• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

5-HT2B heart valve toxicity. What substances are biggest offenders? MDMA LSD 4-FA?..

Would this mean that theres no significant difference in 5HT2B activation between 100ug and 500ug of LSD ? Or am i just misinterpreting your post ?

I think if that were to be true then there would be no significant difference in a 100ug experience and a 500ug experience, instead what I think S2A is saying is that even if every serotonin receptor is bound this won't reduce the concentration of the drug that is still available to bind for other receptors too much because there is a very high drug to receptor ratio, so you might think about it as there being 100 LSD molecules for every one receptor, so you could see how even if you occupied every receptor it wouldn't affect LSD concentrations very much, so even if you blocked 2B with an antagonist it wouldn't increase activation of other receptors very much
 
I think if that were to be true then there would be no significant difference in a 100ug experience and a 500ug experience, instead what I think S2A is saying is that even if every serotonin receptor is bound this won't reduce the concentration of the drug that is still available to bind for other receptors too much because there is a very high drug to receptor ratio, so you might think about it as there being 100 LSD molecules for every one receptor, so you could see how even if you occupied every receptor it wouldn't affect LSD concentrations very much, so even if you blocked 2B with an antagonist it wouldn't increase activation of other receptors very much

True, and also the drug:receptor ratio is probably a lot higher than 100:1 as you mentioned (I know you just gave it as an example). There exist drug molecules probably several orders of magnitude more than receptors.
 
Interesting, I had no idea the drug to receptor ratio was really that high... I suppose with regards to low affinity drugs there must be very high concentrations...
 
Interesting, I had no idea the drug to receptor ratio was really that high... I suppose with regards to low affinity drugs there must be very high concentrations...

343 grams LSD = 1 mole even a 1 microgram dose is 10E+14 Molecules (6.02 E+23 avogadro's number (molecules in a mole) divided by 10E+09)

Only 10E+11 synapses in entire brain, so at normal LSD dose of 250 ug = 250,000 molecules for every synapse in the brain (not just the 5HT2A)
 
This topic is how rumors get started. This topic contains zero verifiable evidence normal psychedelic usage results in valvular heart disease. Taking Fen-Phen (often in combination with Redux) every day is radically different than taking psychedelics infrequently. Most frequent psychedelic users only take the drugs about once each week.

The normal psychedelic user takes psychedelics only a few occasions during their lives.

Unless you're taking high doses of psychedelics every day the risks are probably minimal. I'll say nothing more..
 
Fuckin 'ell!

Autism Squeaks are NOT to be considered a reliable source of anything but propaganda, hatefulness, and the breeding of wankers of the worst possible kind.

The lot of them need rounding up and boiling in acid. these are the pricks that came up with that AWFUL video 'autism every day', where a mother of a young girl, fulminated about how awful life was and how much of an abhorrent abomination her own kid was, and how much she wished she could off the pair of them.

What happened because of it? katie McCarron, a young autie girl was murdered by her fucking mother because of it. Drove the pair of them off a bridge.

When her blog was still up, 'RettDevil' tore the bastards to shreds, in a a heartfelt and heartwarmingly vicious eulogy for Katie, and tore strips off the rotten carcass of her mother. (thanks kassiane!, one of the most heartwarming tributes to anyone who truly deserved it I've ever read. Love ya girl!:))

Thats what autism squeaks is REALLY about, behind all their guff about making the world better for us. Fuck the bastards. These are verminous scum not quite, but not far off the caliber of wakefield and the arch-cunts behind the judge rotenberg center.
 
Autism Squeaks are NOT to be considered a reliable source of anything but propaganda, hatefulness, and the breeding of wankers of the worst possible kind.

Your (largely correct) criticism of Autism Squeaks doesn't change the fact that the other two sources that shugenja posted are academic.

It is the scientific consensus that autistics have higher serotonin levels in their blood and here is a meta study to prove it:

Blood serotonin levels in autism spectrum disorder: a systematic review and meta-analysis

Significantly higher 5-HT levels in autistic patients compared to controls were recorded both in whole blood (WB) [O.R.=4.6; (3.1-5.2); P=1.0×10(-12]), and in platelet-rich plasma (PRP) [O.R.=2.6 (1.8-3.9); P=2.7×10(-7)]
 
Your (largely correct) criticism of Autism Squeaks doesn't change the fact that the other two sources that shugenja posted are academic.

It is the scientific consensus that autistics have higher serotonin levels in their blood and here is a meta study to prove it:

Blood serotonin levels in autism spectrum disorder: a systematic review and meta-analysis


Even the autism squeaks mentioned the academic study by name.

Furthermore, ASD persons are likely to have polymorphisms in the SERT encoding gene that encode for a much more functional SERT -- pulling the serotonin out of the cleft very quickly.

