4-FA quirks

[hollywood_cole]

a few random questions about 4-fluoroamphetamine...

1) 4-FA seems to absorb moisture from the surrounding air very readily. is there an easy way to mitigate this, and is there an easy way to dry it out if it's already picked up more moisture than you'd like? i stocked up, and stored away my supply in a couple of small amber glass vials, and in the year or so that i've had it (opening it for a few minutes on maybe five occasions) it's gotten noticeably stickier and fluffier (but also clumpier). which makes it harder to work with. i assume this is due to moisture absorption. i put a silica packet next to the vials where it's stored, but in retrospect maybe this just helps draw in more moisture from the surrounding air? i did it with the intent of it being a moisture sink for what was already present. also, could this tendency to absorb water be significant enough to affect weighing it out? e.g., is it possible that 10 mg of this damp 4-FA mixture actually contains 2 mg of water, or is the water content pretty negligible?

2) what's its solubility in water? a bit of googling found me an archived BL thread where (i think) sekio mentioned it likely being upwards of 30 mg/ml, but that was the closest thing to a solid claim i found. i recently tried dissolving at 20 mg/ml, and it took some stirring, but appeared to stay in solution after that. also, if the solution it were dissolved in were 1/6 ethanol (1/3 100 proof vodka, 2/3 water), would that affect the solubility in a significant negative way? the alcohol's for bactericidal purposes (and is actually the medium the 20 mg/ml was attempted in).

3) this is really pushing the limits of my very amateur pharmacology/pharmacokinetics (am i even using the right terms there?) understanding, but from what i've read so far, the following seems plausible: 4-FA is not metabolized, and is excreted unchanged. this may account in part for both its seemingly reduced neurotoxicity compared to MDMA (absence of toxic metabolites) and its relatively long duration (because it's not getting broken down into new and inactive molecules). plausible? if not, how wrong am i, and where'd my understanding go bad?

4) on a more subjective level, what do people think of as the target dosage ranges for this substance? i tried it for the first time about a year and a half ago, titrated up from about 5 mg, and have always been happy at 10 to 25 mg for recreational purposes (in combination with pot, and possibly some booze and/or a few mg of MXE). stimulants are not my favorite class of drug, FWIW, but i find them very nice for the right occasion. and maybe 5 mg with 5 mg of redosing for getting shit done purposes, the couple times i've used it for that. i don't think i've ever pushed it past 30 or 35 mg, and i don't think i'd have much desire to go past 45 or 50. but i read all these erowid reports where people are starting out at 100-something mg doses like it's MDMA, or 30 or 40 mg doses for productivity purposes, and i'm just a little mystified (and unsurprised at the negative effects people mention at those levels). even at 20 mg, i get that slight empathy boost, though i tend to agree with the idea that 4-FA isn't something you can really use as an MDMA substitute even if you use it at MDMA dosages. i guess i did read a thread or two on BL where people were reporting dosages and effects more in line with my own experience. and my friends' experiences seem to concur with mine, other than a couple of people who seem to have slightly high natural stimulant tolerances. also, in the same vein, how did 4-FA not get popular yet? at the very least, it's a nice clean stimulant.

alright, that's enough. hopefully this meets ADD standards, i'd like the generally higher quality input that this crowd tends to provide.

 

[naughtynicknails]

1) You could try leaving it in a closed container with a few of these https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=m...&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

2) I think it depends if you have freebase of HCl.. most is HCl i believe.. but sorry i don't know any more than that

3) I don't think the duration has much if any affect on if it's neurotoxic or not.. but i would have thought something that is neurotoxic and has a long duration would be worse.. due to the toxic chemical being in your body for longer.. but 4-FA is hardly neurotoxic..

4) I found 130mg to produce a similarish feeling to MDMA and lower doses of 30 - 50 produced affects similar to plain ol amphetamine.. I didn't get any negative affects from the higher dose.. even though i redosed with a similar amount a few hours later. In fact, i've never experienced negative affects from 4-FA (although i've only done it a few times)..

