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4-po-met

Thanatos said:
I am heavily considering using a mushroom substrate impregnated with MET in order to end with mushrooms containing it's 4-phosphoroxy analog/homolog? And then completing an extraction to the point whether I will hopefully precipitate 4-PO-MET with the help of an organic chemist/friend.
I've read about the phosphorization phenomena many times, particularly using DiPT and DPT, but I'd rather not waste my time assembling the required components and setting up the perfect environment if it is impossible for some reason.

If anyone could give me tips on what salt vs freebase I should use, the quantity of MET in the substrate, as well as cultured mushroom strains known for creating almost pure pscilocybin rather than pscilocin I would greatly appreciate it.
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I don't know if you've ever used the 'dunk and roll' technique? If so, just add your MET to the solution in which you would dunk your cakes. Wouldn't matter if it was the salt or freebase form as long as it was soluble since you're not going to be adding anything else which could or would alter the pH. The cake will buffer. If you're going bulk then obviously it's a different procedure. How much MET to add? To the point of making a saturated solution. This will be wasteful of MET, but will guarantee you have substrate that is saturated with MET for a first flush.

I'll give further detais if neccessary.

Tom
 
Thantos, extracting your end product will be the easiest part, you do it EXACTLY like DMT from MHRB. The HO/PO functional group on the DMT molecule will make no difference when you extract the base product from your shrooms. Standard A/B extraction.

As for whether to usea salt or a base...IDK for sure, but a salt would make more sense from a solubility standpoint...IMHO.

Identifying your end product will be much more difficult...a gas chromatograph or spectrum analyzer will be helpful. =D

Personally, I'D shoot the MET and eat the shrooms.

Oh, one question, Why, when you have access to an organic chemist, would you: A) Consult a forum.
B) not make some LSD and FUCK the shrooms...?
 
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Where did you come up with the HO/PO not mattering?

Read Hofmann's research on mushroom extraction, psilocybin can apparently be extracted fine with methanol although the work-up is an issue apparently due to mushroom gunk being extracted along which seems more or less inseparable unless one has a chromatography column. I actually had a plan earlier to try and investigate alternative methods people can use at home, there was interest here and at Mycotopia where I started a long-ass post about the theory. Then Mycotopia went offline for quite some time due to upgrading.

Psilocin apparently is a bit more tricky to extract and no you cannot A/B it because it will really fuck with the indolol function.

So... I coincidentally looked into this and distinctly recall that it does matter whether it is a phosphoryl ester.

Also: 8) Yeah like every organic chemist has the materials and motivation to seriously break the law and make acid.
 
yeah, you can get the 4-PO -DMT out, but you need to use a base and solvent to isolate it from the rest of the water soluble crap in there...much of the phosoryloxy WILL be degraded to hydroxyl, but YES, YOU DAMN SURE CAN DO IT!
So the organic chemist doesn't mind breaking the law to do the shroom thing, but nothing else huh?...yeah, rrright.
 
Just don't use water to begin with, that would save you a lot of headaches? Water (with acetic acid) has been shown to be inferior to alcohols like methanol, by Hofmann among others, in the same research I mentioned. Let alone the losses suffered by trying to purify by basification.
But I think we have no way of knowing if your way to purify would be of any help if methanol is used to extract, current knowledge certainly seems to tell us that a column is needed so doesn't it seem highly doubtful that some lye would just fix the problem?

About the LSD vs. mushrooms: some mushroom chemistry is done much more casually, there is no comparison. Not much equipment is needed for it just like with most other extractions. The alkaloids are just being processed, not sythesized. Breaking the law because one is experimenting with mushrooms is on another order of magnitude than breaking the law getting the stuff you need to make LSD. Totally different operations. But believe what you will.
 
since you are into Hofmann:[h=3]Experimental[/h]A representative sample of 2 to 10g of dried mushrooms is ground to a fine powder by mortar and pestle. The powder is mixed with 100 mL of dilute acetic acid in a 250-mL beaker. The pH is readjusted to pH 4 with glacial acetic acid. After standing 1 h, the beaker is placed in a boiling water bath for 8 to 10 min or until the internal temperature of the acid mixture reaches 70°C. The beaker is removed and cooled to room temperature under running water. The acid mixture is separated from the mushroom powder by suction filtration using glass wool. The filtrate is brought to pH 8 with concentrated ammonium hydroxide and quickly extracted with two 50-mL portions of diethyl ether. Gentle mixing instead of shaking should be used to prevent an emulsion. The ether is dried over sodium sulfate, filtered, and evaporated under nitrogen with no applied heat.
Crude psilocin will appear as a greenish residue. Recrystallization from chloroform/heptane (1:3) yields white crystals. The resulting powder can then be submitted to infrared and mass spectral analyses.

That is acid/base..................
 
I didn't say he didn't try it, I said he compared methods and solvents and found this to be inferior. To be able to do that comparison, obviously he would have to try it as one of the methods / workups.

Yeah I know that the above quote is on the Rhodium archive but I am talking about the actual literature used, pretty sure it's in the references for it (#2 I think).

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3183172.pdf

Personally I would avoid water with psilocin because I would fear that psilocin in water turns into the notorious dark goo and the water is damn hard to evaporate. I don't think evacuation of the non-polar solvent to yield the freebase is the answer either, that would be very unstable.

Have you done aqueous extractions yourself that didn't yield some sort of gummy gunk? If so please describe how it went.

Check this out as well: http://www.fanaticus.com/mycoalki.htm
and notice again how alcohol is used.
 
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Ismene said:
So you're going to inject the MET into a mess of mushroom mycelium and hope that appears in the mushroom when they fruit?

