yaksha
Greenlighter
Correct, although I did take back to back oral plus nasal doses several times I kept it generally low, I'll try the, let's call it potentially euphoric dose this weekend and report accordingly
-
OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
RCs 3F-Phenmetrazine (3-FPM)
- Thread starter phatass
- Start date
kingqueen1
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 213
Have used Eph for sometime intranasal, i dont know if my nose is totally fuckedup or what but i cant feel any discomfort anymore by snorting, beside 3-fa or 4-fa if i remember correctly which i couldnt snort simply. Beside that feel really tired since yesterday like want to nap all the time, which make sense comparee to the past days lack of sleep. Did 25mg this morning could nap 5hour after, ate, so there is no discomfort or much negative effects but not feelin much stimulated either, thinkin about takin some more to see how it goes for today.
yaksha
Greenlighter
A word of advice to those WITHOUT anxiety issues, or dependence issues, etizolam has proven to overcome all of the residual stimulation over and over again with this substance, sub mg doses(.25-.75) seem to negate the outward stimulation and 1-2mg overcomes any insomnia. Word to the wise however, I've found as I briefly mentioned earlier that once you get the long term compounded effects, you potentially stand the chance of revisiting the effects once the etizolam wears off, on one particular day I woke up like a shot 4.5 hours after dosing etizolam and felt completely high, so be advised.
kingqueen1
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 213
and well i wonder but anybody worry about fluroro- compounds? fluor is knew to be something really toxic, that my principal concern with this product
kingqueen1
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 213
From another forum (sorry for how long the post is)
: about hydrogeneted chimicals ( 4-fa 2-fa ect.. ) Disclaimer: Please be sure to read this thread in its entirity rather than just the first post. While this first post was well received it contains a number of assumptions, errors, and statements that contradict the findings of empirical research. These issues are highlighted throughout the discussion, so the whole thread will give a much more balanced overview of this topic than this post alone. The poster's claim to be an experienced pharmacologist and bioinformatician is also bogus.. he works in IT.
_____________
(end mod edit)
Hello everyone,
Look I'm posting here as an pharmacologist and bioinformatics researcher to WARN you guys that you are putting yourselves at risk by consuming halogenated amphetamines, which are increasingly sold as Research Chemicals (RCs). The main substances in question I refer to are known as 2-FA, 3-FA, and 4-FA -- in particular, I am warning about 4-FA.
Some of you know there is a risk of neurotoxicity with compounds such as 4-FA, and choose do consume these substances anyway with informed consent. That's fine. As long as you know there is a risk of brain damage (with the risk level unknown), and you accept that risk , then go ahead.
I am writing to those young people, without the wisdom of age or a background in pharmacology or chemistry, are are just starting in research chemicals (RCs) who do not understand or are unaware that the risk profile of halogenated amphetamines (2-FA, 3-FA, 4-FA, etc) is MUCH DIFFERENT than older research chemicals with a relatively safe track record (2C-I , etc).
MDMA and 2C-I etc are relatively safe when used in moderation, and CANNOT be compared to compounds such as 4-FA. Yes, MDMA has a risk of neurotoxicity, but when used in moderation (a few times a year) that risk is relatively low. 4-FA has a MUCH MUCH higher risk.
Here is why you are at risk if you consume halogenated amphetamines.
: about hydrogeneted chimicals ( 4-fa 2-fa ect.. ) Disclaimer: Please be sure to read this thread in its entirity rather than just the first post. While this first post was well received it contains a number of assumptions, errors, and statements that contradict the findings of empirical research. These issues are highlighted throughout the discussion, so the whole thread will give a much more balanced overview of this topic than this post alone. The poster's claim to be an experienced pharmacologist and bioinformatician is also bogus.. he works in IT.
_____________
(end mod edit)
Hello everyone,
Look I'm posting here as an pharmacologist and bioinformatics researcher to WARN you guys that you are putting yourselves at risk by consuming halogenated amphetamines, which are increasingly sold as Research Chemicals (RCs). The main substances in question I refer to are known as 2-FA, 3-FA, and 4-FA -- in particular, I am warning about 4-FA.
Some of you know there is a risk of neurotoxicity with compounds such as 4-FA, and choose do consume these substances anyway with informed consent. That's fine. As long as you know there is a risk of brain damage (with the risk level unknown), and you accept that risk , then go ahead.
I am writing to those young people, without the wisdom of age or a background in pharmacology or chemistry, are are just starting in research chemicals (RCs) who do not understand or are unaware that the risk profile of halogenated amphetamines (2-FA, 3-FA, 4-FA, etc) is MUCH DIFFERENT than older research chemicals with a relatively safe track record (2C-I , etc).
MDMA and 2C-I etc are relatively safe when used in moderation, and CANNOT be compared to compounds such as 4-FA. Yes, MDMA has a risk of neurotoxicity, but when used in moderation (a few times a year) that risk is relatively low. 4-FA has a MUCH MUCH higher risk.
Here is why you are at risk if you consume halogenated amphetamines.
1) Amphetamine is ALREADY neurotoxic due to the formation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) in the brain [1]. The neurotoxicity is dose-dependent and duration dependent. If you are on a low-dose Adderall prescription for a couple of years, this is certainly safer than someone who is consuming 1g of methamphetamine a day for a couple of years, but in both cases there is a risk.
[1] Prostaglandin H synthase-catalyzed bioactivation of amphetamines to free radical intermediates that cause CNS regional DNA oxidation and nerve terminal degeneration
http://www.fasebj.org/content/20/6/638.short
Racemic Amphetamine (low-to-moderate neurotoxicity)
Racemic Methamphetamine (moderate-to-high neurotoxicity)
So listen: Read the link above [1]. Just by consuming amphetamines (especially methamphetamine), you are putting your brain at risk due to the formation of ROS via Prostaglandin H. The impact of amphetamine neurotoxicity be reduced by pre-treating yourself with approximately 500mg of aspirin for every 5mg-10mg of amphetamine, up to a maximum of approx. 4g of aspirin per day. Read the study I linked for more info.
The risk with regular amphetamine is there, it exists in rats, but there are additional significant risks with compounds like 2-FA, 3-FA , and 4-FA...
On to the really toxic stuff, the HALOGENATED AMPHETAMINES. ...
2) Halogenated amphetamines (the Research Chemicals) such as 2-FA, 3-FA, and 4-FA inherit risk profile of dextroamphetamine and methamphetamine above(with low to high neurotoxicity risk) well as inherit toxicity profile of a really dangerous and neurotoxic related compound known as para-chloroamphetamine.
Para-chloroamphetamine is used to selectively KILL (yes, kill) serotonin neurons in the brain in labs around the world. It is MUCH more toxic than MDMA or Amphetamine. Let's take a look at what this awful amphetamine analog looks like (4-CA).
Para-chloroamphetamine (4-CA): Highly toxic to serotonin neurons.
