4-AcO-DMT vs. ayahuasca?

[TheAppleCore]

If anyone has considerable experience with both, how do they compare and contrast?

4-AcO-DMT to me feels very similar to smoked DMT, and I assume ayahuasca not to differ too much from an extended DMT trip, which is why I am curious as to whether or not there are any major differences.

 

[HighonLife]

your not the 1st person on Bl that i have heard feels that 4 aco is similar to smoked DMT but IMO i dont get it

obviously im only one person and have never gone over ~20mg with the 4 aco so maybe the similarities is in the higher doses but i just figured id throw out my opinion that smoked DMT and 4 aco arent incredibly similar

 

[champ]

I think high doses of 4-aco are reminiscent of dmt, in the quality and type of visuals and in the immersiveness. 4-aco really puts me inside the trip like dmt does.

 

[redeyesmj]

ayahuasca and smoked dmt have simalaritys but they are nowere near the same, the maoi adds its bit to the experince along with other addmixtures that get added to brews. that is traditional aya though not your homemade brew with just enuf maoi for the extracted dmt to work...that is somewhat like smoked dmt.

Very high doses of shrooms gets me to dmt visual state so i amagine that 4-aco-dmt could also

 

[freedstar]

When people compare 4-aco-dmt to smoked DMT I don't think they're talking about the whole blasting into space part.

I've never tried DMT so this probably means nothing. But on high doses of 4-aco-dmt I found myself thinking "ahh this must be what DMT is like". The experience and visuals at larger doses feel much different than mushrooms. It's probably naive of me to try and assume what DMT is like. But I guess after reading about it and seeing visionary inspired art the thought tends to pop into my head.

 

[Ismene]

A high dose of 4-aco is similar to DMT but not quite the same, I'm not sure whether it's more similar to DMT than a high dose of mushrooms.

What is pretty much exactly like oral DMT is mushrooms plus an MAOI like moclobemide. I've never tried 4aco with moclobemide.

 

[daytryptr]

4-aco with harmala alkaloids from caapi/rue is very reminiscent of ayahuasca. Mushrooms & harmalas are the same way as well. If your not sketched out with taking harmala rima maoi's w/ 4-aco or in general, its a very nice combo. IMHO its a bit easier to work with than dmt/harmalas, but takes you to a very similar place.

By itself 4-aco is not really much like aya. Just like dmt w/out maoi's is not really like ayahuasca. Harmalas do a lot more than just orally activate dmt, they contribute a significant portion of the effects of the brew. Many ayahuasceros consider the caapi to be the real medicine, and i tend to agree. Thats why you won't get ayahuasca like experiences from just tryptamines, you need the harmalas to get the good stuff.

 

[Ismene]

Harmalas do a lot more than just orally activate dmt, they contribute a significant portion of the effects of the brew.

Mostly the negative effects tho. I've taken harmines on their own and the effects are fucking horrendous - vicious headaches, nausea and absolutely no psychedelic effect whatsoever.

Many ayahuasceros consider the caapi to be the real medicine, and i tend to agree.

It depends on what you're using it for. If you're looking to vomit and shit so much you get rid of worms - which is a big reason why people in primitive jungles take harmalas then ok. If you're looking to trip then the DMT is what you concentrate on. Moclobemide works fine for this and doesn't cause any nausea.

Thats why you won't get ayahuasca like experiences from just tryptamines

I dunno, I get the effect of oral DMT from mushrooms and moclobemide. And I don't just mean "a bit like oral DMT", it's exactly the same as oral DMT. And I've taken enough oral DMT to stun a charging rhino.

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

I have not tried 4-Aco-DMT yet, but shouldn't it be much closer to psilocybin-containing mushrooms than to smoked DMT?

 

[freedstar]

I have not tried 4-Aco-DMT yet, but shouldn't it be much closer to psilocybin-containing mushrooms than to smoked DMT?

Oh yeah definitely. People are just saying that there's something reminiscent of DMT in a 4-aco-dmt trip.

Feels like a less jarring, very smooth mushroom trip. It's also more sedating. I always yawn a lot and my eyes start to water. Very dreamy.

 

[TheAppleCore]

^ From what I've heard, surprisingly not.

