2C-I + MDMA, Potentiation and Dosage Recommendations?

[thelearner]

Headed to a rave next weekend to see my current favorite band (The Glitch Mob, woo!)

I'm considering 2C-I + MDMA but am unsure of dosages, risks, concerns, etc. and hoped that those wiser than me could shed some light.

First and foremost, can anyone let me know if there are any potential safety risks of combining these two PEA drugs? I only have two 2C-I experiences, and at the higher dosage (38mg, I'm a hardhead), the experience was energetic, wonderful, euphoric, psychedelic with a body high almost like that of "coming up" on a roll but never quite peaking. I was, however, sweating my ASS off. However, I am generally an extremely sweaty person and was also dancing like a lunatic (on a boat party in San Diego harbor, fuckin' sweet!), and when I went outside into the cool, fresh air, I stopped sweating and became cold relatively quickly.

So, it's difficult to say whether it was just the 2C-I or environment / physical activity. Still, the 2C-I did feel somewhat "stimmy" but not "tweaky." I felt very energized but was able to sit calmly, talk, share, enjoy, etc.

In short, does anyone know about 2C-X compounds' cardiovascular safety profile in combination with MDMA? What about potentiation of neurotoxicity?

Second, from the limited research I've done, people tend to state that when combining 2C-I with MDMA, a fair bit lower dosage than usual is needed for the 2C-I and possibly MDMA. I have rolled about 10 times, so I am comfortable enough with the substance that I feel I can gauge dosage based on feel and will simply start with a single pill and go from there.

Some background to help establish correct dosage:

For 2C-I and psychs (including MDMA) I tend to be quite a hardhead despite the fact that I'm only 165lb (male, 6', high metabolism, very low body fat). With 2C-I, first experience was at 16mg sublingually and got a nice mild body buzz, increased energy, enhanced musical appreciation, and super-super subtle visuals to the point that I wasn't sure they were there.

At 38mg sublingually the evening following, I had the full-blown experience and it was intense (euphoria, gentle melting / morphing of objects, CEV's, transferance of color between objects, superb body high, incredible energy, very interesting head space, etc.) but not too overwhelming despite being out in a "club" type environment with tons of drunk people.

How does the following 2C-I + MDMA dosage plan sound given my natural tolerance? Assuming it's reasonably safe to do so, I am thinking 20mg 2C-I sublingually + 1 MDMA pill orally, at the same time. Would redose with 1-2 more MDMA pills (one at T+2:30, one more at T+4) and MAYBE a 10mg 2C-I booster as needed while evening progresses.

I am PARTICULARLY interested in those with experience taking 2C-X compounds both with and without MDMA and how the addition of the MDMA affected required dosage AND how the 2C-X compound affected the effects of the "roll" and needed MDMA dosage.

Thanks in advance! :D

 

[theotherside]

I wouldn't take them at the same time.......might be a bit too much stimulation. 2c-i is stimulating on its own, and has an incredible body high...might not make the best mixer. I like to take my psych's on the comedown of entactogens.....makes your trip beautiful and smooth.

 

[thelearner]

Also, nausea probably isn't a concern as I get none with either MDMA or 2C-I.

 

[thelearner]

I wouldn't take them at the same time.......might be a bit too much stimulation. 2c-i is stimulating on its own, and has an incredible body high...might not make the best mixer. I like to take my psych's on the comedown of entactogens.....makes your trip beautiful and smooth.

REALLY? If you search for the combo there are very limited experiences posted but every single one is listed as being absolutely phenomenal.

Honestly, my first thought when I was peaking on the 2C-I was how fantastic it would go with MDMA. The body highs combined would just be otherworldly, and honestly I'm not too concerned about being overstimulated (provided it's safe) as I'll be in a rave environment seeing my favorite band. Even sober, I'm the crazy bastard dancing like a complete lunatic dead front and center, rallying the crowd. So being pumped, well, I'm cool with that. :D

I'm most concerned with safety... and also not going too far with the dosage and being so enveloped in lush euphoria, psychedelic visuals, and orgasmic body high that I'm incapable of dancing with all the lovely ladies.

