; there are some very astute psychiatrists around, but they are the minority).

The prescription meds you mentioned are either serotonergic or dopaminergic. You also mentioned you had bad reactions to anticholinergics. Why not try boosting your acetylcholine levels? You may be able to find DMAE at a nutritional supply store. I found that when I take 100 mg DMAE I don't even need my Adderall. This won't do much for your anxiety but it may boost your mood and it'll definitely increase your mental and physical energy and practically eliminate the anhedonia you complain of. I had to discontinue mine because it was producing some weird sexual side effects, but it may work for you.

Treating a mood disorder with opiates is an incredibly stupid idea.

 

[MurphyClox]

Treating a mood disorder with opiates is an incredibly stupid idea.

Seconded!!

Although I can confirm the antidepressant effects of for example tramadol in the short term, such a therapeutical approach is completely stupid. Physical and psychological dependence can be expected. You will change only one problem for another, and when stopping the opioids (haha...try this after daily intake for 4 weeks), the depression may come back...

Peace! Murphy

 

[MurphyClox]

Does anyone have any words of advice for me here. I am fucking hating life. I thought that this combination of substances might do something for me, but it only made me feel worse just as every other substance I have taken to alleviate my depression as done (prozac, zoloft, wellbutrin, marijuana, citalopram, escitalopram, etc...). I really need help.

I would guess (and I think that this is generally accepted, too) that a purely pharmaceutical approach is not the right thing. Most antidepressants need several weeks to work as supposed; have you tried such long trials?

And if I learned one thing here at Bluelight, than that not every antidepressant is suited for everybody resp. every kind of depression. It is worth to continue the search for the right remedy, but only as long as one uses these substances properly. I do not imply that you actually used your meds in such a sloppy way, but just try to point to some obstacles that get regularly overlooked.

In any case is psychotherapeutical assistance HIGHLY recommended. I've personally seen several persons go through total mental breakdowns, accompanied by preliminary and follow-up depressive phases. The best results were indeed achieved with the aforementioned psychological help. Antidepressants played an important, albeit only minor role in the whole therapy.

Peace! Murphy

 

[theWorldWithin]

Look the bottom line is eventually you will have to man up and deal with life or hide behind meds and diagnoses until you wither away. The best thing you can do is confront you fears and begin to try to interact with people. I understand this is incredibly difficult with depression and many people will avoid you but this is all the more reason that you must make the initiative. Do you have any meaningful hobbies? Try to join a group with common interests so the focus is on a neutral topic and not you as a person. Get out of you house and into the gym, I cannot stress this enough. Have you tried benzos for the little bit of push you may need to pick yourself up?

In the end if you want to pull out of hell its going to be a long hard road that no one will walk for you. Its in your hands to change this, no meds or doctors can solve it, they can only offer minor assistance along the way. Until you come to terms with your fate being in your hands do not expect alot of progress from medicine.

 

[shibireru]

The more you tell yourself this, the less likely you'll be to excavate yourself from the hole you see yourself in. A good therapist may be far more effective than a good psychiatrist in your case.

Remember also that many psychiatrists are psychiatrists and not, say, neurologists or endocrinologists because of their relatively weaker aptitude for neurochemistry. Don't expect them to be archangels: their idea of a diagnosis is a score on a questionnaire. (I'm generalizing; there are some very astute psychiatrists around, but they are the minority).

The prescription meds you mentioned are either serotonergic or dopaminergic. You also mentioned you had bad reactions to anticholinergics. Why not try boosting your acetylcholine levels? You may be able to find DMAE at a nutritional supply store. I found that when I take 100 mg DMAE I don't even need my Adderall. This won't do much for your anxiety but it may boost your mood and it'll definitely increase your mental and physical energy and practically eliminate the anhedonia you complain of. I had to discontinue mine because it was producing some weird sexual side effects, but it may work for you.

Treating a mood disorder with opiates is an incredibly stupid idea.