This leads to hypersensitivity of the serotonin receptors, as well as the structural brain changes seen in ASD.

Current theory proposes this mechanism causes the sensitivity to stimuli.
.
The latest research points to a significant dysregulation of dopamine and SERT
 
I didn't mean to imply the secondary sources were de facto shitty, just that AutSqueaks are really really not to be trusted in and of themselves. One of the most repugnant, ginormous bunch of utter fetid smegma-gargling dicknibblers ever to have befouled the air the rest of us have, regrettably, to share with the bastards. I just felt it needed pointing out that they are not in the slightest above spewing out hateful, billious pseudoscientific quackery and crap. Behaving as though they are a supportive and beneficient organization who care about autistic people is utterly reprehensible, disgusting behavior when what they REALLY want, is to see a world where we are all detected as foetuses and aborted accordingly, as happened, sickeningly, and still happens to could-have-been people with down syndrome. AutSqueaks would just LOVE to be able to have a part in prenatal testing, and thus making it possible for doctors, midwives etc. to pressure mothers to abort us. Quite frankly the thought makes me sick to my stomach. Not to mention furious, for it (prenatal testing for autism) is an abomination, and a thing which should not be.

Its one thing to be able to diagnose such things as Tay-Sachs, batten disease and other such lysosomal storage diseases, and ensure that such foetuses do not come to term. Those with incurable and utterly terrible diseases that result in a short life
of nothing but suffering and misery before death eventually, mercifully supervenes. But quite another when who is to be born, are people like us, and like those with Down syndrome, who indeed I am perfectly happy to call kin, despite their not being on the autism spectrum (as a result of the trisomy that is). Its something like 80%+ of down syndrome babies who are killed before they have the chance to be born. And minus sometimes physical complications like holes in the heart it doesn't mean a lifetime of misery and suffering FOR THE PERSON BORN, and quite frankly, if the only 'suffering' is due to a parent or parents feeling like they didn't get the perfect baby they were owed by god, or nature or whatever else, then thats their problem, it should never be ours. And in any case, they are mistaken, and probably not less for being exposed to the putrid muck espoused by Autism Squeaks:(

What should we on the spectrum expect, if there is such an abhorrent monstrosity as prenatal testing for autism (WHY precisely? because it cannot, and should not, be changed if detected, so the only reason possible, is to make abortion easier. It certainly is not and won't be something capable of benefiting US. Its for the parents, not for the gestating person-in-potentiae. If there is misery, its because it is being heaped upon heads, the owners of which are told they are somehow less than perfect, whole, decent, equal human beings. And that disgusts me beyond words, as it should, and when we get the chance to learn of the wider autistic community, it does, every last single autie, the aspies and the one girl with Rett's that I know, we ALL are pissed off and none of us that I know of, bar perhaps 3-4 exceptions TOTAL, over the entire time I have been active online as a member of the various spesh folk forums, the ones run for and importantly IMO, also BY us, have agreed with AutSqueaks, that we are damaged beings etc, etc. And those people who have, seem to have had that message inculcated in to them by parents and family, which cannot but help destroy people's self-esteem, and for no possible benefit in so doing.

The rest of us, whilst yes, its true that being autistic can come with challenges and some uncomfortable crap (such as, for example, when my old man wipes down the lightweight portable table that sits before my mother's wheelchair so she can eat etc., the texture of the surface is such that he now warns me he is going to do it, so I can jam a finger in each ear, or take it as a cue to leave the room and have a cigarette in the kitchen, and he's gotten a plastic/rubberized large spoon for cooking, when things like baking are on the agenda, because I cannot abide the repulsive coarse-grained texture of that particular wood on my fingers. Just like I have to, if ever I buy myself, or am bought, an ice-cream that comes on a stick, hold it in the packaging, wrapped round the stick, because the texture goes right through me, like notes from an out of tune violin with rusty strings, played by means of a bow strung with the rotting hide of a terminally diseased puff adder)

And yes, I take meds, some of which are for that reason, well one of them is, some are for other things but act similarly, and or have improved various bits and pieces as a side benefit. I take clonidine to prevent my overloading and it works very well for me. Thats the only one I take specifically for the explicit purpose of anything autie-related, but other stuff I'm on may as well be for it, in some respects, like the chlormethiazole I'm on for seizure prophylaxis, unrelated to autism, true enough but it does do a mighty fine job of combating difficulty getting to sleep, which is damn common in autistic people and aspies. Don't know about Rett girls, because I only know the one (lovely girl....not to mention hawt=D) but thats a respective sample of one, and as such not at all representative. Especially since shes a chimaera and as such, quite atypically expressive of Rett's.

