25i-NBOMe (nbombs) - possible dangers?

[sudo]

Sorry if this thread exists. I tried searching but most posts I found were half-baked experience reports.

There have been some negative reports appearing off people having very negative experiences on 25i-NBOMe but I'm struggling to find anything more than anecdotal evidence.


Is there any known scientific reasoning a normal dose would hospitalise/kill someone?

I assume millions of these things have been sold so my best guess at the moment would be some sort of enzyme deficiency? That is to say, I still believe its possible nbombs simply come with the risks of any psychedelic (and people being silly or simply having a bad reaction.)

BAD EXPERIENCES
#1 500ug - No SSRI medication - onion URL removed

25I-NBOMe is easily the most toxic thing I've ever ingested.
Had the absolute worst trip of my life because of it.
500ug's of blotter and had some type of reaction, overdosed, tripped harder than anything I've ever experienced, then completely lost consciousness.
What was soon followed by a series of grand mal seizures, landing me in the hospital.
For some reason my body just plain rejects it. It's like vile poison coursing thorough my veins.
I believe to my body it's strongly hepatoxic, as well as cardiotoxic.
It's nasty, nasty stuff.
The entire experience and side effects were some of the worst I've experienced.
Almost too many to list.

Plus it was 50 cents that ended up almost costing me both my life and $3k in medical bills.
The risk to reward ratio is screwed up here.
It's also the one and only psychedelic or drug in general to ever give me a seizure, and I have done plenty.
That alone says something.

Thought that I would never recover from something like this.
But it was possible because of SR and it's been a triumphant return to glory.
*Rise and Return of [Retracted]*
onion URL removed
Please, be extremely careful with this stuff.
For harm reduction sake this is some of the worst stuff you can touch.
You play with fire, and you get burnt.
This substance takes it to the next level.
Even if this keeps one person from having to go through what I experienced it will be well worth posting this.

Best Regards,
[Retracted]

#2 - This is coming from a popular vendor on Silk Road
onion URL removed

When we first started our business we had no idea what would happen – 25i may well have turned out to be a fantastic chemical with a great safety profile. I was enthusiastic and keen to share with everyone.

Whether we admit it or not, today NBOMe's are causing harm to people
At first the reports of negative effects coming back were from unknown contributors but there are a growing number of respected board members denouncing this substance, both here and on Bluelight.

NBOMes are to true LSD what mephedrone was to MDMA - a cheap, untested replacement which, with time, has produced a plethora of negative reports and hospitalisations.
NBOMes are occasionally causing seizures, and (I speculate) regularly causing psychological damage.

I can justify to myself over and over that people should have the freedom to do as they please, and that we are not responsible for what happens once it leaves our hands, but the truth is that 90% of people out there don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision.
I do have this knowledge and I would choose not to take these substances any more.

I can no longer supply this chemical and be happy, knowing that despite our best efforts, it can and will end up in the hands of those who are likely to use it irresponsibly - and even those who do, may have unpredictable reactions to it with lasting effects.

We have made the decision to destroy everything and move on with our lives.

#3 - Poster on Reddit - Friend died on two tabs of 'acid' - unknown what was really on the tabs
http://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/1kyqnx/one_of_my_best_friends_who_was_also_a_redditor/


#4 - Poster on Reddit - 2mg NBOMe - Recently quit Paxil (SSRI Interaction)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/1kr4i1/

There have been 5 deaths on Erowid related to 25i-NBOMe
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ci_nbome/2ci_nbome_death.shtml
#1 - Sold as bath salts, unknown dose, insufflated
#2 - 1 drop sold as NBOMe killed
#3 - Sold in pill form, NBOMe has no oral bio-availbility. Most likely 2C-I?
#4 - Sold as mushroom extract, again it was consumed. Not NBOMe [Bluelight thread discussing the event. Speculation that it was BrDFLY]
#5 - Same source as the guy that died thinking it was mushroom extract, again not likely NBOMe
(The only one that concerns me out of these 5 deaths and think can actually be contributed to a normal dose of NBOMe is #2)

Now #3/4 (From the original 4 experience reports - not erowid) Don't really concern me. There is explanations from them. So there is basically one guy saying they're bad and a big vendor. I suppose I'll need to try and get in touch with him.

 

[ebola?]

Is there any known scientific reasoning a normal dose would hospitalise someone?

It could actually just be that potent, full agonism selective for 5ht2a is enough to cause problematic vasoconstriction. Couple this with people taking high doses (sometimes cavalierly, as is done with 'ten strips' of LSD), and thing could go quite poorly. This is, of course, taking a lot of anecdotes at face value. I'm unaware of any relevant studies having been conducted.

ebola

 

[sudo]

There have been negative reports on as low as 500ug. 3mg+ has produced seizures but I believe in that report there was an interaction with an SSRI

 

[xstayfadedx]

I took a 1000ug... so did my friends... and all I noticed that didn't feel good was we got really hot and were sweating. An hour later we took another tab for a total of 2000ug, but didn't get overheated again... well not anymore than we were. The sweating disappeared after a bit though. (Could of been the weather as well but it deff made us still overheat somewhat as well).