It just so happens that two weeks ago or so I purchased some centrophenoxine - a conjugate of dimethylethanolamine and parachlorophenoxyacetate. It made me feel stupid and more depressed. Perhaps that's because I had too much cholinergia going on? I had taken it with alpha-glyceryl-phosphoryl choline and cytidine diphosphate choline...

I only took it that one time. The experience was so unpleasant that I've hesitated to take it again. I think I'll try taking it today without mixing it with other supplements. (<--- That may be the crux of my problem... the mixing of things...)

 

[Tsukasa]

You need friends, and ones that are non-judgemental, understanding, trustworthy, and care about you. Since you're mental condition makes it difficult for you to form social bonds with others you need to work on treating it.

Firstly you will need to become motivated to do this. Sit down one day, relax, and think of all the fun things you will be able to do with friends. Go places, fool around, laugh, help each other out with various kinds of problems, have intimate connections, love, affection, etc.

Then think what's at the root of your social phobia or avoidant personality. It has to be fear thats limiting you. Observe your mind and how it reacts in certain situations and acknowledge it. "What you resist persists, what you look at disappears". Learn what triggers the reactions of the different manifestations of fear. Try to gain control over this primitive mechanism, so it won't hinder you in social situations, but can still serve you if ever need be.
This site may help you: http://www.swamij.com/witnessing.htm

On a more gross level, think of whats creating the fear. Do you have low self esteem due to physical appearance or other aspects of your self? Try to work on whatever it is you feel insecure about. If you need someone to talk to feel free to PM me or IM me on AIM. I'm no therapist, but I can definately relate and give advice of things that were helpful for me in solving these kinds of problems. I am very motivated to help anyone with anything.

I'm sure theirs atleast a couple like-minded people in your school that share same interests such as japanese culture and anime. I have an otaku aspect in my personality too, and have met a wonderful person in my school just like that. Getting acquainted with people is supposed to be a spontaneous thing. I've also found that the more acquantences (sp?) or friends and frequency of social interactions you have, the more easy socializing becomes. It's sort of like "warming up" to people. You can interpret that last statement in two ways.

 

[expothead]

Isn't a gram of L-Tyrosine a little excessive?

I recently (re-)started this combination: 100mg 5-HTP + 300mg N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine (taken together in the morning) and found it 'levelled' me out considerably. Of course it could be completely psychosomatic. Thinking was improved, mood stabilised and (although the jury's still out on this) pot-induced anxiety seemed majorly reduced.

 

[shibireru]

Do you have any meaningful hobbies? Try to join a group with common interests so the focus is on a neutral topic and not you as a person.

The only thing which I can say I enjoy at all and actively study is Japanese, but I live in Utah and there are precious few individuals here to take an interest in anything remotely intellectual, let alone Japanese, and I wouldn't know where to find such people (contrary to expectation, you don't find them at the universities, since intelligent people usually attend illustrious, out-of-state schools). Those whom I've found who take an interest in Japanese are the kawaii-desu kind - you know, the ones who watch anime, learn a few prosaic Japanese phrases, and conclude that they know Japanese...

Get out of you house and into the gym, I cannot stress this enough. Have you tried benzos for the little bit of push you may need to pick yourself up?

I exercise at home with free weights... Does that count? Or does the exercise need to be aerobic?

Until you come to terms with your fate being in your hands do not expect alot of progress from medicine.

I mean to say what I am about to say with the utmost respect, so please don't take offense, but... the reason why aerobic exercise is therapeutic is that it raises the levels of various substances within the brain which have an antidepressant effect, such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor and endorphins (endogenous morphine). The same is true of social interaction. And yet you say that the answer probably doesn't lie in medicine. The extent to which a person feels happy is always and completely contingent upon his neurochemical make-up; there are less and more efficient ways of changing the constitution of the mind so that one should feel happier. You seem to be one of those people who are disposed to think that the hardest, longest, most indirect and most grueling path to success in necessarily and intrinsically superior to the path which leads one to the same place but induces far less injury and demands far less time in transit.