 

[naughtynicknails]

1) You could try leaving it in a closed container with a few of these https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=m...&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

2) I think it depends if you have freebase of HCl.. most is HCl i believe.. but sorry i don't know any more than that

3) I don't think the duration has much if any affect on if it's neurotoxic or not.. but i would have thought something that is neurotoxic and has a long duration would be worse.. due to the toxic chemical being in your body for longer.. but 4-FA is hardly neurotoxic..

4) I found 130mg to produce a similarish feeling to MDMA and lower doses of 30 - 50 produced affects similar to plain ol amphetamine.. I didn't get any negative affects from the higher dose.. even though i redosed with a similar amount a few hours later. In fact, i've never experienced negative affects from 4-FA (although i've only done it a few times)..

EDIT - Just realised we're in ADD

 

[Josair]

a few random questions about 4-fluoroamphetamine...

Ok, I'm not a chemist but I'll try to give some answers anyway

1) 4-FA seems to absorb moisture from the surrounding air very readily. is there an easy way to mitigate this, and is there an easy way to dry it out if it's already picked up more moisture than you'd like?

I would say... take your vials, put them in a small sealed container together with the silica gel or whatever dessicant you have. Ideally air and moisture should not be able to enter the box.

As for drying it out.. I don't know. I would say 'heat it a little bit', but you need to know at which temperature 4-FA begins to decompose and you need a way to monitor the temperature of the heating element.
Did you try to put some fresh silica gel inside the vials, without having it touch the powder?

is it possible that 10 mg of this damp 4-FA mixture actually contains 2 mg of water, or is the water content pretty negligible?

I don't know, but would guess that 2 mg of water is too much. (just tried to add 3 mg of water to 15 mg of ethylphenidate and everything turned to be a liquid slurry. Note: etphenidate, not 4-FA. Maybe you could try the same experiment, if no one has data)

if the solution it were dissolved in were 1/6 ethanol (1/3 100 proof vodka, 2/3 water), would that affect the solubility in a significant negative way? the alcohol's for bactericidal purposes (and is actually the medium the 20 mg/ml was attempted in)

15-16% ethanol solutions are not bactericidal, I would say. If they are their bactericidal activity would be very low ( http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/disinfection_sterilization/6_0disinfection.html ) Btw, I cannot see bacteria thriving on a dry environment (silica gel!), metabolizing 4-FA for they energy needs.

As for the solubility in the mixture, it depends on the solubility of 4-FA in ethanol and in water. It might even precipitate, should it be completely insoluble in ethanol. But substances highly soluble in water and completely insoluble in ethanol are uncommon, so you should be fine.

 

[nuke]

a few random questions about 4-fluoroamphetamine...
3) this is really pushing the limits of my very amateur pharmacology/pharmacokinetics (am i even using the right terms there?) understanding, but from what i've read so far, the following seems plausible: 4-FA is not metabolized, and is excreted unchanged. this may account in part for both its seemingly reduced neurotoxicity compared to MDMA (absence of toxic metabolites) and its relatively long duration (because it's not getting broken down into new and inactive molecules). plausible? if not, how wrong am i, and where'd my understanding go bad?

Amphetamine is partially converted to phenylacetone and then benzoate, although it is a minor pathway. Beta-hydroxylation to the norephedrine derivative is also known to occur. No idea on the toxicity of the homologous metabolites from 4-FA.

 

[amanitadine]

I was able to achieve 100mg/ml for injection quite easily.

 

[QuasiStoned]

Well, to answer your question as to why it hasn't gotten more popular, allow me to share my experience.

4-FA was boring. Boring boring boring in several different batches and several doses.

I had severe problems with mdpv and addiction so I thought I really liked uppers but 4-fa just didn't do anything great for me. Different strokes and what not

 

[naginnudej]

Well, to answer your question as to why it hasn't gotten more popular, allow me to share my experience.

Different strokes and what not

mixed.messages.do.not.compute ;p

OP: To echo what others have said, a well sealed container stored in a dark/dry place with a desiccant of choice should take care of your problem (assuming you don't keep the amphetamines in airtight containers within the drying chamber of course). If you're in it for the long haul I always find it useful to separate enough product from the head stash to last an extended period (2 weeks for daily-use substances, <=2 months depending on use-patterns and compound stability), such that I can maintain the integrity of the product's present potency as a platform for managing a reasonably well-controlled mapping of the compound's future and its inevitable descent into various stages of degredation.