Maybe I should back the 2C-I dosage to 15mg initially + 10mg booster as needed? I dunno, those who have done both who can shed some light on relative percentage drop required to get similar effects from 2C-I, please chime in!

 

[nopipesdfw]

I love this combo with weed and nitrous, I just stay easy on the MDMA dosage.

I have taken large doses of all four of these combined many times and I would recommend strongly if you like to dance!(I never want to sit down for too long unless I am on huge doses of dissociatives, really!)

 

[DwayneHoover]

There's a thread on combining 2C-I with methylone (bk-MDMA) and everyone is saying "heart arrythmia"... "way way too much stim"... others just saying "NO NO NO... dont even think of trying it, to risky".

I cant imagine substituting MDMA in place of the Methylone would be much different. They are both phenethylamines that can lead to extreme stimulation... so I would say find a nice tryptamine to combine with either one, but both together might well be over-amping.

 

[thelearner]

There's a thread on combining 2C-I with methylone (bk-MDMA) and everyone is saying "heart arrythmia"... "way way too much stim"... others just saying "NO NO NO... dont even think of trying it, to risky".

I cant imagine substituting MDMA in place of the Methylone would be much different. They are both phenethylamines that can lead to extreme stimulation... so I would say find a nice tryptamine to combine with either one, but both together might well be over-amping.

Hrm, this was exactly my concern...do you have a link to the thread? Would love to read it.

I know 2C-I feels somewhat stimulating, but not in a "speedy" way like MDMA, just in an "energetic" way, somewhat similar to LSD. Obviously, that's not very scientific. Does anyone have any data on whether 2C-I is a monamine releaser? If not, how is it stimulating? What risks does this pose? Just trying to establish by what mechanism it is stimulating. Does 2C-I increase heart rate and BP?

For example, I find LSD quite stimulating and invigorating (never checked BP / HR, though), but that seems to be OK to mix with MDMA. Why?

I'm not doubting your advice, just wanting to understand the mechanisms so I can extend the logic to other possible combinations and confirm (as much as possible) this is indeed unsafe.

Also, if the concern is overstimulation, then couldn't this be avoided by moderating doses of each compound? I.E. 1/2 the amount one usually would take for full effects of each?

 

[thelearner]

There's a thread on combining 2C-I with methylone (bk-MDMA) and everyone is saying "heart arrythmia"... "way way too much stim"... others just saying "NO NO NO... dont even think of trying it, to risky".

I cant imagine substituting MDMA in place of the Methylone would be much different. They are both phenethylamines that can lead to extreme stimulation... so I would say find a nice tryptamine to combine with either one, but both together might well be over-amping.

Also, Methylone is a much more potent DA releaser (NE, too?) so would be much more "stimmy" than MDMA, no? Wouldn't MDMA be much safer than Methylone in that regard?

 

[thelearner]

For those interested, some other folks' experiences with this combo:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=6846485
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=426918

 

[DwayneHoover]

Hrm, this was exactly my concern...do you have a link to the thread? Would love to read it.

I know 2C-I feels somewhat stimulating, but not in a "speedy" way like MDMA, just in an "energetic" way, somewhat similar to LSD.

It was in the big-n-dandy bk-mdma (methylone) thread
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=299732&page=40

I dunno, I and others I know find the first couple hours of come-up on 2c-i alot closer to an mdma or amphetamine rush than to LSD... tension, increased heartrate, restlessness, etc... I can deal with it up to 25-30mg but alot of people hate it with a passion. After about 2 hours when its psychedelic plateau begins, this stimmyness tends to evaporate and it gets alot more comfortable, at least for me and others I know. So that MIGHT me a reasonable time to do the MDMA or the Methylone if one was really set on the combo. 2C-I is alot longer lasting than either of those, at least its peak, and I always think combos make most sense by making a "base" of the longer one, then adding a "mountain peak" of the shorter one on top of it after the longer one has leveled off. Still it might end up re-potentiating the stimmyness of the 2c-i or something.