Hmmm... that 4-CA alot like a substance sold by unscrupulous research chemical vendors, out to make a buck on your suffering -- even if they cause you brain damage. Compare the above structure of Para-chloroamphetamine (4-CA) to your beloved 4-FA.
4-FA: Almost the exact same thing as the highly serotonin-toxic para-chloroamphetamine pictured above. Oh shi0.
Oh, you don't believe me that para-chloroamphetamine is toxic?
Let me quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
[Para-chloroamphetamine, aka. 4-CA] is used as a neurotoxin by neurobiologists to selectively kill serotonergic neurons for research purposes, in the same way that 6-hydroxydopamine is used to kill dopaminergic neurons.[2][3][4][5]
The ONLY different between the research chemical 4-FA and the highly- neurotoxic Para-chloroamphetamine (4-CA) is the substitution of a single atom -- a fluorine atom for a chlorine atom.
The Research Chemical 4-FA has a fluorine in a para position on the phenyl group which is VERY CLOSELY RELATED to the highly neurotoxic 4-CA (para-chloroamphetamine), which has a chlorine in a para position on the phenyl group.
These compounds are SO SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR that they are considered 'obvious' functional analogs according to U.S. patent law. If you were to patent para-chloroamphetamine for its neurotoxic properties, it is highly likely the U.S. patent office would consider your beloved 4-FA to also have neurotoxic properties (it is 'obvious' to an expert in the field), and would be considered non-patentable.
Given that the ONLY difference between 4-FA and 4-CA (para-chloroamphetamine) is the type of halogen atom, it is highly likely that 4-FA retains some of the neurotoxic properties of 4-CA. The nature and scope of the neurotoxicity is up for debate, but the risk is certainly there. And in my opinion the risk is very high. The physical properties of the halogens are just TOO similar (electronegativity, radius, orbital configuration, etc).
In the same way that anyone who has taken 2C-B will say it is VERY SIMILAR to 2C-I (2c-B / 2c-I causes the same body feelings, the same psychedelic effects, etc and the only difference is ONE HALOGEN ATOM and they only really differ in the biological half-life), anyone taking 4-FA is running the risk of the same neurotoxicity present in 4-CA (difference also = ONE HALOGEN ATOM).
Let's take a look at the properties of the HALOGEN SUBSTITUENTS ... they are VERY SIMILAR. If you are taking 4-FA, you might as well be taking para-chloroamphetamine (4-CA).
Electronegativity of fluorine and chlorine are VERY SIMILAR.
Fluorine and Chlorine have the SAME VALENCE ELECTRON CONFIGURATION (as they are in the same column in the periodic table.)
Fluorine and Chlorine have VERY SIMILAR ATOMIC RADII
(look at F- at 136 and Cl- at 181).
Look at the above properties. 4-FA and 4-CA (para-chloroamphetamine) are so closely related that they might as well be the same chemical. This is like the difference between the OTC antihistamine Chlorpheniramine vs the OTC antihistimine Brompheniramine. They only differ in biological half-life.
There is a small chance (less than 10%) that 4-FA is safe. But the weight of the evidence points to erring on the side of caution -- we need to assume that halogenated amphetamines are neurotoxic (90% probability) -- and that they are much more neurotoxic than regular amphetamines. The evidence is overwhelming.
Given that 4-FA is ALMOST IDENTICAL to the highly neurotoxic 4-CA (para-chloroamphetamine), differing by ONLY ONE ATOM,
Do you really want to take that risk with your brain?
---
P.S.
To users of 4-FA who are concerned:
Okay, so you just read my post, and you believe me. You know that you have taken a risk with your brain, and you want to stop. You don't know how much damage is done (if at all), but you want to get a handle on things and minimize the risk.
What do you do to heal, and to minimize the risk of damage?
1) Stop taking halogenated amphetamines immediately. Do not take them again. You may choose to take regular amphetamines, but halogenated ones are just too risky.
2) Start taking a good multivitamin. Not that Centrum crap. Take a good food-based multivitamin at least 1x / 2x a day from Whole Foods or other organic food store.
3) Eat good diet full of fresh raw foods with fruits and vegetables.
4) Consume melatonin 3-6mg at bedtime each night. This is a powerful mitochondrial antioxidant and promotes brain cell survival during ischemia and other conditions.
5) Consume Acetyl-L-Carnitine at a dose of 2-3gday along side a good source of Omega3 fatty acids. The Acetyl-l-carnitine is a cofactor in the transport of Omega3s and also promotes brain tissue survival as well as regeneration. Consume at least 2-6g Omega3s per day alongside the ALCAR (a mitochondrial cofactor).
Good luck everyone. Please stop taking this 4-FA crap unless you really know what you are doing and have read all the Pubmed literature and made a decision for yourself. Otherwise you are literally playing Russian Roulette with your brain tissue.
Good little read although I get what your driving at couldn't you just state the evidence rather than goign into the 'I'm an experienced pharmacologist' line of things.
People's health is at risk. Since when did a statement of fact become politically incorrect?
Fact: I am an experienced pharmacologist, and I have been employed for a number of years at the National Institutes of Health (NIH).
That's unfortunate a statement of fact would make you uncomfortable, but I think it's relevant to my credibility.
On to the chemistry...
Quote:
Aren't you slightly jumping to conclusions with this 'you are pretty much taking 4CA when using 4FA' crap.
Short answer: No, I don't think so. There is a high likelyhood that 4-FA has neurotoxic properties.
TL;DR Answer:
I explained this if you read my post carefully -- I used the examples of chlorpheniramine vs brompheniramine -- two OTC antihistamines with markedly similar pharmacological profiles. In fact, they are a good analogy for 4-FA vs. 4-CA because:
WHY USE CHLOR/BROMPHENIRAMINE AS AN ANALOGY FOR 4-FA/4-CA
1) Chlorpheniramine and Brompheniramine also differ by ONE HALOGEN ATOM.
2) Chlorpheniramine and Brompheniramine also are biologically active in the CNS.
3) Chlorpheniramine and Brompheniramine also contain single highly electronegative substituents on a phenyl ring.
4) Chlorpheniramine and Brompheniramine are extensively studied in the medical literature.
Now chlorpheniramine vs brompheniramine are not alone among compounds which differ by a single halogen atom. There are numerous examples across all classes of compounds (benzodiazepines, antivirals, antidepressants, antihistamines, etc) . Literally hundreds of compounds, if not thousands. All these compounds show that halogenated resonance-ring substituents invariably have similar pharmacological and phamacokinetic profiles. Often they are similar as long as the substituent retains the same radius and electronegativity ... This 'rule' holds the vast majority of the time.
WHY: Pharmacological Similarity of halogen substituents is the RULE -- not the exception. When we are talking a single-atom difference, and that atom is an electron-withdrawing halogen in the same position on a ring, often the compounds will retain similar biological activity. Not always. But usually.