RE the extra water weight, 2mgs h20/10mgs 4-fa is probably pushing it [unless your current storage was compromised by moisture or the product was not properly cleaned and the solvent settled to the bottom (also unlikely if the product is considerably more moist than when acquired)], with a -~.5-2mg discrepancy / dose--as it relates to your dosage history--seems more appropriate. Regardless, it would require an extremely sensitive/amphetamine-naive physiology to discern such small fluctuations in dose I'd think. If anything, this sort of exposure can appear much worse than it really is. A little moisture can go a long way when amphetamines are involved; in many cases a vacuum sealer can offer refuge to those compounds in the long-term storage bin.

Moving on... I don't think you mentioned your choice ROA, but as for the distinction between theraputic and recreational dosages go, IME the line in the sand is not as clear as one might hope. In fact, I have had many experiences wherein recreational doses of 4-FA would lead to a complete 180 turn in my attention; the sheer excitement of facing otherwise daunting work-related activities allowed me to embrace a prowess of intellect unbeknowst to me at the time. Likewise, the inverse is also true: on more than one occasion therapeutic doses taken with clear goals tracked me sideways. But thats the nature of the beast.

IME, unless put it in a nasal spray, insufflation is as unsustainable as it is painful; and unless your product is cleaned properly, IV can be similarly tied to an extremely unpleasant/painful burning sensation near the injection site--so unless rigs are ur digs keep movin homie; smoking on the other hand I cannot speak to from experience but after reading your post it doesn't sound like the sort of high your looking for [frequent and steep dosage patterns can emerge, not great in public, the potential for combustion to create toxic byproducts in the smoke, etc...]. Oral and plugging are my preferred ROAs... the butt being the go-to for instant dopamine-blanket gratification and oral admin being the driver of the bus to study central.

Obviously YMMV, but IME the 3 and 4 fluorine-substituted amphetamine are fairly diverse in their capacity to meet the needs of both recreational and therapeutically-minded users. I'm not a fan of hypercritical conversations driven by MDMA/4-FA comparisons/substitutions because that's just not my style. Although I wasn't around during 4-FA's first introduction to the RC market, I'm fairly certain suppliers and custies alike were concerned with its structural similarity to a compound with particularly unfavorable legal standing in many of the larger EU RC markets. It was thus referred to as 4-FMP for quite awhile before the veil of pseudo-security was finally lifted in favor of its current abbreviated form.

I'm taking a shot in the dark here, but the combination of this, its ill-timed release under the shadow of 4-MMC and the cathinone craze thereafter, and finally the relentless criticism it has received as an alternative to MDMA, a mindset that undermines the capacity for full appreciation of the substance's unique qualities. So while one might be inclined to claim non-interest, boredom, etc... with 4-FA, one can easily take that same judgment-value and strip the stagnant value operators soaked in self for something in favor of descriptives that capture the compound's potential use-value as a gateway for future research aimed towards the discovery/engineering of more effective stimulants that not only serve the public's health, but also provide much-needed relief to an increasingly-narrow supply chain maintained by the tyrants of d-amp kingdom and DEA hill. MDMA opened the door, more palatable amphetamine derivatives will hopefully pave the way.

And while both substances are similar in their psychoactive capacities to deliver a stimulated euphoric headspace, it is in their more distinct qualities that 4-FA begins to shine. As an entactogen, MDMA speaks for itself; no matter how hard you try or how many extra mgs you take, the critically-acclaimed psychedlia of the MDMA experience will not be done justice by 4-FAs [largely unknown] mechanisms of action. I say that not only with scholastic intent, but also with the ideological underpinnings of an emphasis upon reflecting upon one's experience with a psychoactive substance from a place of non-judgment etc etc, but this aint the time or place.

