2024 US Presidential Election
- Thread starter alasdairm
- Start date
smokeymcpot42088
Bluelighter
- Joined
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might as well at this point. I don't know what he could do to lose his base. Joseph Smith (dumb dumb dumb) still makes me laugh
If you ever have a chance to play the video game Disco Elysium - they explore this phenomena through 'The Moralintern'... a sort of patchwork of center-left and center-right government that doesn't really hold beliefs, just focuses on vague notions of morality while prioritizing consistent 2% growth at all times. Sort of the inverse of revolutionary politics.
Really cool video game that explores trauma, addiction, the supernatural all while being an interesting and fun murder mystery that you are trying to solve. I think a lot of folks on this forum would dig it and would imagine some here have already played it.
TheLoveBandit
Retired Never Was, Coulda been wannabe
I think I overwhelmed with an earlier post, so let me break it down and solicit viewpoints, opinions, facts, and possiblities from anyone and everyone. We are down to just Biden-Trump, two known quantities each with their own track records. Given those are our current options (any chance Biden gets a substitute at the last minute? mehbeh), let's try breaking down the different areas POTUS has influence and see which has a better record, and presumeably has a better possible future for America (and dare I say, the world).
On the world platform, as leader of the free world and greatest nation on earth (debateable, but I'll allow it for now). I'll come back to examine accomplishments and failures for each on the domestic front, but wanted to break this down a bit to evaluate.
Trump:
Biden:
There can be discussion on if the US being in/out of the Paris Agreement is good or bad. Each president took a different approach to it on how it is valued. I'd be interested to hear from anyone in here on that, or any of the points, to determine which did better in a given area (dealing with world powers like China and Russia), how each POTUS has positioned America on that global stage - have we shown power and leadership, brought peace or war, etc. What are your thoughts on the international stage - which has done better? And why?
*The blocking of Russia from SWIFT (the international clearing house for financial transactions) and seizing of their assets when they invaded Ukraine was done with the intent of crippling Russia economically. What time has shown is that not being able to trade in US dollars actually brought up the value of the Russian ruble and aided Russia financially. They were continuing to export their fossil fuels (without US oil in the market to drive down prices), and they were able to do so and demand that their buyers use rubles and/or gold (also heping stabilize the Russian central bank). So, Russia got richer, not more crippled. The secondary effect of taking this action is that now EVERYONE around the world sees the US will seize your assets on whatever determination they may use - this means people don't trust the US nor the dollar like they used to, and the US dollar has lost value on the global markets because nobody will buy our debt. The US weaponized it's currency, something you can't do if you want to remain the global currency (a responsibility with some conflicting requirements). This is why some of you may have heard of the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) developing their own shared currency....this hasn't come to fruition (gonna be hard for China to share anything), but this action HAS weakened the US financially with other countries. We can come back to this with the 'Domestic' discussion of Biden-Trump.
On the world platform, as leader of the free world and greatest nation on earth (debateable, but I'll allow it for now). I'll come back to examine accomplishments and failures for each on the domestic front, but wanted to break this down a bit to evaluate.
Trump:
- Peace in the Middle East during his term
- Jamal Kashoggi executed by Saudi Arabia (a supposed ally)
- Wanted to pull out of Afghanistan but didn't (same as Obama, I suppose because both saw the vacuum it would create which ISIS would fill)
- Abraham accords recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel (promised by presidents before, and never fulfilled)
- China tarriffed to the point of keeping American businesses competitive
- China not speaking of taking Taiwan
- China maintaining the "one country, two systems" of Hong Kong
- N. Korea firing threatening missles over S. Korea
- Russia no invasions of other countries
- Ukraine provided military gear to defend themselves
- NATO put on notice to carry their owed part of expenses or we pull out
- Pulled out of Paris Agreement (entered into in 2015) regarding climate change
- Net exporter of fossil fuels making the US energy independent and profitable
Biden:
- Pulls out of Afghanistan leaving $80B+ of equipment, getting 13 Americans killed, leaves allies and survivors to deal with ISIS take over
- Hamas attack on Israel (seperate thread to elaborate on this one)
- China makes overt actions towards claiming Taiwan
- China aborbs Hong Kong into it's system eliminating the freedoms Hong Kong residents had enjoyed
- I've not heard of any issues with N. Korea
- Russia invades Ukraine, again (did so under Obama with Biden as VP)
- Blocks Russia from SWIFT and seizes assets*
- Continues to fund Ukraine with billions of untraceable dollars while running down US military surplus
- Restarted NATO funding
- Rejoined Paris Agreement
- Cut domestic oil production making us energy dependent upon others, lowered our strategic reserve and has no plan to replenish it
There can be discussion on if the US being in/out of the Paris Agreement is good or bad. Each president took a different approach to it on how it is valued. I'd be interested to hear from anyone in here on that, or any of the points, to determine which did better in a given area (dealing with world powers like China and Russia), how each POTUS has positioned America on that global stage - have we shown power and leadership, brought peace or war, etc. What are your thoughts on the international stage - which has done better? And why?