I dunno if that would really work entheo. I think I'd go for injecting it into some sclerotica instead and hope that somehow does it. I imagine it's going to be pretty poor yields whatever you do.
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There is substantial research I read somewhere that indicates that mushrooms will take other unsubtituted tryptamines (DiPT, MET, etc) and will use its own processes that it uses to end up with 4-HO-DMT and 4-PO-DMT when grown normally in order to produce the 4-HO-XXX and 4-PO-XXX of the tryptamine you fed it. Very fascinating. I believe the example actually used (successfully) was DiPT, ie, 4-HO-DiP T and 4-PO-DiPT were created by the mushrooms, rather than the standard 4-HO-DMT/4-PO-DMT.

I hope you do this, as I am extremely curious to see what the subjective differences are between the 4-HO and 4-PO of the other tryptamines. Over the years I have experimented enough to realize that there are distinct differences between the 4-HO and 4-AcO esters of each of the tryptamines. I see no reason why 4-PO-XXX wouldn't also be subjectively different from 4-HO-XXX.

Chemistry is so cool. :)
 
Xorkoth said:
I hope you do this, as I am extremely curious to see what the subjective differences are between the 4-HO and 4-PO of the other tryptamines. Over the years I have experimented enough to realize that there are distinct differences between the 4-HO and 4-AcO esters of each of the tryptamines. I see no reason why 4-PO-XXX wouldn't also be subjectively different from 4-HO-XXX.

Chemistry is so cool. :)
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I doubt that will be any difference btwn the 4-ho and 4-po tryps. 4-po has to be converted to 4-ho before it gets inside your head, unlike 4-aco which gets to your brain very easily...hence to differences btwn 4-ho and 4-aco.

So, as far as your brain is concerned, 4-po IS 4-ho.

...and Solipsis, no I haven't done an aqueous extraction from shrooms that wasn't gooey...that's why you basify and extract with NPS. That way, the goo stays in the water and the psilocybin/psilocin comes across as a base product. After you are done, all, or nearly all, your psilocybin will be psilocin. To keep it from degrading further you would probably want to make a salt.
I made meth for many years and there is almost ALWAYS a way to extract your stuff...I've pulled dropped batches out of dirt, pulled missed shots out of blood, pulled unmetabolized drugs from piss....why?....because I CAN.
 
I doubt that will be any difference btwn the 4-ho and 4-po tryps. 4-po has to be converted to 4-ho before it gets inside your head, unlike 4-aco which gets to your brain very easily...hence to differences btwn 4-ho and 4-aco.
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My thoughts exactly, the 4-po is merely a pro-drug while 4-aco's are "said" to be pro-drugs but I call horse shit on that, the difference between 4-ho's and 4-aco's is quite vast IME. But then again if the 4-po version is metabolized slower or more gradually this may have some effect on the trip...idk.
 
That's why I wonder if 4-PO-XXX is really "just" a prodrug. It was said of the 4-AcO-trypamines too, people ridiculed those who tried to claim the effects were substantially different, and then said it was just because of different rates of absorption into your brain due to conversion times, but I think by now many of us have pretty much debunked that. I just wonder, perhaps it IS just a prodrug, I have never tried 4-PO-DMT by itself. I will say that pure 4-HO-DMT by itself is different from mushrooms by a fair bit, though the baeocystin and perhaps others could also have an effect there.
 
I thought it was documented that the liver just chops off the phosphorus naturally whereas the 4-aco to 4-ho claim was just a mere theory as this was apparently the case with one of the 4-subs, I wanna say it was ethocin but I can't remember. Either way it doesn't hurt to find out for ourselves. Has baocystin ever been isolated, ingested, and had it's effects documented?
 
Yeah I want to find out for ourselves. :)

I believe baeocystin has been isolated and ingested, it's possibly in TiHKAL, but I can't remember for sure. I know I've read short reports of it somewhere. I seem to recall people felt most physical effects which seemed similar to some of the physical sensations you get from mushrooms, but people didn't experience much else from it.
 
Xorkoth said:
Yeah I want to find out for ourselves. :)

I believe baeocystin has been isolated and ingested, it's possibly in TiHKAL, but I can't remember for sure. I know I've read short reports of it somewhere. I seem to recall people felt most physical effects which seemed similar to some of the physical sensations you get from mushrooms, but people didn't experience much else from it.
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IMO substances, such as baeocystin and other "mildly active" or "nonactive" substances play a larger role than they are, often, given credit for.
People tend to forget, or give credence to, the role that synergy plays in many natural drugs.
For instance THC pills and weed are not likely to be the same, because of the myriad of other "nonactive" substances acting upon the THC...the same goes for shoroms vs isolated 4-po-dmt, ayahuasca versus extracted DMT taken with an MAOI...even extracted "full spectrum" DMT vs "refined and purified" DMT.
 
This thread was bullocks from the start. Only way to verify the original hypothesis was to send the end product for GCMS testing. No doubt the "organic chemist friend" would have been happy to help isolate and identify an illegal substance as well as extract and isolate said substance. ;)
 
Isn't there now research showing things like nbxx with 2cs and benzofuran analogues of trypts=
 
Yeah I couldn't find anything concrete on baeocystin, not even in TIHKAL but admittedly I only scoped out the psilocin/mushrooms entry as I was very tired last night. However, 4-HO-NMT has been released to the public a while back and if the liver does in fact chop off the phosphorus then this is what you should get. This thread below seems to support phuckingnutz' in that 4-HO-NMT seems to be basically inactive unless taken with psilocin according to Psood0nym, so in theory baeocystin should act similarly if not the same. Here's the thread:

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/321417-4-Ho-NMT
 
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