Question is, is the source of the 5HT external to the BBB or otherwise, talking about the biosynthesis of the high blood levels of 5HT, is it peripheral AND central, or solely peripheral? 5HT doesn't cross the BBB if administered peripherally, so what
conclusions can be drawn solely from blood 5HT levels, are probably not of great importance to whats going on in the CNS. But of course that is making the assumption that the peripheral high levels don't also exist at similarly high concentrations (the CNS equivalent thereof, that is) on the other side of the BBB fence.

Haven't yet read the studies, will do though now.

More effective SERT would lead to less stimulation of presynaptic 5HT1a autoreceptors, and thus increased levels of 5HT released into synapses to compensate, would it not? does it also result in increased biosynthesis (in autistic subjects that is)
probably somewhat difficult to just pop in and take a look, seeing as how we are as unwilling as anybody else to have our heads cut open and microdialysis probes
 
More effective SERT would lead to less stimulation of presynaptic 5HT1a autoreceptors, and thus increased levels of 5HT released into synapses to compensate, would it not? does it also result in increased biosynthesis (in autistic subjects that is)
probably somewhat difficult to just pop in and take a look, seeing as how we are as unwilling as anybody else to have our heads cut open and microdialysis probes

It's apparently all 5HT receptors.

I don't know that there is a mechanism for the vesicle to release more serotonin because SERT works too well.

Everything I have read points to hypersensitivity, and lack of (or abnormalities in) neuronal/synaptic connections because of the low brain serotonin levels during development.

Of interest are anecdotal reports that people on the spectrum don't lose the magic from MDMA.
 
I didn't mean that more SERT would lead directly to either more vesicle release or more release per. But rather if there are more transporters there will be, de facto, more reuptake (once the acute effect of the MDxx has ceased)
More reuptake means less serotonin in the synaptic cleft, and thus less stimulation of the autoreceptor for 5HT, the presynaptic populations of 5HT1a. Autoreceptors act as negative feedback mechanisms, usually regulating the transmitter they bind although not always. The histamine autoreceptor is a heteroreceptor for instance IIRC,and regulates a host of neurotransmitters other than just histamine itself.

But for the typical common-or-garden autoreceptor, when transmitter levels are too high then they end up binding and activating their autoreceptor, as agonists which is seen by the body as telling it theres too much of XYZ neurotransmitter, release
less of it. A good example of how drugs affect them would be at the adrenergic autoreceptor, alpha2. Clonidine is the typical agonist ligand, coincidentally I take both it, and its more muscle relaxant relative tizanidine. Stops me overloading pretty well (the clonidine that is) whilst the tizanidine I use to treat muscle spasms resulting from nerve injury, its not ever going to heal on its own, without the advent of some new medical tech or other, and the result is permanent, unceasing stiffness, spasticity
constant cramp that rarely ever goes away, and is on its worse days, extremely painful, and the only other thing I can do about it, is take whopping amounts of morphine and oxy which as you can well imagine, comes with a hefty price tag, not financially since I do not have to pay for it, my medical treatments come free, to me at least. Just as well, because I'd not be able to afford them if they did not.

The effects of either drug are sedation, myorelaxation (much more so from tizanidine, clonidine is a far less effective muscle relaxer but far more potent as a hypotensive agent), decreased secretion of bodily fluids (causes a fair bit of drymouth)
decreased ability to reach orgasm during sexual activity, which might well put some people off the drug/s, although personally its completely irrelevant to me, I care so little about sex that I have not been able to be bothered in a bit short of two decades, so that particular side effect doesn't bother me much, or indeed, whatsoever. If sexual contact happens, it happens, I won't complain about the opportunity to get in bed with some cute kanners/aspie/rett's lady but I am not about to expend
effort to go out hunting for one to meet, I KNOW where to look, but I just, well, haven't done so.

The prototypical antagonist at adrenergic autoreceptors on the other hand, is yohimbine. And it is FOUL stuff. Along with mirtazepine its probablyl the most awful drug thats ever gone into me. Causes severe anxiety, TERRIBLE akathisia, rigor, shaking, fine motor tremor and myoclonus. Feels like it would cause seizures in anything but very small quantities. You could not pay me enough to take it again. Hell I'd probably even tell someone where they could stuff it if they offered me lab equipment and supplies if I did take it. Ew...just..ew. There are no other words to describe how fucking noxious it is. Got an awful shock once, aftere taking some iporuru and not realizing that the root bark contains yohimbine; felt like absolute shit on a burger bun for hours, just wanting either for it to end, or to drop dead.
 
I didn't mean that more SERT would lead directly to either more vesicle release or more release per. But rather if there are more transporters there will be, de facto, more reuptake (once the acute effect of the MDxx has ceased)


The SERT protein simply works better because of the mutation. There is not more SERT, simply 'hyperactive' SERT that over re-uptakes.

here is a paper on knock-in mice (mice with a transfected ALA56 gene encoding SERT)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3325657/
 
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