The burden of proof is on the RC vendors to prove that 4-FA is a non-neurotoxic exception from 4-CA -- not on me to prove this PATTERN applies to 4-FA. This is especially true when we are dealing with human health -- we need to err on the side of caution. The only reason that 4-FA might be different is because Fluorine has some unique properties and has the smallest atomic radius (and is most highly electronegative [electron withdrawing] out of common pharmaceutical phenyl ring substituents). That is ALL it has going for it which might make it an exception to the rule.
Are you willing to bet your health on the fact that 4-FA is an exception to a rule which is consistent across many classes of pharmaceuticals? I wouldn't, and that's why I've posted. I could less about a pharmacological chest-thumping contest, I'm just trying to help keep people from getting hurt inadvertently.
I'll elaborate on what I mean here... specifically regarding
Chlorpheniramine vs Brompheniramine, the two OTC antihistamines .
Chlorpheniramine: OTC Antihistimine.
Dose: 4 mg orally every 4 to 6 hours.
Maximum dose 32 mg/day.
Elimination Half-life: 20 hours
Brompheniramine: OTC Antihistimine.
Dose: 4 mg to 8 mg orally every 6 hours as needed
Maximum dose: 24 mg/day.
Elimination Half-life: 25 hours
*THESE TWO ANTIHISTAMINE COMPOUNDS ABOVE ARE VERY SIMILAR IN ACTIVITY IN THE HUMAN BODY -- PROBABLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM ONE ANOTHER IN A 'BLIND' STUDY. (and like 4-FA/4CA they differ by one halogen atom).
Notice above, chlorpheniramine and brompheniramine differ by a single atom... a halogen substituent... Chlorine vs Bromine ... which as in 4-FA and 4-CA are both halogens in the same column in the periodic table with the same valence electron configuration.
Let's look once again at 4-CA (neurotoxic) vs 4-FA (the RC in question):
4-CA (Left): Highly Selective-Serotonin Neurotoxic ///// 4-FA (Right): Popular RC with likely Neurotoxicity
4-CA and 4-FA also differ by one halogen atom... Are we to expect these drugs don't follow the 'natural' pattern in pharmacology?
Why should we expect the 4-FA is not neurotoxic, when 4-CA is neurotoxic?
The burden of proof is on the Scientific Establishment and on the RC vendors to prove 4-FA is safe.
We can reason by analogy and structure-activity relationships between Chlorpheniramine/Brompheniramine and 4-FA and 4-CA (neurotoxic). From this, we can infer that there is a strong likelyhood that 4-FA retains the neurotoxic profiles of 4-CA, since compounds that follow this pattern (like chlorpheniramine/brompheniramine) almost always have similar pharmacological activity.
Now, the example above is COMMON.
Chlorpheniarmine vs. Brompheniramine are just one of hundreds (if not thousands) of examples in Clinical Pharmacology where we can show that two compounds , which differ by a single halogen atom, retain remarkably similar biological activity, pharmacokinetics, and toxicity profiles.
Quote:
Aren't you slightly jumping to conclusions
No one is not jumping to conclusions... As with chlorpheniramine vs brompheniramine.... There are tons of examples like this:
Examples of Drugs which differ by ONE HALOGEN ATOM which retain remarkably similar properties:
1) 2C-B / 2C-I /2C-C
2) DOB / DOI / DOCl
3) Chlorpheniramine / Brompheniramine
4) Alprazolam / Triazolam
5) Clonazepam / Nitrazepam
Why do you think that DOI and DOB are similar in activity (as well as dose and half-life?) Or why Alprazolam and Triazolam (differing by one chlorine atom vs one hydrogen atom) both have similar 'feel' (as well as onset, poteny, and duration)?
Alprazolam (Xanax) vs. Triazolam (Halcyon)
The differ by the presence or absence of one Chlorine halogen atom on the phenyl ring (analogous to Chlorpheniramine vs Brompheniramine, or 4-FA/4-CA, etc).
Quote:
It was my understanding that each of the 2C halogen family were suprisingly different but again I'm tired and can't read up right now.
Have you taken them both? Anyone who has taken 2C-B and 2C-I would tell you the two compounds are remarkably similar in 'nature' and only differ in more subtle aspects. The dose ranges similar. The onset is similar. The half-life is similar. The effects are VERY similar. In fact, I would venture to say it would be difficult for an unexperienced user to tell them apart. Of course, an experienced user would be able to tell easily, but that's not my point. My point is that these compounds are remarkably similar in action , and also differ by a single halogen atom.
The same would apply to alprazolam (Xanax) and triazolam (Halcyon). Both are high-potency benzodiazepines. Anyone who's taken both will of course tell you that they prefer one or the other, that one is more euphoric than the other ,etc, but again, there will not be a consensus on these properties.
What's remarkable is that Xanax and Halcyon are more 'similar' than 'different'. The Dose range is the same. The onset is rapid in both cases. Both drugs will wear off in a similar amount of time (6-10 hours) The effects are very similar (disinhibition, muscle relaxion, sleepiness, anxiety reduction , etc).
Quote:
It was also my understanding that even the smallest change in structure of a molecule could drastically change the properties of that molecule.
Sure that's true to an extent, but there are situations where two drugs will behave identically, and we can make reasonable predictions based on Structure-Activity Relationships (SAR) (for example, make inferences based on differences of only a single atom). There is a whole field of study and the pharmaceutical companies spend billions$ on this research each year.
As I've explained, if you have two compounds that are IDENTICAL with the exception of a single halogen atom, then the PATTERN (I call it a RULE) in pharmacology is that they will be near-identical in activity and half-life (within approximately ONE order of magnitude). There are exceptions to this , but they are just that... EXCEPTIONS.
The human body treats halogens similarly because it is the STRUCTURE OF THE COMPOUND (and the electron configuration) that determines the chemistry, not the specific atom at any specific place. Chemistry is determined by overall interactions of electrons, their structure, their density, their 'electron cloud shape' and associated probability density functions, quantum orbital structure, charge, hydrophilic/hydrophobic interactions, Van Der Waals radius in water, etc. between molecules according to QED, and at higher levels in biology , is determined by the chemistry of proteins and nucleic acids (RNA, DNA)
On the basic level, when you have two compounds that are IDENTICAL (4-FA and 4-CA) with the exception of a SINGLE ATOM, it is reasonable to expect the pharmacology to be similar. I think it's incredibly stupid for people to be taking 4-FA, but as long as they are aware that 4-CA is a highly neurotoxic compound and still choose to risk it, then that is your decision as an individual according to principles of individual liberty.
I have posted because I feel it is my responsibility (by nature of knowledge and position) to try to make people aware of these risks to they do not accidentally screw up their brains and regret making decisions with incomplete information.
I am always happy to engage on a scientific level. The issue here is that of neurotoxicity and possible harm reduction of RCs.
Politically, haven't enough people died of the Bromo-dragonFLY nonsense? Wasn't that enough of a tragedy to reconsider and take a more conservative approach to RC safety? I would say the answer is Yes.
sh4mw0w added 87 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...
Quote:
I always had the feeling the FA series was really bad for you- considering the toxicity of flourine itself...
