As part of a project I'm working on, I'm interested if anyone knows of traditional religious experiences that are roughly equivalent to Shulgin's +4 designation. Buddha under the bodhi tree would clearly qualify, and I have to imagine there are others, but none come to mind. It seems that many recorded historical/mythical religious experiences would more closely correspond to a +3, given the sensory alterations that are often their defining characteristic.
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+4 experiences in religious history?
- Thread starter stillmind
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I'm wondering if up to a +++ denotes drug effects, but a ++++ is in something on its own, more to do with the mystical/transcendental experience, which might be accomplished, or might occur many ways, not specific to a drug effect... Not reproducible, exactly.
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But yea, many were probably on drugs.
And if they weren't something was in their heads...
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But yea, many were probably on drugs.
And if they weren't something was in their heads...
biffhenderson
Bluelighter
Yogananda's "Autobiography of a Yogi" is loaded with descriptions of mystical experiences and states of mind he achieved only with meditation that sound a lot like what you are looking for. You can read the book online for free here http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/contents.php
Excerpt from chapter 14 "An Experience in Cosmic Consciousness":
"All objects within my panoramic gaze trembled and vibrated like quick motion pictures. My body, Master's, the pillared courtyard, the furniture and floor, the trees and sunshine, occasionally became violently agitated, until all melted into a luminescent sea; even as sugar crystals, thrown into a glass of water, dissolve after being shaken. The unifying light alternated with materializations of form, the metamorphoses revealing the law of cause and effect in creation.
An oceanic joy broke upon calm endless shores of my soul. The Spirit of God, I realized, is exhaustless Bliss; His body is countless tissues of light. A swelling glory within me began to envelop towns, continents, the earth, solar and stellar systems, tenuous nebulae, and floating universes. The entire cosmos, gently luminous, like a city seen afar at night, glimmered within the infinitude of my being. The sharply etched global outlines faded somewhat at the farthest edges; there I could see a mellow radiance, ever-undiminished. It was indescribably subtle; the planetary pictures were formed of a grosser light.
The divine dispersion of rays poured from an Eternal Source, blazing into galaxies, transfigured with ineffable auras. Again and again I saw the creative beams condense into constellations, then resolve into sheets of transparent flame. By rhythmic reversion, sextillion worlds passed into diaphanous luster; fire became firmament."
Excerpt from chapter 14 "An Experience in Cosmic Consciousness":
"All objects within my panoramic gaze trembled and vibrated like quick motion pictures. My body, Master's, the pillared courtyard, the furniture and floor, the trees and sunshine, occasionally became violently agitated, until all melted into a luminescent sea; even as sugar crystals, thrown into a glass of water, dissolve after being shaken. The unifying light alternated with materializations of form, the metamorphoses revealing the law of cause and effect in creation.
An oceanic joy broke upon calm endless shores of my soul. The Spirit of God, I realized, is exhaustless Bliss; His body is countless tissues of light. A swelling glory within me began to envelop towns, continents, the earth, solar and stellar systems, tenuous nebulae, and floating universes. The entire cosmos, gently luminous, like a city seen afar at night, glimmered within the infinitude of my being. The sharply etched global outlines faded somewhat at the farthest edges; there I could see a mellow radiance, ever-undiminished. It was indescribably subtle; the planetary pictures were formed of a grosser light.
The divine dispersion of rays poured from an Eternal Source, blazing into galaxies, transfigured with ineffable auras. Again and again I saw the creative beams condense into constellations, then resolve into sheets of transparent flame. By rhythmic reversion, sextillion worlds passed into diaphanous luster; fire became firmament."
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^ I don't think there is a difference in both.
It sounds more logical that the social environment didn't allow those people to say that they took mushrooms or whatever psychedelic than having +4 psychedelic experiences randomly. Not much difference to today.
It sounds more logical that the social environment didn't allow those people to say that they took mushrooms or whatever psychedelic than having +4 psychedelic experiences randomly. Not much difference to today.