I'm looking to cut out the middle man here and find the path of least resistance. I'm not convinced yet that there are no pharmaceuticals or supplements out there that could alleviate my depression. Bear with me... If my experimentation should reveal that the path I am taking is a dead-end, I will return here and apologize to you profusely and diffusely and in a mindset of total humility.

 

[shibireru]

You need friends, and ones that are non-judgemental, understanding, trustworthy, and care about you. Since you're mental condition makes it difficult for you to form social bonds with others you need to work on treating it.

Firstly you will need to become motivated to do this. Sit down one day, relax, and think of all the fun things you will be able to do with friends. Go places, fool around, laugh, help each other out with various kinds of problems, have intimate connections, love, affection, etc.

Then think what's at the root of your social phobia or avoidant personality. It has to be fear thats limiting you. Observe your mind and how it reacts in certain situations and acknowledge it. "What you resist persists, what you look at disappears". Learn what triggers the reactions of the different manifestations of fear. Try to gain control over this primitive mechanism, so it won't hinder you in social situations, but can still serve you if ever need be.
This site may help you: http://www.swamij.com/witnessing.htm

On a more gross level, think of whats creating the fear. Do you have low self esteem due to physical appearance or other aspects of your self? Try to work on whatever it is you feel insecure about.

If you need someone to talk to feel free to PM me or IM me on AIM. I'm no therapist, but I can definately relate and give advice of things that were helpful for me in solving these kinds of problems.

The issue is that I think myself very ugly and that, being ugly, no one will accept me or wish to form a deep and affectionate relationship with me. Afraid of rejection, I avoid in-person interaction with others at all costs. This is the source of my disability and most of my depression.

It can't be denied that humans, even the most noble and least superficial of them, prefer to form relationships with the most advanced - intellectually, physically, emotionally - specimens they can find. I'm just not selling what others are in the market for and so I remain friendless. Even if I made some friends, I would probably lose them the moment they found someone better than me who were willing to habitually tolerate their company. Recognizing this, I yearn to be as beautiful as possible so that the friends I should obtain should not leave me for someone better. (Even straight men tend not to socialize with uglier men: if you look at a group of straight male friends, you'll find almost certainly that they are all of nearly the same level of attractiveness, suggesting that they are attracted, if only in a non-sexual way, to good-looking men and repulsed by ugly men.)

I've thought about plastic surgery, but that would probably make me look worse and, more importantly, I don't have the money for something like that.


Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond to my whinging.


P.S. I have by now, I warrant, completed the image of a curmudgeon who opposes and contradicts others because he gets some sick pleasure from doing so. That's not the case. I am sorry for being so difficult, but this is a complex issue that isn't amenable to being solved with any great ease.

 

[shibireru]

How old are you? Maybe if you're heading off to university/getting a job some time in the future the change of scenery will be beneficial. It's easy to get depressed when you know you're stuck in some situation you don't like

23. I dropped out of High School at the age of 17 because I was just too depressed to keep going. In the last six years I have done.... almost nothing. I don't have a driver's license, car, job, friends, GED... any motivation more than allows me to take my problems to you guys in an attempt to educe some information from you by which I might improve my life. Perhaps it's naive to assume that there exists a solution? Some problems are surely insoluble, right?

 

[Tsukasa]

well one things for sure. Their is no medication out their that will make you happy, unless you have something to be happy about (unless the reason you're unhappy is because you have some neurotransmitter deficiency). AD's or almost any drug will only make it easier to become happy. I know this from experience.

 

[Advanc3d]

I actually recommend you to try nootopics

Try Piracetam with choline precursors (Lecithin + Vitamin B5) for about atleast a month of daily use.

DMAE is not that good as it strips your liver so it can get methylated in to choline.

also grab some Deprenyl, it is a MAO-B inhibitor, it does wonders for motivation for most people

Tyrosine is not a good dopamine precursor since its favoured to be converted to NE rather than DA. i have had positive results from L-dopa in combination with Deprenyl, Natural Decarboxylase Inhibitor and Natural COMT Inhibitor.