Recently, I did some 2c-i (at a slightly lower than normal dose, 18mg) but sublingually for 20mins before swollowing, and at that time I added a small (for me) amount of 1,3,-DMMA (Geranamine, a legal NE releaser used in bodybuilding energy and weightloss complexes), and I felt very overstimulated, but never in a dangerous or painful way. I started doing Nitrous whippets rather furiously for a while, and that did seem to calm things down. Also, the over-uppityness kinda hit right as both drugs were really coming on after I sat down after rushing about the house, feeding the cats, opening a few windows for cool air, showering, up and down stairs looking for comfy clean clothes, etc., and this did seem to synergize/multiply the high pulse rate effect... and after sitting down, and doing whippets, and breathing deeply, slowly and deliberately to ensure I was fully oxygenated, everything calmed down and I felt pretty awesome after about 20-30 minutes.

So it seems these things CAN cross-amplify each other, even physical activity... so whatever you do, be MODERATE in dosage... on the low side even... give the different drugs time to absorb and even out between them, and try to be calm and not do a bunch of rushing about right when they are coming on like I stupidly did.

Which implies I think these sorts of combos would probably be possibly dangerous if you were out on the town or especially at a rave or dance club where alot of heartbeat-raising exertion is normally pretty unavoidable.

OK, enough ranting.

 

[thelearner]

It was in the big-n-dandy bk-mdma (methylone) thread
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=299732&page=40

I dunno, I and others I know find the first couple hours of come-up on 2c-i alot closer to an mdma or amphetamine rush than to LSD... tension, increased heartrate, restlessness, etc... I can deal with it up to 25-30mg but alot of people hate it with a passion. After about 2 hours when its psychedelic plateau begins, this stimmyness tends to evaporate and it gets alot more comfortable, at least for me and others I know. So that MIGHT me a reasonable time to do the MDMA or the Methylone if one was really set on the combo. 2C-I is alot longer lasting than either of those, at least its peak, and I always think combos make most sense by making a "base" of the longer one, then adding a "mountain peak" of the shorter one on top of it after the longer one has leveled off. Still it might end up re-potentiating the stimmyness of the 2c-i or something.

Recently, I did some 2c-i (at a slightly lower than normal dose, 18mg) but sublingually for 20mins before swollowing, and at that time I added a small (for me) amount of 1,3,-DMMA (Geranamine, a legal NE releaser used in bodybuilding energy and weightloss complexes), and I felt very overstimulated, but never in a dangerous or painful way. I started doing Nitrous whippets rather furiously for a while, and that did seem to calm things down. Also, the over-uppityness kinda hit right as both drugs were really coming on after I sat down after rushing about the house, feeding the cats, opening a few windows for cool air, showering, up and down stairs looking for comfy clean clothes, etc., and this did seem to synergize/multiply the high pulse rate effect... and after sitting down, and doing whippets, and breathing deeply, slowly and deliberately to ensure I was fully oxygenated, everything calmed down and I felt pretty awesome after about 20-30 minutes.

So it seems these things CAN cross-amplify each other, even physical activity... so whatever you do, be MODERATE in dosage... on the low side even... give the different drugs time to absorb and even out between them, and try to be calm and not do a bunch of rushing about right when they are coming on like I stupidly did.

Which implies I think these sorts of combos would probably be possibly dangerous if you were out on the town or especially at a rave or dance club where alot of heartbeat-raising exertion is normally pretty unavoidable.

OK, enough ranting.

Hey, you're not ranting. I'd rather you bring this shit up and give me (and others reading this thread) a heads up and possibly prevent a heart attack, panic attack, etc. I appreciate the thoughtful reply and advice. Any thoughtful, helpful reply oriented towards harm reduction is surely appreciated around these parts.

And now that you mention it, the 2C-I did seem to build, build, build with strong energy and a powerful body high much like MDMA for the first hour and a half, then "release" into a much more relaxed state as the psychedelic experience began.

I think you're right that the best strategy would be to take the 2C-I about 1.5 hours before the MDMA so that the 2C-I build-up is finished with and the MDMA come-up and peak coincides with the psychedelic peak.

I think I'll stick with the original plan of 20mg 2C-I, but push the MDMA to T+1.5hrs and MAYBE add 10mg 2C-I at the MDMA peak at T+3hrs if I'm looking to go further down the rabbit hole.