No way, but i don't think he is tripping either. :D But I am a muslim and I'm sure that our "prophet" was a psychonaut, just like other prophets, buddhas or whatever ppl want to call them. The muslim prophet "received" his revelation in a cave and in around 23 years. Imho it seems like it was the best setting for him, isolated from sensory input, tripping. And 23 years of psychedelic experience, I think he had much to tell or talk. Sounds more logical for me instead of just sitting around in a cave. What would ppl think nowadays of someone who goes in a cave in a span of 23 years and tells everyone he talked to god and got messages from an angel? I don't think it was different at that time, maybe drugs weren't acceptable at that time, too so he couldn't say it.
From my experience psychedelic experiences are religious or spiritual experiences. Same for other religions.
a lil OT: Maybe it is possible to experience god and the other world with other tools or techniques, but a) I never tried it so I won't recommend something which I don't know but what I know from my experiences with psychedelic is, that you can enter mindspaces of different variety and that you can experience god and a "soul" world with psychedelics. Especially with a combo of 4-ho-met and jwh-250.
Folley
Bluelighter
I think that's pretty damn racist... considering it was the Catholic Church that originated that tradition.
I believe all ++++'s are directly related to the kinds of enlightenment that was gained by many religious leaders...
Buddha, gained enlightenment through intense fasting and meditation
Jesus, wandered the desert without food or water for 40 days, and was apparently tempted by the Devil during this time
Muhammad, I believe the Muslims believe he was directly contacted by God during a time he was removed from the world..? I'm not exactly well versed on this religion though, so my apologies if that's wrong.
Point is, many many religious (and non-religious) people over the years have had experiences we could describe as a ++++ that led to their "enlightenment", where their eyes were opened by the "Gods".... this is always repeated through out history, it happens in almost every religion.
I think religious enlightenment, sensory deprivation, out of body experiences, lucid dreams, altered brainwaves that occur when you listen to music, fasting, orgasms, experiences caused by psychedelic drugs or a combination of any of those are all connected...
Each one of those experiences has a direct effect on the neurochemicals that flow through our brain everyday... particularly serotonin. With such commonly repeated experiences that have been taking place in humans since the dawn of time in EXTREMELY different circumstances... there has to be some kind of connection.
Whether you would like to think of it as a chemical one, or a religious one, there is an obvious connection.... I choose to believe that religion is a way of directly altering your neuro-chemistry... but that's just me.
Dondante
Bluelighter
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I agree that Shulgin's ++++ is essentially synonymous with the term "mystical experience," insofar as it contains the same key elements as non-drug induced mystical experience. However, that's not to say that the two states are qualitatively indistinguishable, or even that non-drug mystical experiences feel "psychedelic," just that the overlap is conspicuous. Also, just to clarify, the psychedelic state generally is not "mystical," so the rare ++++ is necessarily a small subset of what is experientially possible...it just happens to be the most interesting thing occurs under the influence IMHO.
A non-drug mystical experience that comes to mind...
"Crossing a bare common, in snow puddles, at twilight, under a clouded sky, without having in my thoughts any occurrence of special good fortune, I have enjoyed a perfect exhilaration. I am glad to the brink of fear. In the woods too, a man casts off his years, as the snake his slough, and at what period soever of life, is always a child. In the woods, is perpetual youth. Within these plantations of God, a decorum and sanctity reign, a perennial festival is dressed, and the guest sees not how he should tire of them in a thousand years. In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life, — no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) which nature cannot repair. Standing on the bare ground, — my head bathed by the blithe air, and uplifted into infinite space, — all mean egotism vanishes. I become a transparent eye-ball; I am nothing; I see all; the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or particle of God."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
A non-drug mystical experience that comes to mind...
"Crossing a bare common, in snow puddles, at twilight, under a clouded sky, without having in my thoughts any occurrence of special good fortune, I have enjoyed a perfect exhilaration. I am glad to the brink of fear. In the woods too, a man casts off his years, as the snake his slough, and at what period soever of life, is always a child. In the woods, is perpetual youth. Within these plantations of God, a decorum and sanctity reign, a perennial festival is dressed, and the guest sees not how he should tire of them in a thousand years. In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life, — no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) which nature cannot repair. Standing on the bare ground, — my head bathed by the blithe air, and uplifted into infinite space, — all mean egotism vanishes. I become a transparent eye-ball; I am nothing; I see all; the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or particle of God."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Folley
Bluelighter
I agree wholeheartedly, I think a ++++ is basically a transcending/out of body/religious experience, with a ton of psychedelic effects thrown on top... I also think it is much easier to reach these states with drugs, but that it's not necessarily that hard to reach them without drugs either...
