4-HO-tryptamines and 4-AcO-tryptamines leg tremor question

[Solipsis]

Straight and simple: if you have tried both 4-AcO tryptamines and 4-HO tryptamines of any kind, and if you have experienced leg tremors... which of the two types of tryptamines had a bigger tendency to produce them?

Please only answer if you have more experience than only 1 trip or so, that would allow for too much coincidence and static in the statistics.

 

[Thomas Davie]

Every single time I've tried 4-HO-DiPT.HCl I would get horrible, unstoppable leg shaking. Tremoring got worse in a dose dependent fashion from 8, 12, and 16mg. Happened every time I took it.

Every 4-AcO-DMT.fumarate trip I've taken there has been zero leg shaking (14-16 trips from 10-27mg ).

Tom

 

[Solipsis]

I'd like to add that the reason I made this poll is that from reading a lot of trip reports it seemed like one of the two types of tryptamines tended to cause a lot more leg tremor and uncomfortable body energy than the other one. Don't wanna bias anything by saying which one... but anyway clearing up more about the differences between 4-AcO's and 4-HO's would be very interesting to me because it tells us if there is any point to making esters like that.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Lol literally i cant, but this is what i mean, it wasnt the allyescaline it was the other shit he'd taken that gave him parkinsons rofl

 

[kyt]

Every single time I've tried 4-HO-DiPT.HCl I would get horrible, unstoppable leg shaking. Tremoring got worse in a dose dependent fashion from 8, 12, and 16mg. Happened every time I took it.

Every 4-AcO-DMT.fumarate trip I've taken there has been zero leg shaking (14-16 trips from 10-27mg ).

Tom

I am not sure if that is a fair comparison as the base tryptamine will have a greater impact than the subsitution on the effect profile of the substance?

Good to know though and I have heard 4-aco-dipt is less likely to produce tremors.

Personally more interested in 4-ho-mipt and aco-mipt comparisons, from what I understand the hydroxy has less side effects.

 

[Thomas Davie]

I am not sure if that is a fair comparison as the base tryptamine will have a greater impact than the subsitution on the effect profile of the substance?

Good to know though and I have heard 4-aco-dipt is less likely to produce tremors.

Personally more interested in 4-ho-mipt and aco-mipt comparisons, from what I understand the hydroxy has less side effects.

I'm aware that the 'DiPT' may have more relevance to my leg tremoring than the '4-HO', but this is the data I have. I do have some 4-HO-MiPT.fumarate that I will try eventually.

All I can say with certainty at the moment is that 4-HO-DiPT.HCl is not a good match for me.

Tom

 

[Solipsis]

I am not sure if that is a fair comparison as the base tryptamine will have a greater impact than the subsitution on the effect profile of the substance?

Good to know though and I have heard 4-aco-dipt is less likely to produce tremors.

Personally more interested in 4-ho-mipt and aco-mipt comparisons, from what I understand the hydroxy has less side effects.

I'm pretty sure I have read some reports on erowid of 4-AcO-DiPT involving leg tremors and weird uncomfortable body energy... seems a lot of us (that does not exclude me by the way) are going on the anecdotal evidence that we happen to have gathered, i.e. what we heard that incidentally happened, but does not really offer statistical relevance whatsoever.

By the first remark/sentence I assume you mean that the N-substitution (i.e. whether it is 4-xx-DET or 4-xx-MiPT etc) might mostly determine the side-effects profile, and not whether it is the 4-HO or an ester like 4-AcO, 4-PO, or 4-Pro etc.
That is an assumption we have no proof of as far as I can tell, and I started this meaning to try and find out more.

After making the thread I realized that mushrooms can also cause pretty weird side-effects like jelly legs, brain zaps and feeling as if one is wet / has wetted him or herself... I wouldn't be surprised if tremors are also very possible with them, I just never happened to hear about it explicitly or that I can recall.

Many people insist that 4-HO tryptamines and their corresponding 4-AcO esters are not simply interchangeable, but 4-AcO's are considerably more stable. Wouldn't it be pretty valuable to the scene if we knew how much of this is in our heads as biases, assumptions, etc?
If I were more free to do so, I would ask a friend to help me with a blind trial to see if I can differentiate between a 4-HO trypt and the corresponding 4-AcO in equimolar dosages, and if there would be subjective differences, to write down which ones.
Imagine if a few people would do such experiments it would perhaps offer convincing info...

And yeah disclosure: my suspicion is also that hydroxies have less side-effects... although acetoxies have smoother comeups and comedowns, also hydroxies seem to be able to be a bit more menacing and in your face visual probably because of the immediate action and straight-forward kinetics in the body.

 

[kyt]

If I were more free to do so, I would ask a friend to help me with a blind trial to see if I can differentiate between a 4-HO trypt and the corresponding 4-AcO in equimolar dosages, and if there would be subjective differences, to write down which ones.
Imagine if a few people would do such experiments it would perhaps offer convincing info...

And yeah disclosure: my suspicion is also that hydroxies have less side-effects... although acetoxies have smoother comeups and comedowns, also hydroxies seem to be able to be a bit more menacing and in your face visual probably because of the immediate action and straight-forward kinetics in the body.

As per interchangeability it really is impossible to say. Every trip is different even when you take the same drug every time... It's the small differences I guess that push me towards thinking they are not interchangeable. I don't really have enough experience to go from though. It certainly is true in the pharmaceutical world that acetylated pro-drugs have different pharmodynamics and pharmokinetics to their none acetylated counterparts.