The fluoride ion (F-) is incredibly toxic , but (as mentioned on the other 4-FA thread), when Fluorine is bound to a ring, it forms one of the strongest bonds in organic chemistry. That is, it takes a large amount of activation energy to get the fluorine off the ring (to produce the toxic fluoride ion).
This process usually only occurs on a lab bench with reagents, and rarely occurs in the body.
On the other hand, how 4-FA is metabolized in the human body is not known. So this is just another reason not to take it, although I highly doubt any fluoride ion is being produced in the body. Drinking water and toothpaste comprises your main exposure to fluoride (F-).
Just as a side note, normally amphetamine is metabolized in your body by adding -OH groups to various parts of the molecule. This includes the para-position on the benzene ring, which would suggest that part of the reason 4-FA has a longer duration of action than amphetamine is that the para-fluoride halogen makes the molecule resistant to degradation by the body.
Most likely, 4-FA is metabolized to para-fluoro-norephedrine prior to being excreted (as opposed to para-hydroxy-amphetamine and para-hydroxy-norephedrine which comprise common dextro-amphetamine metabolites in rats). Or it could result in para-fluoro benzoic acid.
Quote:
I am a firm advocate of pentedrone as a stim.
Well with any RC there is a risk, buy my firm opinion is that the risk of pentedrone is MUCH lower than the para-halogenated amphetamines.
Pentedrone is basically a methcathinone analog. Due to the latter having an acceptable toxicity profile, I suspect the risk of pentedrone is much much more acceptable than 4-FA (or any halogen-substituted amphetamine for that matter). But my goal here really is to help people avoid poisoning themselves with idiotic RCs off the internet.
[1] Prostaglandin H synthase-catalyzed bioactivation of amphetamines to free radical intermediates that cause CNS regional DNA oxidation and nerve terminal degeneration
http://www.fasebj.org/content/20/6/638.short
Racemic Amphetamine (low-to-moderate neurotoxicity)
Racemic Methamphetamine (moderate-to-high neurotoxicity)
So listen: Read the link above [1]. Just by consuming amphetamines (especially methamphetamine), you are putting your brain at risk due to the formation of ROS via Prostaglandin H. The impact of amphetamine neurotoxicity be reduced by pre-treating yourself with approximately 500mg of aspirin for every 5mg-10mg of amphetamine, up to a maximum of approx. 4g of aspirin per day. Read the study I linked for more info.
The risk with regular amphetamine is there, it exists in rats, but there are additional significant risks with compounds like 2-FA, 3-FA , and 4-FA...
On to the really toxic stuff, the HALOGENATED AMPHETAMINES. ...
2) Halogenated amphetamines (the Research Chemicals) such as 2-FA, 3-FA, and 4-FA inherit risk profile of dextroamphetamine and methamphetamine above(with low to high neurotoxicity risk) well as inherit toxicity profile of a really dangerous and neurotoxic related compound known as para-chloroamphetamine.
Para-chloroamphetamine is used to selectively KILL (yes, kill) serotonin neurons in the brain in labs around the world. It is MUCH more toxic than MDMA or Amphetamine. Let's take a look at what this awful amphetamine analog looks like (4-CA).
Para-chloroamphetamine (4-CA): Highly toxic to serotonin neurons.
Hmmm... that 4-CA alot like a substance sold by unscrupulous research chemical vendors, out to make a buck on your suffering -- even if they cause you brain damage. Compare the above structure of Para-chloroamphetamine (4-CA) to your beloved 4-FA.
4-FA: Almost the exact same thing as the highly serotonin-toxic para-chloroamphetamine pictured above. Oh shi0.
Oh, you don't believe me that para-chloroamphetamine is toxic?
Let me quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
[Para-chloroamphetamine, aka. 4-CA] is used as a neurotoxin by neurobiologists to selectively kill serotonergic neurons for research purposes, in the same way that 6-hydroxydopamine is used to kill dopaminergic neurons.[2][3][4][5]
The ONLY different between the research chemical 4-FA and the highly- neurotoxic Para-chloroamphetamine (4-CA) is the substitution of a single atom -- a fluorine atom for a chlorine atom.
The Research Chemical 4-FA has a fluorine in a para position on the phenyl group which is VERY CLOSELY RELATED to the highly neurotoxic 4-CA (para-chloroamphetamine), which has a chlorine in a para position on the phenyl group.
These compounds are SO SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR that they are considered 'obvious' functional analogs according to U.S. patent law. If you were to patent para-chloroamphetamine for its neurotoxic properties, it is highly likely the U.S. patent office would consider your beloved 4-FA to also have neurotoxic properties (it is 'obvious' to an expert in the field), and would be considered non-patentable.
Given that the ONLY difference between 4-FA and 4-CA (para-chloroamphetamine) is the type of halogen atom, it is highly likely that 4-FA retains some of the neurotoxic properties of 4-CA. The nature and scope of the neurotoxicity is up for debate, but the risk is certainly there. And in my opinion the risk is very high. The physical properties of the halogens are just TOO similar (electronegativity, radius, orbital configuration, etc).
In the same way that anyone who has taken 2C-B will say it is VERY SIMILAR to 2C-I (2c-B / 2c-I causes the same body feelings, the same psychedelic effects, etc and the only difference is ONE HALOGEN ATOM and they only really differ in the biological half-life), anyone taking 4-FA is running the risk of the same neurotoxicity present in 4-CA (difference also = ONE HALOGEN ATOM).
Let's take a look at the properties of the HALOGEN SUBSTITUENTS ... they are VERY SIMILAR. If you are taking 4-FA, you might as well be taking para-chloroamphetamine (4-CA).
Electronegativity of fluorine and chlorine are VERY SIMILAR.
Fluorine and Chlorine have the SAME VALENCE ELECTRON CONFIGURATION (as they are in the same column in the periodic table.)
Fluorine and Chlorine have VERY SIMILAR ATOMIC RADII
(look at F- at 136 and Cl- at 181).
Look at the above properties. 4-FA and 4-CA (para-chloroamphetamine) are so closely related that they might as well be the same chemical. This is like the difference between the OTC antihistamine Chlorpheniramine vs the OTC antihistimine Brompheniramine. They only differ in biological half-life.
There is a small chance (less than 10%) that 4-FA is safe. But the weight of the evidence points to erring on the side of caution -- we need to assume that halogenated amphetamines are neurotoxic (90% probability) -- and that they are much more neurotoxic than regular amphetamines. The evidence is overwhelming.
Given that 4-FA is ALMOST IDENTICAL to the highly neurotoxic 4-CA (para-chloroamphetamine), differing by ONLY ONE ATOM,
Do you really want to take that risk with your brain?
---
P.S.
To users of 4-FA who are concerned:
Okay, so you just read my post, and you believe me. You know that you have taken a risk with your brain, and you want to stop. You don't know how much damage is done (if at all), but you want to get a handle on things and minimize the risk.
What do you do to heal, and to minimize the risk of damage?