I think if you really put your mind to it, in the right settings and with the right concentration, you can reach these experiences almost any time you wish... at least that's been my experience. I think psychedelics just cause a state of mind that makes that kind of inner focus and mental clarity a lot easier to obtain... that's why they've been used in religious ceremonies for as long as fungus and cacti have been growing
Depends how you do it I suppose - L Ron Hubbard was saying some pretty far out shit about hearing messages from aliens 50 years ago and he made billions from it. Was he on mushrooms?
I don't think it was different at that time, maybe drugs weren't acceptable at that time, too so he couldn't say it.
Why would you need psychedelic drugs to say such things tho? Anyone can make up stories can't they, presumably most of the major religions formed 2000 years ago because people were more gullible pre-science and they infect their children with the same beliefs.
In what sense is it racist? The last time I saw film of a crowd of people whipping themselves they were muslims. Are you denying what I saw?
Buddha, gained enlightenment through intense fasting and meditation
Jesus, wandered the desert without food or water for 40 days, and was apparently tempted by the Devil during this time
Well yeah, we all know the bullshit stories that have been made up and passed on from generation to generation. Why don't you wander the desert for 40 days without food or water (incidentally - you die after 3 days without water so that stories got problems straight away hasn't it!) and tell me how psychedelic it was.
Point is, many many religious (and non-religious) people over the years have had experiences we could describe as a ++++ that led to their "enlightenment", where their eyes were opened by the "Gods".... this is always repeated through out history, it happens in almost every religion.
True, but most religions have the same bullshit as their foundation - they're all ripped off the same old stories so obviously you get the same stuff repeated time and again.
I think religious enlightenment, sensory deprivation, out of body experiences, lucid dreams, altered brainwaves that occur when you listen to music, fasting, orgasms, experiences caused by psychedelic drugs or a combination of any of those are all connected...
Hold on a minute Folley. Are you really saying if someone enjoys listening to music or has a lucid dream he knows what 5 dried grams of mushrooms is like? I'm sorry but he doesn't. He hasn't got the faintest fucking clue. A psychedelic experience requires the use of a psychedelic drug. Anyone who tells you he knows what 500mics of LSD is like because he once fasted for a few days is bullshitting. Pure and simple.
Whether you would like to think of it as a chemical one, or a religious one, there is an obvious connection
No, a psychedelic experience is something we can all experience within 20 minutes - you take the drug, you have a psychedelic experience. Simple. Easy. No need to believe in mysterious beings, no need to believe in "Jesus" or "The Buddha".
A religious "experience" is nothing like that. It's something that only exists in stories from 2000 years ago and the delusional today.
Folley
Bluelighter
No, of course not. But then again, a ++++ and a psychedelic experience are two mutually exclusive things. You can have a ++++ on psychedelics, but you don't need psychedelics to ++++.
Overall your post seems pretty negative... you call the basis of all religions "bull shit", which I find a bit amusing... but hey, I'm sure you have your reasoning for thinking that
All I know is that the majority of my psychedelic experiences have been profoundly religious... and I almost always go into the trip with purely recreational intentions. Psychedelics have been used for thousands of years to talk to the "Gods"... the Mayans, the Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Jews and virtually every other religion has some mention of psychedelic substances or an experience that is said to be as profound as a ++++, so whether you believe in religion or not, surely you see SOME connection between the chemicals in our brains and religion...
You can use that knowledge for either side of the argument, so don't be too quick to deny it
True Folley, I may be a little negative about religions because I've heard so many buddhists and Hinduists being negative about psychedelics - you know how they always say stuff like "Psychedelics are only temporary whereas we offer PERMANENT enlightenment". (And they're just the "nice" religions on drugs - the christians and muslims want us rounded up and consigned to concentration camps for taking drugs) I think psychedelics are supreme over any man-made religion. With psychedelics it's just you and the drug - so you can create your own "religion".