 

[DwayneHoover]

Try and give us a blow-by-blow if and when you try this, bud, let us know what happened! I dunno about adding more 2C-I... may not really do much... that close to the first dose there will probably a short-term tolerance at work... but I bet once you feel the MDMA rush on top of the initial 2C-I you will totally forget about extra 2C-I. I would definitely worry that the extra 2C-I could be too stressful on the heart. Maybe a small Redbull would be sufficient to pump things up just a bit (while also providing some protective Taurine... actually even better would be one of those 5-hour energy bottles that also contains Tyrosine, and amino that helps replenish depleted neurotransmitters, as well as a form of choline [citicholine] that rebuilds depleted Acetylcholine in the brain very effectively as well.

 

[thelearner]

Try and give us a blow-by-blow if and when you try this, bud, let us know what happened! I dunno about adding more 2C-I... may not really do much... that close to the first dose there will probably a short-term tolerance at work... but I bet once you feel the MDMA rush on top of the initial 2C-I you will totally forget about extra 2C-I. I would definitely worry that the extra 2C-I could be too stressful on the heart. Maybe a small Redbull would be sufficient to pump things up just a bit (while also providing some protective Taurine... actually even better would be one of those 5-hour energy bottles that also contains Tyrosine, and amino that helps replenish depleted neurotransmitters, as well as a form of choline [citicholine] that rebuilds depleted Acetylcholine in the brain very effectively as well.

Expect a full trip report in this very thread.

You may be right about the 10mg booster, but it may also be that MAO-B is so saturated with MDMA metabolites by that point it still has some kick. And if I don't want it, well, one of my friends certainly will. :D

Thanks for your input about supplements / drinks. Pre-trip supplementation will be extensive, including 6g sodium ascorbate (Vitamin C), NAC (1200mg), ALA, Choline, Omega-3, etc. Basically, I'll have absurd levels of antioxidants to try and protect against neurotoxicity of the MDMA.

However, I'm probably gonna avoid the Red Bull / 5hr Energy / Tyrosine as it aids in dopamine production, and increased dopamine levels and resulting breakdown = increased neurotoxicity from MDMA. Caffeine also increases body temp, increasing neurotoxicity as well, and thus should be avoided. I'm gonna stick with uncaffeinated drinks for energy (and you should too when rolling!) Fortunately, there should be no lack of energy given the combo!

We will see how it goes and what doses, etc. are needed. I'm VERY curious to see what happens with my MDMA dosages as I tend to be one HELL of a hardhead with MDMA, requiring 5 pills (!) my very first MDMA experience / rave to maintain the high for 6 hours with others having been floored on 3. So I would VERY much like to see the 2C-I synergize with the MDMA such that the dosage is cut in half to feel full euphoric, empathic, entactogenic effects whilst simultaneously enjoying beautiful visuals and headspace of 2C-I.

Can't wait! Gonna be one hell of a weekend.

 

[DwayneHoover]

Hmmm... <stroking very curtly trimmed goatee>

Should be verrrrry interestink experiment, Dr. Ze Learner! Ve eagerly avait your slides und diagrams at ze upcomink zmpozium! (apologies to any Deutche members! I involunatrily slipped into my best bad Monty-Python-esque offensive German accent parody/impression... sorry!)

 

[thelearner]

"As you can see in Exhibit A, at approximately T+2.5hrs subject began to simultaneously trip BALLZ and roll FACE as evidenced in this photograph by his unique expression of pre-orgasmic pleasure combined with a subtle vacuousness at the corners of the eyes, indicating subject has left the planet."

 

[thelearner]

Also, regarding cardiovascular safety of the combo, this may not make any difference, but I happen to be in exceptional shape, exercising about 7x per week with a combination of strength training, yoga, and 2+ hr surf sessions, not to mention my tendency to dance like an absolutely fucking LUNATIC for hours at a time whenever I go out, usually at least once per week. I get so much exercise it borders on the absurd, not to mention due to other (well managed) health issues my diet is very, very clean (basically lean proteins, leafy green veggies, a bit of fruit, and a bit of chocolate to stay sane). Last time I had a physical my doc said I probably had the best cholesterol of anyone within a 10 mile radius. I'm 27.