1) Stop taking halogenated amphetamines immediately. Do not take them again. You may choose to take regular amphetamines, but halogenated ones are just too risky.
2) Start taking a good multivitamin. Not that Centrum crap. Take a good food-based multivitamin at least 1x / 2x a day from Whole Foods or other organic food store.
3) Eat good diet full of fresh raw foods with fruits and vegetables.
4) Consume melatonin 3-6mg at bedtime each night. This is a powerful mitochondrial antioxidant and promotes brain cell survival during ischemia and other conditions.
5) Consume Acetyl-L-Carnitine at a dose of 2-3gday along side a good source of Omega3 fatty acids. The Acetyl-l-carnitine is a cofactor in the transport of Omega3s and also promotes brain tissue survival as well as regeneration. Consume at least 2-6g Omega3s per day alongside the ALCAR (a mitochondrial cofactor).
Good luck everyone. Please stop taking this 4-FA crap unless you really know what you are doing and have read all the Pubmed literature and made a decision for yourself. Otherwise you are literally playing Russian Roulette with your brain tissue.
Good little read although I get what your driving at couldn't you just state the evidence rather than goign into the 'I'm an experienced pharmacologist' line of things.
People's health is at risk. Since when did a statement of fact become politically incorrect?
Fact: I am an experienced pharmacologist, and I have been employed for a number of years at the National Institutes of Health (NIH).
That's unfortunate a statement of fact would make you uncomfortable, but I think it's relevant to my credibility.
On to the chemistry...
Quote:
Aren't you slightly jumping to conclusions with this 'you are pretty much taking 4CA when using 4FA' crap.
Short answer: No, I don't think so. There is a high likelyhood that 4-FA has neurotoxic properties.
TL;DR Answer:
I explained this if you read my post carefully -- I used the examples of chlorpheniramine vs brompheniramine -- two OTC antihistamines with markedly similar pharmacological profiles. In fact, they are a good analogy for 4-FA vs. 4-CA because:
WHY USE CHLOR/BROMPHENIRAMINE AS AN ANALOGY FOR 4-FA/4-CA
1) Chlorpheniramine and Brompheniramine also differ by ONE HALOGEN ATOM.
2) Chlorpheniramine and Brompheniramine also are biologically active in the CNS.
3) Chlorpheniramine and Brompheniramine also contain single highly electronegative substituents on a phenyl ring.
4) Chlorpheniramine and Brompheniramine are extensively studied in the medical literature.
Now chlorpheniramine vs brompheniramine are not alone among compounds which differ by a single halogen atom. There are numerous examples across all classes of compounds (benzodiazepines, antivirals, antidepressants, antihistamines, etc) . Literally hundreds of compounds, if not thousands. All these compounds show that halogenated resonance-ring substituents invariably have similar pharmacological and phamacokinetic profiles. Often they are similar as long as the substituent retains the same radius and electronegativity ... This 'rule' holds the vast majority of the time.
WHY: Pharmacological Similarity of halogen substituents is the RULE -- not the exception. When we are talking a single-atom difference, and that atom is an electron-withdrawing halogen in the same position on a ring, often the compounds will retain similar biological activity. Not always. But usually.
The burden of proof is on the RC vendors to prove that 4-FA is a non-neurotoxic exception from 4-CA -- not on me to prove this PATTERN applies to 4-FA. This is especially true when we are dealing with human health -- we need to err on the side of caution. The only reason that 4-FA might be different is because Fluorine has some unique properties and has the smallest atomic radius (and is most highly electronegative [electron withdrawing] out of common pharmaceutical phenyl ring substituents). That is ALL it has going for it which might make it an exception to the rule.
Are you willing to bet your health on the fact that 4-FA is an exception to a rule which is consistent across many classes of pharmaceuticals? I wouldn't, and that's why I've posted. I could less about a pharmacological chest-thumping contest, I'm just trying to help keep people from getting hurt inadvertently.
I'll elaborate on what I mean here... specifically regarding
Chlorpheniramine vs Brompheniramine, the two OTC antihistamines .
Chlorpheniramine: OTC Antihistimine.
Dose: 4 mg orally every 4 to 6 hours.
Maximum dose 32 mg/day.
Elimination Half-life: 20 hours
Brompheniramine: OTC Antihistimine.
Dose: 4 mg to 8 mg orally every 6 hours as needed
Maximum dose: 24 mg/day.
Elimination Half-life: 25 hours
*THESE TWO ANTIHISTAMINE COMPOUNDS ABOVE ARE VERY SIMILAR IN ACTIVITY IN THE HUMAN BODY -- PROBABLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM ONE ANOTHER IN A 'BLIND' STUDY. (and like 4-FA/4CA they differ by one halogen atom).
Notice above, chlorpheniramine and brompheniramine differ by a single atom... a halogen substituent... Chlorine vs Bromine ... which as in 4-FA and 4-CA are both halogens in the same column in the periodic table with the same valence electron configuration.
Let's look once again at 4-CA (neurotoxic) vs 4-FA (the RC in question):
4-CA (Left): Highly Selective-Serotonin Neurotoxic ///// 4-FA (Right): Popular RC with likely Neurotoxicity
4-CA and 4-FA also differ by one halogen atom... Are we to expect these drugs don't follow the 'natural' pattern in pharmacology?
Why should we expect the 4-FA is not neurotoxic, when 4-CA is neurotoxic?
The burden of proof is on the Scientific Establishment and on the RC vendors to prove 4-FA is safe.
We can reason by analogy and structure-activity relationships between Chlorpheniramine/Brompheniramine and 4-FA and 4-CA (neurotoxic). From this, we can infer that there is a strong likelyhood that 4-FA retains the neurotoxic profiles of 4-CA, since compounds that follow this pattern (like chlorpheniramine/brompheniramine) almost always have similar pharmacological activity.
Now, the example above is COMMON.
Chlorpheniarmine vs. Brompheniramine are just one of hundreds (if not thousands) of examples in Clinical Pharmacology where we can show that two compounds , which differ by a single halogen atom, retain remarkably similar biological activity, pharmacokinetics, and toxicity profiles.
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Aren't you slightly jumping to conclusions
No one is not jumping to conclusions... As with chlorpheniramine vs brompheniramine.... There are tons of examples like this:
Examples of Drugs which differ by ONE HALOGEN ATOM which retain remarkably similar properties:
1) 2C-B / 2C-I /2C-C
2) DOB / DOI / DOCl
3) Chlorpheniramine / Brompheniramine
4) Alprazolam / Triazolam
5) Clonazepam / Nitrazepam
Why do you think that DOI and DOB are similar in activity (as well as dose and half-life?) Or why Alprazolam and Triazolam (differing by one chlorine atom vs one hydrogen atom) both have similar 'feel' (as well as onset, poteny, and duration)?
Alprazolam (Xanax) vs. Triazolam (Halcyon)
The differ by the presence or absence of one Chlorine halogen atom on the phenyl ring (analogous to Chlorpheniramine vs Brompheniramine, or 4-FA/4-CA, etc).