Man-made religions arn't friendly to psychedelics - I'm sure if you asked any buddhist/hindu/christian whether drugs were as good as his religion he would look at you as if you were crazy. I don't like the idea of some man-made religion having the impression that they get everything out of their religion that you can get from a psychedelic. Psychedelics are unique - there's nothing like them.
I'm fighting the psychedelic corner!
Man-made religions arn't friendly to psychedelics - I'm sure if you asked any buddhist/hindu/christian whether drugs were as good as his religion he would look at you as if you were crazy. I don't like the idea of some man-made religion having the impression that they get everything out of their religion that you can get from a psychedelic. Psychedelics are unique - there's nothing like them.
I'm fighting the psychedelic corner!
any major dude
Bluelight Crew
I'd argue that some religious practices can induce similar states that one can reach on psychedelics. But I certainly wouldn't say they are indistinguishable. Mystical type experiences can be reached via a number of methods, psychedelics being one.
Also plenty of religions have some use of psychedelic substances somewhere in their past. Albeit indigenous American religions seem to have made more use of these than European & Asian religions. That is not to say the latter are completely devoid of ritualistic drug usage, but they seem to have either dropped it much longer ago or didn't document it as we'll, or possibly destroyed most records of it. Its a bit hard to say with any degree of certainty. And it is also quite easy to read one's own psychedelic experience onto religious literature. This cognitive bias is hardly exclusive to psychedelics though.
Also plenty of religions have some use of psychedelic substances somewhere in their past. Albeit indigenous American religions seem to have made more use of these than European & Asian religions. That is not to say the latter are completely devoid of ritualistic drug usage, but they seem to have either dropped it much longer ago or didn't document it as we'll, or possibly destroyed most records of it. Its a bit hard to say with any degree of certainty. And it is also quite easy to read one's own psychedelic experience onto religious literature. This cognitive bias is hardly exclusive to psychedelics though.
Was simply taking psychedelics a religion tho? If you look at all the religions from South America they're usually christian religions with psychedelics sort of added on - because when the spanish christians invaded they burned anyone who didn't worship Jesus. So the terrified natives said "Oh, we'll worship Jesus and God like you tell us to".
Religions like santo daime - it's not clear whether there was any form of "religion" before the spanish arrived.
Dondante
Bluelighter
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"Novak (1997) hypothesized that Western intellectuals in the mid 1950s such as Aldous Huxley and Gerald Heard merely redefined the subjective effects resulting from hallucinogen administration as a spiritual experience, thereby popularizing such an association in western culture. However, the observation that indigenous cultures that ingest classical hallucinogens almost invariably do so under sacramental contexts (Schultes, et al., 2001), along with the findings from double-blind clinical studies demonstrating that under supportive conditions, hallucinogens occasion mystical-type experiences with high frequency (Pahnke, 1963; Griffiths, et al., 2006) suggests that the association of hallucinogens with spiritual experience relates to the pharmacology of these agents rather than being based entirely on cultural suggestion."
Johnson M, Richards W, Griffiths R. Human hallucinogen research: guidelines for safety. J Psychopharmacol. 2008 Aug;22(6):603-20.
Mystical experience is the seed of religion...wish I had time to say more, but have to run to work.
Johnson M, Richards W, Griffiths R. Human hallucinogen research: guidelines for safety. J Psychopharmacol. 2008 Aug;22(6):603-20.
Mystical experience is the seed of religion...wish I had time to say more, but have to run to work.
any major dude
Bluelight Crew
Its not my understanding that taking ayahuasca, yopo, mushrooms, salvia, morning glory seeds, san pedro, peyote, etc is or was a religion unto itself, but it occurred in a cultural & religious context. Granted this is my understanding of it and i'm certainly not an anthropologist. Post colonization the ritualistic substance use was, AFAIK, pretty strictly verbotten, but later it seems some of the indigenous traditions worked their way into catholicism, resulting in Santo Daime & the like.