Illuminati_boy did some data collection surveys (http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/249396-Survey-Data-Summaries-by-Compound) back in the day trying to statistically quantify effect profiles of the various phens and trypts. Unfortunately they were a lot harder to get hold of at the time so for some of the chems there is very limited data.

As per your thoughts they are similar to mine with one caveat; I think that with some tryptamines the ho substitute is better and with others the aco. This is purely based on what I have read though. Incase you were wondering my conclusions; aco-dipt, aco-met, ho-mipt, ho-det(also with this one the aco readily undergoes hydrolysis so ho is more stable? idk...).

Probably think psilocin/psilocybin is a bit nicer than psilacetin but I get pretty nauseous on all.

Anyway that is my 2 cents. Check the data collection done by IB. If you head over to the lyceaum forum there is also another post where he went through all the TRs on BL/erowid and tried to objectively gather data of RC effect profiles based on what he read. Again this was done some 9 years ago so there was a lot less information available. (http://www.lycaeum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4163.msg44193.html#msg44193 http://www.lycaeum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4163.msg44197.html#msg44197)

 

[Thomas Davie]

kyt; thanks for posting that link. Much appreciated. It would have been nice if the degree of severity of each effect was noted, but I realize the difficulty of this outside of a clinical setting. I do agree it is difficult for me to say whether it was the 'DiPT' or the 4-HO. I've noticed that repeated dosing @ the same level brings a fairly consistent response (at least for me, and at least with 4-AcO-DMT)

Solipsis, I really do think it was the DiPT, but then I've got no proof; certainly not until I try another 4-HO tryptamine. I do have 4-HO-MiPT, but it's going to be hard to take that when 4-AcO-DMT is the alternative. I thought that 4-HO-DiPT might give tremoring of some sort (I did read every entry on Erowid and have dogeared my copy of TIHKAL).

As a grad student I use to participate in drug trials for $, and sometimes I would be asked to fill out a response form like below


4-HO-DiPT 4-AcO-DMT

Euphoria 0 7
OEV 0 3
CEV 2 6
Introspection 0 8
Nausea 8 2
Diarrhea 9 0
Tremors 10 0

Anyways, you get the idea; we were passing along metered data without knowing what we had taken (although were told after the fact). Also would be lovely to get measured physiological numbers while on these drugs, but zero chance of that happening.

Hopefully more people will stick their head in here; and hopefully some will be people who've only tried 4-HO and 4-AcO tryptamines.

Tom

[edit I fucked up the formatting and am too high to attempt to correct, but there should be two columns of numbers, one under each drug]

 

[kyt]

kyt; thanks for posting that link. Much appreciated. It would have been nice if the degree of severity of each effect was noted, but I realize the difficulty of this outside of a clinical setting. I do agree it is difficult for me to say whether it was the 'DiPT' or the 4-HO. I've noticed that repeated dosing @ the same level brings a fairly consistent response (at least for me, and at least with 4-AcO-DMT)


Anyways, you get the idea; we were passing along metered data without knowing what we had taken (although were told after the fact). Also would be lovely to get measured physiological numbers while on these drugs, but zero chance of that happening.

Hopefully more people will stick their head in here; and hopefully some will be people who've only tried 4-HO and 4-AcO tryptamines.

Tom

[edit I fucked up the formatting and am too high to attempt to correct, but there should be two columns of numbers, one under each drug]

The metered scale is pretty useful. Well if anyone wants to re-do illuminati_boys research with some changes I am game for taking part

Theres some discussion over on df from the past which may be of interest in relation to the OP;

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29968
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11002

 

[sekio]

I'm of the mind that the 4-AcO drugs are just prodrugs for their 4-HO counterparts, but I don't take tryptamines because they don't play nice with me. So take that as you will...

 

[explodinguniverse]

My GF suffers from physical tremors. I've observed them more often, and more heavily on 4-ho-met than 4-aco-dmt. The latter def seems to be the gentler drug for her so far, but her 4-aco-dmt experience is still a little limited. My gut feeling being experienced with both (hundreds of trips), is that 4-aco-dmt is gentler in general, but I only get tremors at very high doses, and they have never really bothered me. These are the only two chemicals I have tried in this class.

 

[marmalad]

The only ones that i saw leg tremors was 4-aco-dmt 20mg and 5-meo-dalt 20mg. I wouldn't call tremores or bad physical sensations- more like muscle spams. But i get them from all the tripping substances, even al-lad. Just not as intense as the first ones...depending on the dosage. electrically charged Twitches -not tremors.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Very interesting reading through this thread!
I've done more 4-AcO-DMT than any other RC and it's never given me any tremors at any dosage (except when I combined it with Allylescaline).
4-AcO-DiPT gave me insane long lasting leg tremors and the same was experienced by everyone at that trial. Also, 4-HO-MiPT gives me some leg tremors at the onset but that's it.
4-AcO-MET has never given me any tremors at up ton@80mg but others reported some leg tremors at as little as 15mg.
Seems to be a very personal reaction if you'll get the tremors or not.

 

[marmalad]

The tremors slightly improved for me after takng 1g of fish oils. But can't vouch for it. But i can't really say it was tremors; more like electric impulses.

 

[Tryptamino]

Never gotten a tremor from a tryptamine, but they will always make my legs ache, sometimes pretty badly, towards the end of the trip. I've found his especially true with mushrooms, aMT, and ayahuasca.