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It was my understanding that each of the 2C halogen family were suprisingly different but again I'm tired and can't read up right now.
Have you taken them both? Anyone who has taken 2C-B and 2C-I would tell you the two compounds are remarkably similar in 'nature' and only differ in more subtle aspects. The dose ranges similar. The onset is similar. The half-life is similar. The effects are VERY similar. In fact, I would venture to say it would be difficult for an unexperienced user to tell them apart. Of course, an experienced user would be able to tell easily, but that's not my point. My point is that these compounds are remarkably similar in action , and also differ by a single halogen atom.
The same would apply to alprazolam (Xanax) and triazolam (Halcyon). Both are high-potency benzodiazepines. Anyone who's taken both will of course tell you that they prefer one or the other, that one is more euphoric than the other ,etc, but again, there will not be a consensus on these properties.
What's remarkable is that Xanax and Halcyon are more 'similar' than 'different'. The Dose range is the same. The onset is rapid in both cases. Both drugs will wear off in a similar amount of time (6-10 hours) The effects are very similar (disinhibition, muscle relaxion, sleepiness, anxiety reduction , etc).
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It was also my understanding that even the smallest change in structure of a molecule could drastically change the properties of that molecule.
Sure that's true to an extent, but there are situations where two drugs will behave identically, and we can make reasonable predictions based on Structure-Activity Relationships (SAR) (for example, make inferences based on differences of only a single atom). There is a whole field of study and the pharmaceutical companies spend billions$ on this research each year.
As I've explained, if you have two compounds that are IDENTICAL with the exception of a single halogen atom, then the PATTERN (I call it a RULE) in pharmacology is that they will be near-identical in activity and half-life (within approximately ONE order of magnitude). There are exceptions to this , but they are just that... EXCEPTIONS.
The human body treats halogens similarly because it is the STRUCTURE OF THE COMPOUND (and the electron configuration) that determines the chemistry, not the specific atom at any specific place. Chemistry is determined by overall interactions of electrons, their structure, their density, their 'electron cloud shape' and associated probability density functions, quantum orbital structure, charge, hydrophilic/hydrophobic interactions, Van Der Waals radius in water, etc. between molecules according to QED, and at higher levels in biology , is determined by the chemistry of proteins and nucleic acids (RNA, DNA)
On the basic level, when you have two compounds that are IDENTICAL (4-FA and 4-CA) with the exception of a SINGLE ATOM, it is reasonable to expect the pharmacology to be similar. I think it's incredibly stupid for people to be taking 4-FA, but as long as they are aware that 4-CA is a highly neurotoxic compound and still choose to risk it, then that is your decision as an individual according to principles of individual liberty.
I have posted because I feel it is my responsibility (by nature of knowledge and position) to try to make people aware of these risks to they do not accidentally screw up their brains and regret making decisions with incomplete information.
I am always happy to engage on a scientific level. The issue here is that of neurotoxicity and possible harm reduction of RCs.
Politically, haven't enough people died of the Bromo-dragonFLY nonsense? Wasn't that enough of a tragedy to reconsider and take a more conservative approach to RC safety? I would say the answer is Yes.
sh4mw0w added 87 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...
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I always had the feeling the FA series was really bad for you- considering the toxicity of flourine itself...
The fluoride ion (F-) is incredibly toxic , but (as mentioned on the other 4-FA thread), when Fluorine is bound to a ring, it forms one of the strongest bonds in organic chemistry. That is, it takes a large amount of activation energy to get the fluorine off the ring (to produce the toxic fluoride ion).
This process usually only occurs on a lab bench with reagents, and rarely occurs in the body.
On the other hand, how 4-FA is metabolized in the human body is not known. So this is just another reason not to take it, although I highly doubt any fluoride ion is being produced in the body. Drinking water and toothpaste comprises your main exposure to fluoride (F-).
Just as a side note, normally amphetamine is metabolized in your body by adding -OH groups to various parts of the molecule. This includes the para-position on the benzene ring, which would suggest that part of the reason 4-FA has a longer duration of action than amphetamine is that the para-fluoride halogen makes the molecule resistant to degradation by the body.
Most likely, 4-FA is metabolized to para-fluoro-norephedrine prior to being excreted (as opposed to para-hydroxy-amphetamine and para-hydroxy-norephedrine which comprise common dextro-amphetamine metabolites in rats). Or it could result in para-fluoro benzoic acid.
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I am a firm advocate of pentedrone as a stim.
Well with any RC there is a risk, buy my firm opinion is that the risk of pentedrone is MUCH lower than the para-halogenated amphetamines.
Pentedrone is basically a methcathinone analog. Due to the latter having an acceptable toxicity profile, I suspect the risk of pentedrone is much much more acceptable than 4-FA (or any halogen-substituted amphetamine for that matter). But my goal here really is to help people avoid poisoning themselves with idiotic RCs off the internet.
cybergollum
Bluelighter
It really old thing what was discussed million times in (X)F-A threads, check there (use keywords "toxicity of fluoroamphetamines" or something). Seems like there is no really worry about.
Anyway, flour isn't only toxic but can be useful. For example, drinking water shall contain it in dosages 0.5-1 mg per litre. Mass fraction of fluor in 3f-p (or 3f-a) is really low. Moreover you receive not an active fluor (if your concerns just about it) but in more like passive bounded form. This is not only my thoughts, I somewhere read about it... Don't remember where so better don't trust me and google it.
For example:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/561454-Neurotoxicity-of-p-haloamphetamines.
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/561454-Neurotoxicity-of-p-haloamphetamines?p=9447277&viewfull=1#post9447277 said:
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kingqueen1
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 213
Thanks You Gollum, found that in the post i made of the other forums so yes no much concern about fluor in these, good to know. Quote:
I always had the feeling the FA series was really bad for you- considering the toxicity of flourine itself...
The fluoride ion (F-) is incredibly toxic , but (as mentioned on the other 4-FA thread), when Fluorine is bound to a ring, it forms one of the strongest bonds in organic chemistry. That is, it takes a large amount of activation energy to get the fluorine off the ring (to produce the toxic fluoride ion).
This process usually only occurs on a lab bench with reagents, and rarely occurs in the body.
On the other hand, how 4-FA is metabolized in the human body is not known. So this is just another reason not to take it, although I highly doubt any fluoride ion is being produced in the body. Drinking water and toothpaste comprises your main exposure to fluoride (F-).
I always had the feeling the FA series was really bad for you- considering the toxicity of flourine itself...
The fluoride ion (F-) is incredibly toxic , but (as mentioned on the other 4-FA thread), when Fluorine is bound to a ring, it forms one of the strongest bonds in organic chemistry. That is, it takes a large amount of activation energy to get the fluorine off the ring (to produce the toxic fluoride ion).
This process usually only occurs on a lab bench with reagents, and rarely occurs in the body.