Hmm... now I'm interested in combining some caapi tea with 4-AcO-DMT. Do I need a significantly lower dose of 4-AcO than I would normally take? Or does the MAOI change the trip more qualitatively than quantitatively?

 

[daytryptr]

Mostly the negative effects tho. I've taken harmines on their own and the effects are fucking horrendous - vicious headaches, nausea and absolutely no psychedelic effect whatsoever.

Many ayahuasceros consider the caapi to be the real medicine, and i tend to agree.

It depends on what you're using it for. If you're looking to vomit and shit so much you get rid of worms - which is a big reason why people in primitive jungles take harmalas then ok. If you're looking to trip then the DMT is what you concentrate on. Moclobemide works fine for this and doesn't cause any nausea.

Thats why you won't get ayahuasca like experiences from just tryptamines

I dunno, I get the effect of oral DMT from mushrooms and moclobemide. And I don't just mean "a bit like oral DMT", it's exactly the same as oral DMT. And I've taken enough oral DMT to stun a charging rhino.

I mean tryptamines by themselves w/out harmalas. Not mushrooms w/ a maoi compared to dmt orally w/ a maoi. Even if they are different maoi's. IME tryptamines orally active without maoi's (beta carbolines or not), vaporized dmt/tryptamines by themselves, are vastly different to any maoi/tryptamine combo. That is to say 4-aco/mushrooms/vaporized dmt by themselves are a far cry from maoi/tryptamine combinations. So you can't use mushrooms/moclobemide as an example of a tryptamine BY THEMSELVES as an exception to that statement since harmalas/pharmaceutical maois theoretically do the same thing in rough terms, and the combo is not tryptamines by themselves.

I was just getting at, any tryptamine is going to be a vastly different experience taken w/wout maoi's, pharmaceutical or natural ime. If thats not the case in your experience, then i can dig. But i don't see how a maoi/mushroom combo is a relevant counterpoint, as its roughly doing the same thing as aya. If you get the same effect from high dose mushrooms and ayahuasca, or any tryptamine/maoi combo thats a different thing entirely.

 

[Ismene]

^^

Ah right, I get you daytrypr high dose mushrooms definately isn't much like oral DMT. Very different animals.

 

[alteredstate8]

In my experience, 4-aco-dmt IS in fact just orally active DMT. Recently I have noticed that it put me in the exact same place I was during a sub breakthrough smoked dmt trip. If I would not have known, I could have guessed I had just smoked another subbreakthrough dose of dmt rather than having taken 4-aco-dmt. This was with OEV only though. I have experience similar CEV to smoked dmt on 4-aco-dmt but they were nowhere near as intense and did not move as fast. To some it may not be the same, but in my experience they are exactly the same. Although I doubt you could ever reach a breakthrough on 4-aco-dmt as you can smoking dmt.

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

People are just saying that there's something reminiscent of DMT in a 4-aco-dmt trip.

but is not the same true for a psilocybin/mushroom trip? do you really think this reminiscence is stronger with 4-AcO-DMT? of course also a comparison with synthetic Psilocin (4-HO-DMT) would be interesting.

In my experience, 4-aco-dmt IS in fact just orally active DMT.

this is certainly true to some extent, but once again: do you really think this applies more to Psilacetin (4-AcO-DMT) than to Psilocybin (4-PO-DMT) or Psilocin (4-HO-DMT) or the mushrooms containing those compounds?

of course I have to admit I have no personal experience with 4-AcO-DMT (or any other 4-AcO-substituted tryptamine, I have only tried several 4-HO-substituted tryptamines yet), but Shulgin's theory that all esters are basically equivalent just sounds so plausible to me. also the story of Maria Sabina saying she could not distuingish between synthetic Psilocybin pills and natural mushrooms contributes to that belief. and finally, I often have the impression that people are exaggerating the differences between various tryptamines, probably because they underestimate the importance of set and setting. I myself have to admit that I would not dare to bet that I could distinguish the various 4-HO-substituted tryptamines I have tried yet...

 

[alteredstate8]

I myself have never experienced mushrooms, although they are available to me, just because 4-aco-dmt was just more convenient to take and because of people's reports that 4-aco-dmt had essencially the same effects as psilocin. So unfortunately I can't comment on the differences between psilocin and dmt. Although now I may end up trying psilocin for this reason.