So, I'm very healthy overall and my heart is QUITE used to being hammered at a very high rate for very long periods. I suppose the main thing to worry about would be increased blood pressure, not a high heart rate, right?

Can anyone smarter than me confirm whether existing fitness / health level has an impact on the safety of a combo such as this prone to cardiovascular stimulation?

 

[thelearner]

And one last question, even though I can probably guess the answers that will be given, simply because, hey, 50 posts! YEEEEHAW! :D

Have some Selegeline / Deprenyl arriving tomorrow. Am considering 2.5mg dose 2hrs before and significantly reducing MDMA & 2C-I consumption for the evening (1-2 pills max, 5mg 2C-I total).

Reasons being:

1) Deprenyl has been shown to almost completely prevent neurotoxicity in rats.
2) Due to inhibition of MAO-B and consequent reduced breakdown of dopamine (the same mechanism by which neuroprotective effects are achieved), MDMA and 2C-I will both be potentiated and duration extended.

Would maintain high dose anti-oxidant regimen described above as well. Thoughts? I have found at least one trip report of a user on a regular Deprenyl regimen who experimented with this combination without issue (2-3 pills + 8mg 2C-I), but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I am obviously concerned about possible speed psychosis, even higher risk of cardiac events, etc.

But at the same time, if proven to be a safe combo without large effect on HR / BP it could be the perfect grouping for raves as it should in theory potentiate the potency and extend duration of drugs in question while protecting the brain, reducing quantity of drugs consumed (and toxic metabolites, especially those from MDMA), and reduce cost as well.

I am thinking, however, that the experimentation is probably best left for home when I am in a controlled environment, relaxed, can measure BP / HR, and get the fuck to the hospital should something go really awry.

Still, seems like a combination with enormous potential if executed properly.

 

[captain codshit]

2c-b and MDMA combo is amazing, but 2c-i I really don't see the need for the MDMA. As said above 2c-i on it's own is already stimulating and for me gives some MDxx effects. You probably could do both at once but I'd say stick to maybe 15mgs of 2c-i then do 120mgs MDMA a few hours later.

MDMA does not have the shitty stimulant sketchy feeling methylone has. I cant see how people would see them as similar. Methylone is a piss poor imitation drug with 1 hour of mediocre high for 5 hours feeling sketchy.

 

[ebola?]

Have some Selegeline / Deprenyl arriving tomorrow. Am considering 2.5mg dose 2hrs before and significantly reducing MDMA & 2C-I consumption for the evening (1-2 pills max, 5mg 2C-I total).

This combo is unsafe. People who have combined inhibition of maob with 2c-series psychedelics report profound but unpredictable potentiation. Some found apparent 4x potentiation of the physiological side-effects, coupled with roughly no potentiation of desirable effects.

Furthermore, the degree of potentiation is idiosyncratic and unpredictable. For any combination with a stimulant or entactogen involved, you need to slowly titrate upward, to see how you respond personally.

I wrote an FAQ on this; it's in the wiki section.

ebola

 

[thelearner]

2c-b and MDMA combo is amazing, but 2c-i I really don't see the need for the MDMA. As said above 2c-i on it's own is already stimulating and for me gives some MDxx effects. You probably could do both at once but I'd say stick to maybe 15mgs of 2c-i then do 120mgs MDMA a few hours later.

MDMA does not have the shitty stimulant sketchy feeling methylone has. I cant see how people would see them as similar. Methylone is a piss poor imitation drug with 1 hour of mediocre high for 5 hours feeling sketchy.

Alas, 2C-B is exceptionally hard to come by, at least with my connections.

2C-I I do agree has some of the same sort of body high effects as MDMA, empathy, etc. but lacks some of the MDMA "magic" in that department, hence the desire to supplement with the MDMA. I agree that keeping the dosage on the 2C-I low (for my tolerance levels) and adding the MDMA in is the way to go.

No interest in Methylone. I'd rather take the real thing.