 

[Lazaraus45]

As i understand it ROA plays a big part in it, a lot of negative reports have been from people taking it nasally

 

[sekio]

Also of note: there are documented cases of massive LSD overdose that would have led to death had medical care not been administered promptly (namely, the case in the 70s involving insufflated LSD!). Pts were aspirating vomit, losing consciousness, and behaving erratically.

 

[Psychedelic Jay]

Also of note: there are documented cases of massive LSD overdose that would have led to death had medical care not been administered promptly (namely, the case in the 70s involving insufflated LSD!). Pts were aspirating vomit, losing consciousness, and behaving erratically.

I would blame that on higher bio-availibility...

 

[sudo]

Original post updated with experience reports

 

[sudo]

Update from Vendor who stopped selling NBOMe on SilkRoad

Closing up shop was not a decision we took lightly.
The money from vending was my only source of income, my life in fact.
We were at one point arguably the largest vendor on here (top 1%, 100% positive feedback) This should give you an idea of the volume we produced and the income we gave up. I estimate we distributed over 1,000,000 of these things.

There were two main issues which influenced my decision to stop.

1. It seems that different people have different reactions to this chemical. The odds that you will be the one who reacts badly are tiny, but a party is no longer a party if one person seizes out and dies.

Respected psychedelic users from various forums, notably Bluelight, of which I am a member, the shroomery, and other boards have all expressed their concern over this chemical.
I believe I am a logical person. I believe I think rationally. I know that many reported cases will involve abnormal factors such as high doses, irresponsible use, polydrug use, etc etc.
There are reports of this drug causing seizures and deaths (A few months back, one of our customers sent us a message to say he had experienced a seizure on one tab - no other drugs involved. We brushing it aside and moved along, figuring there must have been some other reason). A moderator on Bluelight took a normal dose of 25-c and performed regular blood pressure checks throughout (dangerously high). This was someone with a highly respected experience and understanding of tryps/phens and a decent understanding of neurochemistry and biology. They stated they wouldn't take it again. I have used the chemical multiple times and never had a bad experience, but I cannot divert my attention from the reports of seizures and deaths that are coming in, and equally importantly, the opinions of highly experienced psychonauts who know their own minds and bodies better than many can ever possibly imagine.


2. The second reason I decided to pull away from this is because of first hand experience of the attitudes of the younger generation towards drugs.
It can't be helped, this is just how they are. I gave a strip of 25i to a kid I am still friends with, who I met at a festival. A couple of weeks later he told me, laughing, 'I sold that research chemical stuff off to someone - just told them it was acid!'. I shook my head and just felt sad (yes I did try and explain why this was wrong but it seemed to go over his head)

This is the problem we face. It doesn't matter if I can convince myself, logically, that each and every user should be responsible for identifying the chemical they are about to ingest, and understand the safety aspects of it and the correct dosage, we at the top are feeding a system where we must expect this sort of thing to happen. Many will disagree with me here - and I fully understand, I was of the former school of thought this time last year.

If a chemical becomes something I would not want to share with a loved one, I would no longer wish to share it with the rest of the population, no matter what profit it saw me. There are safer, well researched, much more rewarding chemicals out there.

The NBOMe thing became all about profit and no longer about the experience. A cheap thrill being passed around the playground, not a drug that will influence a generation. In fact, for a while there, I knew I was profiting mainly because people were bulk buying my stuff, and reselling it as acid. We had messages BEGGING for us to stop printing the chemical name on the back, even offers to pay more if we would do 'one last batch without'. Some customers actually became aggressive when we declined. This was not the crowd I wished to deal to, and not the life I want to lead.

Those of us in the position to know about these chemicals (and with the intelligence to lay sheets) should also be able to feel when something isn't quite right.

In the end, we flushed around 1.5KG of 25i/c down the toilet (that's worth over six figures retail) and decided to move on. I want to contribute to the psychedelic community, not take from it.

EDIT: To the NBOMe vendors. I am NOT judging you by any means. Our decisions were ours alone and reflect OUR opinion of the situation. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view. I do however urge you to label products correctly and ask yourselves, would you be selling so many if the tabs were clearly labelled and could not be passed off as acid - see the LSZ and AL-LAD tabs for examples. Oh, and laying 25i onto Hoffman or any other print associated with LSD is particularly bad.