 

[Zandra]

My experience with 4-AcO-DMT felt somewhere in between smoked DMT and mushrooms. I haven't done Ayahuasca. For me, mushrooms feel extremely dissociative, in fact the dissociative aspects basically always hits me more strongly than the pure psychedelic aspects. Of course, DMT feels very dissociative too, but only in a "you're on a huge dose of psychedelic" way, at least to me. When I say mushrooms feel dissociative, I mean I literally feel like I'm on a strong NMDA antagonist. I've yet to try another psychedelic that feels this way this intensely. As for comparison of visuals, I've seen a lot of people say that they can't tell the difference between high doses of mushrooms and DMT. I can't agree with this, they are extremely similar but I always notice subtle differences. How much that matters to you, however, is variable. It is mostly the level of dissociation and sensory experience that differs as opposed to the types of mystical states. Now, when it comes to 4-AcO-DMT, I think the main thing I'd have to say about it is that it feels very much like mushrooms, and I would much sooner compare the visuals to mushrooms than DMT, but it lacks that same full dissociative quality that mushrooms give me. In this regard, I find it more similar to DMT. A "clearer" head allows for deeper (lucid) thought patterns and less confusion, and more focus on the visions like with DMT rather than getting completely sucked into my own mind.

Additionally, at equipotent doses I find both mushrooms and 4-AcO-DMT to be more impressively visual than DMT, and the former moreso than the latter. However, my experience thus far has also shown DMT to have a higher ceiling dose than either of those in terms of psychedelic effects. Your mileage may vary, but for me I think I would probably choose 4-AcO-DMT if I wanted to stay in "reality", and DMT/Ayahuasca for an actual vision quest. Not that they both can't work for both, but that's my opinion.

 

[Zandra]

thats interesting to read. what would you (or someone experienced like ismene) consider a "high enough dose" of 4-aco-dmt to get into oral dmt/aya-like territory?
i only did it in moderate doses yet like 10-15mg so far and it was very shroomy. nowhere near smoked dmt for me.

Well like I said, I haven't done Ayahuasca yet, but I would guess it depends on how much you want to do. You can have low dose Ayahuasca trips as well. The 4-AcO-DMT unfortunately wasn't around here for very long so someone else can probably help you out more with a good dose, but so far I haven't gone above 35 mg. This was enough to provide me with complex and highly realistic visuals, though my tripping tolerance was also sort of high at the time so it was a little less vivid than I would have liked. Still great though. It had a... not really exactly "synthetic", but "mechanical" feel to it. And not in a cold way like phenethylamines can sometimes be, but in a way more like LSD can be. I attribute this to the clearer mindset to at least some degree, as it felt like I could actually sort of merge into the patterns rather than falling from them into a void, like with mushrooms.

I will say that it didn't really feel like I could be hitting a breakthrough soon like I would with that level of trip on DMT. That's partly why I mentioned the different levels of ceiling effect. It was still incredibly visionary, but DMT kind of reaches this point where it feels like it goes from a regular psychedelic to something totally wild. 4-AcO-DMT just felt like a regular psychedelic to me.

 

[Ismene]

thats interesting to read. what would you (or someone experienced like ismene) consider a "high enough dose" of 4-aco-dmt to get into oral dmt/aya-like territory?

If you've had mushrooms or 4acoDmt I don't think you could say you know what oral DMT is like. They're in the same ballpark but DMT has a unique character that I've only recreated by combining mushrooms and moclobemide. 4aco-dmt isn't as psychedelic as oral DMT. With oral DMT the entire fucking cosmos breaks loose around you (As ginsberg put it)

4aco-dmt is different to mushrooms because it comes on so fast - it hits you inside 10 minutes and 2 hours later it's over, whereas with mushrooms it takes an hour for the trip to start and then it lasts 3 or 4 hours.

 

[Zandra]

4aco-dmt is different to mushrooms because it comes on so fast - it hits you inside 10 minutes and 2 hours later it's over, whereas with mushrooms it takes an hour for the trip to start and then it lasts 3 or 4 hours.

That's totally opposite from my experience. Mushrooms hit me much faster than any other psychedelic (aside from smoked DMT of course). 4-AcO-DMT for me came on a bit slower and lasted a bit longer than mushrooms.