Managing one's executive functions is particularly important for eliciting positive respones to a medicine's use-value. 2, 3, and 4-fa do just that. And while they are not perfect, I do believe 4-FA (3-FA, especially) is appropriate for a wider breadth of usage given the ease by which one can consistently engage in their lives from a grounded perspective. MDMA does not offer this use-value; 2, 3, and 4-FA do (IME). In fact, it was my experience of 3-FAs even-handed, extended duration of action that initially opened my eyes to this possibility. I'm a bit out of my depth with this so be gentle, but I have come across a theory which attributed 4-FA's longer duration of action to the [potential] presence of para-fluoro-norephedrine during 4-FA's metabolization in the body; it is the resilient nature of the para-fluoride halogen which extends the duration of action.

As a point of reference, I have most recently utilized 3-FA as an ADD medication for nearly 6 months (I am not recommending you use this as an alternative to legal drug outlets; in fact don't do what I did at all) before the cost, time commitment, legality and sourcing issues drove me to teet of big pharma. 4-FA and I have quite the history as well, although I am much more fond of its lesser-known sibling. I'm going to refrain from sharing my doses unless specifically requested; I take quite a bit more than the OP and as such my dosage chart would offer no insight into the conversation at hand.


tl;dr boys rules, girls suck!

 

[naginnudej]

hey LP, those are some valuable experiences you've had there, thanks for sharing mate.

Matter of fact, that post would do a whole lot of good in one of our many 'big and dandy' threads, dedicated to aggregating information on various compounds. The 4-A thread has more than a few pages of discussion already, but don't let that stop you from sharing. As long as your reportage maintains its integrity to your experience your information will always be welcome. Here's a thread that links to 4-FA... www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/637311-...r-appropriate-MT-before-creating-a-new-thread

 

[Selggurkim]

A bit off topic but a few things I noticed about 4-FA:
1: It's easy to get distracted, probably due to the serotonin activity at higher dosage. Also it feels more fog headed at high dosage. At lower dosage it is easier to stay focused. (45-250mg have been tested)
2: Due to the long half-life the comedown is barley noticeable, provided you remember to eat and stay hydrated. Getting even a little sleep helps. Taking supplements before the comedown helps (5-htp, magnesium, b-complex, a good multi vitamin, etc.)

These are two crucial / very important facts that should be known by many looking for a study aid (VS. getting high on amphetamines to dance etc.)

Thank you for the great post.

 

[DJHENRU]

man be sure to eat and drink, due to profuce sweating and I guess the 5ht depletion I would occasionally get super low BP after binges. I wouldnt doubt there must be some kind of hypoxia to the brain.

 

[hollywood_cole]

thanks very much for all the responses, everyone. sorry for lurking in my own thread and not replying for so long. that was all very helpful, though.

i'll probably try the suggestion for leaving the smaller vial open in a larger sealed container with a dessicant. good call on that.

naughtynicknails: i wasn't saying the long duration cut down on neurotoxicity, i was speculating (i think incorrectly based on later responses) that the seemingly low neurotoxicity and the long duration were both results of the substance not getting metabolized.

pontifex01 and josair: yeah, bacteriostatic, sorry (and thanks for the confirmation).

i recently did another trial where i dissolved a few hundred mg of 4-FA at 20 mg/mL (same alcohol soln), and it took a bit of stirring, but it all ended up dissolving and staying dissolved.

naginnudej: ROA is oral. swallowed plus whatever bit ends up being sublingual. pretty happy with that, and i'd be squeamish for one reason or another with all the other ROAs you mentioned (insufflation only because of the pain in this case). also, i think i pretty much agree with all of your subjective observations about the experience. and that seems a reasonable enough theory for explaining its lack of popularity. don't have the knowledge to comment one way or the other on the metabolite point.

lucidparadox: thanks, all that's very interesting and useful, but especially #5. and agreed on #1. also, in that vein, i find that it makes me a little more uncoordinated than usual too, almost like an extra drink or two might. re: #3, i actually don't think of this so much as a negative, because that persistent stimulation is pretty clean and combines well with other things, esp alcohol. i think that's part of why it's gone over well in my group of friends.

djhenru: i at least find it easier to eat while on 4-FA than i do on other stimulants, so that makes it a little easier to follow your advice. i think i've heard others saying similar on BL, though i can't think of specific posts to link to off hand.