Peace, everyone. Il be in the office with a changa spliff, reading organic chemistry for dummies and trying to source some ergotamine 8)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 02:39 pm by Tyl3rdurden »

 

[Incunabula]

Also of note: there are documented cases of massive LSD overdose that would have led to death had medical care not been administered promptly (namely, the case in the 70s involving insufflated LSD!). Pts were aspirating vomit, losing consciousness, and behaving erratically.

I totally, absolutely and completely respectfully disagree

LSD has been available for 71 years, since then it's been taken millions of times by hundreds of thousands of users. Besides from mushrooms it's probably the most popular and widespread psychedelic ever.

So how many pharmacological deaths from LSD in those 71 years? that's right, one. And that was that one guy who injected 40 mg by accident. And of cause that'll kill you. If you inject 40 ml of ketchup you'll die aswell. Anything can kill in overdose.

Now, about the NBOMe's, how many death's in 3 years? (it became available in 2010, remember that)

I know that LSD rarely is insufflated or dealed in powder. But people dose it cavalierly in liquid as well, or eat 10 strips without first testing the potency etc etc.

There's plenty of trip reports of people having had bad reactions and getting hospitalized from just a single 500 ug 25I blotter. Likening this to LSD is just wrong in my opinion.

And in regards to those people who snorted LSD powder thinking it was cocaine. They would'n have survived had it been an NBOMe, hospital or not, they would have been dead for sure. Cocaine sized lines of 25I kill with guarantee, but with LSD, apparently not.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_death.shtml

 

[SeenSoFar]

I totally, absolutely and completely respectfully disagree

LSD has been available for 71 years, since then it's been taken millions of times by hundreds of thousands of users. Besides from mushrooms it's probably the most popular and widespread psychedelic ever.

So how many pharmacological deaths from LSD in those 71 years? that's right, one. And that was that one guy who injected 40 mg by accident. And of cause that'll kill you. If you inject 40 ml of ketchup you'll die aswell. Anything can kill in overdose.

Now, about the NBOMe's, how many death's in 3 years? (it became available in 2010, remember that)

I know that LSD rarely is insufflated or dealed in powder. But people dose it cavalierly in liquid as well, or eat 10 strips without first testing the potency etc etc.

There's plenty of trip reports of people having had bad reactions and getting hospitalized from just a single 500 ug 25I blotter. Likening this to LSD is just wrong in my opinion.

And in regards to those people who snorted LSD powder thinking it was cocaine. They would'n have survived had it been an NBOMe, hospital or not, they would have been dead for sure. Cocaine sized lines of 25I kill with guarantee, but with LSD, apparently not.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_death.shtml

This is not total evidence to the contrary, since you are speaking of 25I-NBOMe, rather than 25C-NBOMe, but I do believe it is relevant and implies the possibility of surviving just such a situation as you are describing. There is a report on Erowid of someone doing a giant line of 25C and surviving with medical intervention:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=98642

So my cousin came across a this substance called2cc NBOMe. I hadno idea what this substance was when he told me about it nor did I know how much to take. So I proceeded to pour out a little more then a pinky length. I snorted this line in the bathroom and it didnt hit me right away I had asked him if he knew anything about it and he said he didnt just that it was some crazy psychedelic he had came across and had yet to try it.
...
About five minutes after he was trying all these things I was going into a full seizure so he got in the car and drove as fast as he could to the hospital aboutfive minute away. He washolding me withone armanddrivingwiththe other hand saying “Please don’t die please don’t die”. Around the last intersection my whole body went limp I had no pulse. He got to the hospital saying my cousins dead my cousins dead. The security asked what was going on and he said an overdose. The security guard told him to stay calm and take any drugs outof myof mypocket. I had about an eighth of marijuana on me. They induced me into a coma and I'm pretty sure the trip was still going on for the four days I was in a coma. I don’t remember any of my trip during the coma except the last part where I had walked up a cloud of stairs guessing it was the famous “stairway to heaven” and I got to the top and waited at this gate. Some kind of being had walked up to it probably the higher power of my understanding and it shook its head and pointed back down. When I got to the bottom there was my cousin. Some words came out of his mouth backwards wrapped around me from the point of me to him was what had seemed to be about 100 yards. Once the word wrapped around me I realized it said DMT not abbreviated. Before it got to him he said 'and that’s why they call it DMT' and snapped. The words went into his snap and I woke up out of the coma seeing all of my family there which I hadn’t seen in months.

That being said, I totally agree with you. I think that people even entertaining the notion that the NBOMe-series possess anything close to the therapeutic index of LSD, or even considering using the same irresponsible, and as you say, cavalier behaviours that have become common practice among LSD users can only end in disaster. The NBOMe compounds have proven themselves to be dangerous and while they may be useful and enjoyable tools in the right circumstances, their use begs extreme caution. The pharmacological reasons for these problems remain unclear, and I will not recount the speculation myself and others have gone through elsewhere, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a danger present. Tread lightly.