On the other hand, how 4-FA is metabolized in the human body is not known. So this is just another reason not to take it, although I highly doubt any fluoride ion is being produced in the body. Drinking water and toothpaste comprises your main exposure to fluoride (F-).
t6apb
Bluelighter
first time trying today, got 500mg this morning and ive still got about half left. ive been snorting it with eyeballed doses, i'd estimate about 20-50mg a line. the burn is strong but goes quickly and once the pain has gone the stimulation and euphoria gently builds not so much a rush more like a chilled rush haha.
im loving it so far tho, alot more than EPH, best stim for along time thats for sure.
ive had a couple nifoxipams and a flubromazepam, i could probably still enjoy this without unlike EPH but the benzos just take the edge off.
ive noticed the euphoria builds over the day of use, each dose adds to it rather than slowly dissipates like on EPH.
im loving it so far tho, alot more than EPH, best stim for along time thats for sure.
ive had a couple nifoxipams and a flubromazepam, i could probably still enjoy this without unlike EPH but the benzos just take the edge off.
ive noticed the euphoria builds over the day of use, each dose adds to it rather than slowly dissipates like on EPH.
The article quoted in this post was really interesting, regarding the failure of 4-FA to produce a long lasting depletion of serotonin.
But to bring it back to topic, can anyone comment on how likely (or how impossible it is to speculate) that a similar tendency would be present in 3F-Phenmetrazine? My knowledge of chemistry is very basic compared to most here, it seems. I understand the logic of a fluoride bond being very strong and thus rarely being metabolized (or with the flouride component being isolated, it's not completely clear to me), but perhaps someone knows how Phenmetrazine is metabolized in the body in order to speculate or draw a comparison? I really have no idea how similar phenmetrazine is to amphetamine.
yaksha
Greenlighter
I want to comment on the concerns about Flouro-amphs vs this substance. 4-Fa was my drug of choice for a couple of weeks two or three months ago, and comparing that substance to this, simply based on the halogenated aspect of it I believe is a misnomer. 4-FA is extremely potent and has a marked effect on serotonin levels in your brain, I can speak to this first hand, I didn't do my research as well as I normally would before trying it, due to the fact that the initial amount came as a small free sample, I liked it so much I bought 5g and went on a week long binge. I could practically feel the serotonin sickness settling into my brain, I was suffering from dizzy spells, and extremely emotional. By nature I am a stoic and reserved person, on one particular day I found myself weeping in the kitchen for the most inane of reasons. This was my own poor decision-making obviously, but to get to the point.. 3F-PM doesn't have that same effect on your brain, I don't feel much, if any serotonin activity(please correct me guys if I'm wrong here), and from my own past research, as I understand the neurotoxicity angle, the danger comes in two forms with drugs like this-- Too much serotonin and too little, leading to brain injury on both sides. I don't feel as though 3F-PM has much, if any effect in this regard, I've noted absolutely no emotional instability, mood swings, or the like during or after stopping dosages. While we all (I hope) know how dangerous flouride is, I'm not convinced that all such substances deserve to be lumped into the same danger category as 4-FA, simply because they share an initial in their name...
If I understand this incorrectly please someone educate me, I'm interested to hear more on this topic as it relates to this, and many other halogenated amps, as I enjoy the crap out of several of them.
If I understand this incorrectly please someone educate me, I'm interested to hear more on this topic as it relates to this, and many other halogenated amps, as I enjoy the crap out of several of them.
Now this was posted on a Thursday. It's quite possible he did not receive his package until Monday, which was the last day he logged in.
Since he meant to write a report, but never did and has not logged in for over a week, presumably since the day he received his 3F-P... I wonder: Is he dead?
If anyone knows him, please tell us if he is okay. Otherwise, we should assume the worst.
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yaksha
Greenlighter
Isn't this his twitter account:https://twitter.com/youpi
It's active as of two days ago...
This may be tenuous but some of his past posts reference his nationality as french and this twitter account belongs to a french guy who certainly looks like he belongs on these forums, and the content of his twitter feed seems to share the same writing style.
Mmmm you might be onto something there. Maybe you could drop him a line? I don't have Twitter and this worries me quite a bit, especially since I was planning to write an IV report. :D
EDIT: Hm, he never talked about gaming on bluelight it seems. His Twitter seems to be 99% about gaming.
EDIT2: Never mind, that should be him. I will remove the "Attention" part. Quote from bl: "I always loved computing and started programming at 12"
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kingqueen1
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 213
Make sense about serotonin:
Phenmetrazine acts as a releasing agent of norepinephrine and dopamine with EC50 values of 50.4 ± 5.4 nM and 131 ± 11 nM, respectively.[8] It has negligible efficacy as a releaser of serotonin, with an EC50 value of only 7,765 ± 610 nM.[8]
weak
As a regular (ab)user of MPA I find 3-FPM rather mild. Doing 1/4 sized (25mg vs 100mg?) lines comparatively but these aren't giving much impetus/curiosity/abandon to do much more, especially given limited information of dose. Not as high, not as horny, not as fixated. Good and bad depending on your position/inclination. Can eat and sleep MUCH easer than on MPA: no 2 or even 3 day and night coding/wanking benders, to be followed by the munchies and marathon sleep sessions; just a bit up, then a bit less up, then a bit down, then normal(ish). Have combined with GHB and diclazepam, both effectively overcome 3-FPM stimulant effects at moderate doses. Nee flu symptoms (its a seasonal virus dudes!) and no obvious short term side effects beyond taking a stimulant. Less crash than EPH and definitely less nose bleeds (none so far, just bloody boogers
Observations based on ~250mg/day for 4 days at semi-regular intervals with excess alcohol.
TL;DR less fun, less anoretic, and shorter high than MPA. Can't count on it when sleep/residual drunkeness needs overcoming.
As a regular (ab)user of MPA I find 3-FPM rather mild. Doing 1/4 sized (25mg vs 100mg?) lines comparatively but these aren't giving much impetus/curiosity/abandon to do much more, especially given limited information of dose. Not as high, not as horny, not as fixated. Good and bad depending on your position/inclination. Can eat and sleep MUCH easer than on MPA: no 2 or even 3 day and night coding/wanking benders, to be followed by the munchies and marathon sleep sessions; just a bit up, then a bit less up, then a bit down, then normal(ish). Have combined with GHB and diclazepam, both effectively overcome 3-FPM stimulant effects at moderate doses. Nee flu symptoms (its a seasonal virus dudes!) and no obvious short term side effects beyond taking a stimulant. Less crash than EPH and definitely less nose bleeds (none so far, just bloody boogers
Observations based on ~250mg/day for 4 days at semi-regular intervals with excess alcohol.
TL;DR less fun, less anoretic, and shorter high than MPA. Can't count on it when sleep/residual drunkeness needs overcoming.