Pre-conquistadors there's plenty of evidence for a variety of meso & south american religions. In the amazon it seems to be fairly localized, tribal shamanistic religions, not terribly dissimilar from the type you see in sub-saharan africa or aboriginal Australia. These obviously aren't quite like the organized religions of large civilizations, but "religion" does seem to be a useful construct in which to discuss these things.
Folley
Bluelighter
Honestly, I would agree with that. Maybe it's just because we go into a psychedelic experience only looking for the recreational, "fun", side of the drug that we aren't as willing or able to take that insight with us after the trip is over... but it seems with psychedelics you almost need to keep dosing every few months to be able to stay in that state of mind, but with religion many people have found it easy to integrate those changes into their daily lives...
Now, that's not to say that a psychedelic experience can't be profoundly religious, or that your going to simply forget the life changing ideas you came up with... no, in fact my last shroom trip a good 2-3 months ago is still effecting my life greatly, I feel like I'm STILL learning from it.... I just think that, for the majority of users, a "normal" ++++ is going to be a VERY PROFOUND moment, but not a significantly life changing one.
Now, if you put in the same focus and concentration and go into that experience with a mind set of someone embarking on some kind of inner spiritual journey, the chances of you having a religious and ++++ experience at the same time is greatly increased.
Psychedelics are like a cheat sheet to your brain, they will tell you what you want to know... and what could possibly be more important than your eternal soul??
!!4iV4HF9R34g
Bluelighter
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Ismene, you've been more aggressive in your ideology lately lol.
All I really wanna say is that it's 100% possible that the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks where experiencing something akin to a plusfour.
Obviously they weren't high. And of course religious experiences can't replicate a psychedelic plusfour.
But whether your experience be from drugs or your god, you feel that same thing. Just with drugs involved, you're also tripping sack.
I feel really bad that you've never felt that without drugs, and I almost feel worse that you have convinced yourself (apparently beyond reproach) that religion is evil and cannot get you to the same place.
Hell, I'm not even religious! I do like to study theology though. And I also live in an area where I can easily notice all the effects of religion on people. Here in Utah, I'm sure you've heard we have many Mormons. Well lots of them are stereotypical, just living the culture not the religion. But there are way too many to count that genuinely feel the connection to god, and many more who live amazing, fulfilling, wholesome lives directly because of their faith.
And that's just the one example. I've studied the esoteric since elementary when I could first understand these things. There are innumerable cases and countless more undocumented people who experience what we qualify a plusfour.
I mean, the plusfour just means you've reached the point where everything is right and real. Shulgin himself talked about how the plusfour experience isn't due to the drug. The drug just facilitates an easy path.
Also, on a semi-related note, have you ever actually done fasting or sleep dep?
If you think you can't reach transcendental or even psychedelic states through those methods, you're fucking tripping shit.
All I really wanna say is that it's 100% possible that the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks where experiencing something akin to a plusfour.
Obviously they weren't high. And of course religious experiences can't replicate a psychedelic plusfour.
But whether your experience be from drugs or your god, you feel that same thing. Just with drugs involved, you're also tripping sack.
I feel really bad that you've never felt that without drugs, and I almost feel worse that you have convinced yourself (apparently beyond reproach) that religion is evil and cannot get you to the same place.
Hell, I'm not even religious! I do like to study theology though. And I also live in an area where I can easily notice all the effects of religion on people. Here in Utah, I'm sure you've heard we have many Mormons. Well lots of them are stereotypical, just living the culture not the religion. But there are way too many to count that genuinely feel the connection to god, and many more who live amazing, fulfilling, wholesome lives directly because of their faith.
And that's just the one example. I've studied the esoteric since elementary when I could first understand these things. There are innumerable cases and countless more undocumented people who experience what we qualify a plusfour.
I mean, the plusfour just means you've reached the point where everything is right and real. Shulgin himself talked about how the plusfour experience isn't due to the drug. The drug just facilitates an easy path.
Also, on a semi-related note, have you ever actually done fasting or sleep dep?
If you think you can't reach transcendental or even psychedelic states through those methods, you're fucking tripping shit.