5-htp loses its "good" feeling after continue use which is probably because of the fact that the Amino Acid Decarboxylase is rate limiting in the brain and can get depleted over time

just remember, it is always best to supplement with Serotonin Precursors at night and Dopamine Precursors in following morning

Also long term Ginkgo use will raise neurotransmitters since its a mild MAO Inhibitor


SSRI's are really bad. if you didnt know, it will cause overall serotonin depletion in long term since it stops the reuptake, meaning excess serotonin will be metabolised rather than taken back recycled

 

[shibireru]

well one things for sure. Their is no medication out their that will make you happy, unless you have something to be happy about (unless the reason you're unhappy is because you have some neurotransmitter deficiency). AD's or almost any drug will only make it easier to become happy. I know this from experience.

That rings true to me.

I think my depression has a strong circumstantial and neurotransmitter-dysregulation/deficiency component. (I'm thinking possibly a endorphin deficiency or maybe even excess levels of enkephalins or dynorphins.)

I actually recommend you to try nootopics

Try Piracetam with choline precursors (Lecithin + Vitamin B5) for about atleast a month of daily use.

I have some Aniracetam. Will that work? And what about glutamatergic excitotoxicity? Racetams do activate AMPA-subtype glutamate receptors, right?

also grab some Deprenyl, it is a MAO-B inhibitor, it does wonders for motivation for most people

I was actually thinking about getting some Deprenyl. Where does one get that? Is it only available through prescription? Do doctors scruple to prescribe that?

Tyrosine is not a good dopamine precursor since its favoured to be converted to NE rather than DA. i have had positive results from L-dopa in combination with Deprenyl, Natural Decarboxylase Inhibitor and Natural COMT Inhibitor.

I have some Macuna Pruriens which is purported to contain levodopa. Doesn't really seem to do anything, even with a decarboxylase inhibitor. I'll add that to the list, though, of substances which I plan to give another try.

Anyone ever try tianeptine? Seems interesting. Not sure where to buy it... It has many very appealing properties: Whereas SSRIs tend to blunt emotions, Tianeptine is supposed to increase one's range and intensity of emotions; it is said not to have the anticholinergic effects of SSRIs; and it doesn't diminish libido. And it does all of this by - supposedly - enhancing reuptake of serotonin, being an SSRE. Too bad the FDA is so corrupt... (At this point, I am in the habit of just assuming that if the American public doesn't have access to a beneficial drug or has access to one that's harmful, it's because the FDA is corrupt to the core. It's a useful heuristic even if it's not always correct.)


So, let's see. In summary: Tianpetine; deprenyl; piracetam; levodopa; mdma (if I can find a dealer); take 5-HTP at night along with some diphenhydramine; 300-500mg dose of tyrosine in the morning; look into getting some therapy; try to find a reason to be happy. (Obviously I won't be doing all of these at once.)

Anything else?


Edit: Sorry, seep. That last item on the list looked like an insult to me because I'm gay and I don't think of pussy in that way. Hehehe

 

[Tsukasa]

"l-DOPA administration enhances 6-hydroxydopamine generation" 6-hydroxydopamine <--neurotoxin, destroys dopamine producing neurons, accelerates brain aging, accelerates parkinsons (they get symptomatic relief from l-dopa and some protection through increased dopamine but also more destruction). If you are healthy then your body will try to eliminate dopamine quicker via this pathway so you might get even more damage.

5-htp has some cardiotoxicity, so I would avoid using it too often or it'll build up in your valves and may lead to a heart attack.

As for the tyrosine, It'd be better to get L-phenylalanine, since you also get phenethylamine upped. I think you might have is an excess of B-endorphin and possibly the other opioids you've mentioned. High levels of b-endorphin have been associated with autism and aspergers syndrome. Your symptoms sound a little like those disorders. Maybe you should try an opiate antagonist and see if you get any better. If not, then atleast you'll know that the problem is not there.