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While I personally didn't particularly like MPA compared to amphetamine or even MDPV back then and I hope it isn't that much weaker than amphetamine, this is still probably the best thing I have yet heard about 3-Fluoro-Phenmetrazine. We really don't need another stimulant to drive us insane lol.Can eat and sleep MUCH easer than on MPA: no 2 or even 3 day and night coding/wanking benders, to be followed by the munchies and marathon sleep sessions; just a bit up, then a bit less up, then a bit down, then normal(ish). Have combined with GHB and diclazepam, both effectively overcome 3-FPM stimulant effects at moderate doses. Nee flu symptoms (its a seasonal virus dudes!) and no obvious short term side effects beyond taking a stimulant. Less crash than EPH and definitely less nose bleeds (none so far, just bloody boogers
phatass
Bluelighter
ribozyme you shouldn't snort EPH... it's a descent stim, superior to 3F-P IMO/IME, just use another ROA than snorting, sublingual or plugged for example if you're after a small rush feeling with multiple times the duration of sniffed, and pretty much the same BA (not sure, but IMO)... can't advocate IM or IV i would advise to stear well cleaar of these ROA's despite having no personal experience with these ROA's... Oral EPH is also preferable to snorted, granted lower BA, no rush, but at least you're not destroying your nasal cavity...
And yes less crash than EPH, but less "up" "high" "stimulated" "mood lift" than EPH, so less crash makes sense...
not having a go at ya bro, just wanted to clear that up...
i personally prefer EPH to 3F-P, i prefer most stims i've tried to 3F-P (except MDPV, being the one that comes to mind which i rate less, because of it's fiendishness and resulting in seeing the shadow people, minor psychosis IME from compulsive re-dosing), i haven't tried MPA, but if you or others feel otherwise about 3F-P i guess it's simply different strokes, innit...
And yes less crash than EPH, but less "up" "high" "stimulated" "mood lift" than EPH, so less crash makes sense...
not having a go at ya bro, just wanted to clear that up...
i personally prefer EPH to 3F-P, i prefer most stims i've tried to 3F-P (except MDPV, being the one that comes to mind which i rate less, because of it's fiendishness and resulting in seeing the shadow people, minor psychosis IME from compulsive re-dosing), i haven't tried MPA, but if you or others feel otherwise about 3F-P i guess it's simply different strokes, innit...
LeeviON
Bluelighter
After a four-day halt on all stimulants, I snorted 52mg (divided into two lines, snorted within ten minutes of each other) of this substance at ~6:00 PM yesterday. It's now been over 15 hours and I didn't sleep a single minute last night, even through a shitload of benzos and weed.
I also got nausea & impending feeling of throwing up twice during the night. If you get this feeling, run into the bathroom instead of doing as I did and think "the nausea always dissipates when I lay down, so no need to go to the bathroom". Yeah, apparently it did not with this substance. -.-
I've been feeling slightly nauseous for the last hour now, but there's no doubt in my mind this would be caused by anything more worrisome than lack of sleep & healthy food. No doubt the cocktail of drugs (the FPM, and drugs I wanted to get me sedated enough to fall asleep) I took also played a role.
After not a second of sleep for the whole night (unlike on earlier experiments, during which I slept at least 3-4 hours every night) when I stand up, I start feeling very dizzy (I'd fall down if I couldn't sit within a few seconds, and I wouldn't see almost anything) and sometimes find myself in a weird state of confusion, as if I wouldn't know how to walk, and just 'freeze' there staring at something.. wait, have I said this earlier?
So anyway, if you ask me, make sure the next day is free of everything you'd need to do, or at least have a good amount of melatonin and other hypnotics for when you want to get some shuteye.
The only thing that still keeps me wondering is the half-life. It's like you would've taken a combo of snorted cocaine and.. I don't know.. a few extended-release caffeine pills without the side-effects. It feels like two completely different drugs put together, is what I'm trying to say.
Edit:
This is indeed true, and I like it whereas you seem to dislike it. The upside of FPM is that it seems to be possible to increase the dosage without notably increasing the negative side-effects. I don't recommend anyone to start with, or move to, any bigger than treshold- to low doses, though! Everyone reacts differently
I also got nausea & impending feeling of throwing up twice during the night. If you get this feeling, run into the bathroom instead of doing as I did and think "the nausea always dissipates when I lay down, so no need to go to the bathroom". Yeah, apparently it did not with this substance. -.-
I've been feeling slightly nauseous for the last hour now, but there's no doubt in my mind this would be caused by anything more worrisome than lack of sleep & healthy food. No doubt the cocktail of drugs (the FPM, and drugs I wanted to get me sedated enough to fall asleep) I took also played a role.
After not a second of sleep for the whole night (unlike on earlier experiments, during which I slept at least 3-4 hours every night) when I stand up, I start feeling very dizzy (I'd fall down if I couldn't sit within a few seconds, and I wouldn't see almost anything) and sometimes find myself in a weird state of confusion, as if I wouldn't know how to walk, and just 'freeze' there staring at something.. wait, have I said this earlier?
So anyway, if you ask me, make sure the next day is free of everything you'd need to do, or at least have a good amount of melatonin and other hypnotics for when you want to get some shuteye.
The only thing that still keeps me wondering is the half-life. It's like you would've taken a combo of snorted cocaine and.. I don't know.. a few extended-release caffeine pills without the side-effects. It feels like two completely different drugs put together, is what I'm trying to say.
Edit:
This is indeed true, and I like it whereas you seem to dislike it. The upside of FPM is that it seems to be possible to increase the dosage without notably increasing the negative side-effects. I don't recommend anyone to start with, or move to, any bigger than treshold- to low doses, though! Everyone reacts differently
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This is indeed concerning. Maybe it's possible to speculate as to what the chemical could be metabolizing into, which seems to be a mild stimulant with a very long half-life? Ziirp also mentioned lipophilicity, though I don't know anything about this or how it works. I understand that THC is lipophilic (I could be wrong, I've just read that it stays around in fat in the body, and when making eatables and the like you need lipids for extraction), yet obviously it's effects still fade very quickly. Basically my knowledge of chemistry doesn't permit me to make any speculation, so that of someone else (with citations if possible) would be appreciated. Off topic but if someone could throw me a link for some good basic reading to start learning more about chemistry as relevant to these discussions, it would be welcome.
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t6apb
Bluelighter
i had my last dose of around 80mg taken orally after snorting throughout the day at 5pm, i took some flubros, smoked some weed and i fell asleep very easily by about 2am.
with EPH this is never the case no matter how many benzos/codeine/weed i take.
this stuff is quality stuff, today i am feeling no comedown other than slight tiredness which is normal after a day sesh.
i think i found my new love with stims afer discovering this.
oh yeah my nose feels fine. after a day of eph use my nose is sore and painful. even tho it burns to sniff, i dont think it causes no way near as much as eph did.
with EPH this is never the case no matter how many benzos/codeine/weed i take.
this stuff is quality stuff, today i am feeling no comedown other than slight tiredness which is normal after a day sesh.
i think i found my new love with stims afer discovering this.
oh yeah my nose feels fine. after a day of eph use my nose is sore and painful. even tho it burns to sniff, i dont think it causes no way near as much as eph did.