*The blocking of Russia from SWIFT (the international clearing house for financial transactions) and seizing of their assets when they invaded Ukraine was done with the intent of crippling Russia economically. What time has shown is that not being able to trade in US dollars actually brought up the value of the Russian ruble and aided Russia financially. They were continuing to export their fossil fuels (without US oil in the market to drive down prices), and they were able to do so and demand that their buyers use rubles and/or gold (also heping stabilize the Russian central bank). So, Russia got richer, not more crippled. The secondary effect of taking this action is that now EVERYONE around the world sees the US will seize your assets on whatever determination they may use - this means people don't trust the US nor the dollar like they used to, and the US dollar has lost value on the global markets because nobody will buy our debt. The US weaponized it's currency, something you can't do if you want to remain the global currency (a responsibility with some conflicting requirements). This is why some of you may have heard of the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) developing their own shared currency....this hasn't come to fruition (gonna be hard for China to share anything), but this action HAS weakened the US financially with other countries. We can come back to this with the 'Domestic' discussion of Biden-Trump.
Last edited:
TheLoveBandit
Retired Never Was, Coulda been wannabe
lmao...typical TLB;DR fashion, this 'more focused' approach is twice the size of my 'general' list of questions earlier. I suck.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Saved me tens of hours on reading lol
here's another list!
trump
number of jobs created during term: -2.9M
unemployment rate: 6.3%
gdp: +14%
nasdaq high: 9259
dow high: 31224
number of people with health insurance: -3M
number of criminal indictments: 4 cases, 88 charges
biden
number of jobs created during term: +14M
unemployment rate: 3.7%
gdp: +22%
nasdaq high: 16285
dow high: 39282
number of people with health insurance: +8M
number of criminal indictments: 0 cases, 0 charges
alasdair
trump
number of jobs created during term: -2.9M
unemployment rate: 6.3%
gdp: +14%
nasdaq high: 9259
dow high: 31224
number of people with health insurance: -3M
number of criminal indictments: 4 cases, 88 charges
biden
number of jobs created during term: +14M
unemployment rate: 3.7%
gdp: +22%
nasdaq high: 16285
dow high: 39282
number of people with health insurance: +8M
number of criminal indictments: 0 cases, 0 charges
alasdair
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
To be fair I didn't read either list. But I might compare soon just for information reasons
i remember a while back have a discussion with somebody here who said they thought that trump was a good public speaker. i don't recall who it was and i can't find the discussion. but i thought about that again today when i saw this:
for me, this is a typical example of trump's public speaking. it's pretty clear he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. ive never been able to quote put my finger on a good description of this and somebody, in a comment to that tweet, hit the nail on the head for me. they said "We’re all familiar with his “treading water” tone by now. You hear it any time he tries to speak extemporaneously on a topic that’d challenge an 8th grader."
he doesn't really know the subject in any depth so he just starts repeating himself, saying the same thing in a couple of different ways to make it seems like he's saying more than he is, etc.
it's a great description.
alasdair
for me, this is a typical example of trump's public speaking. it's pretty clear he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. ive never been able to quote put my finger on a good description of this and somebody, in a comment to that tweet, hit the nail on the head for me. they said "We’re all familiar with his “treading water” tone by now. You hear it any time he tries to speak extemporaneously on a topic that’d challenge an 8th grader."
he doesn't really know the subject in any depth so he just starts repeating himself, saying the same thing in a couple of different ways to make it seems like he's saying more than he is, etc.
it's a great description.
alasdair
ions
Mr. Fantasy
don't count on Biden.
I think the huge mypillow advert next to trump really compliments the speech. What a work of art
Burnt Offerings
Bluelight Crew
lol history lessons from professor Trump. “Never fight up hill me boys!” Was Lee an Irish pirate? 
It was probably me who you were thinking of, cuz I think he actually is a good public speaker & he understands “crowd psychology” on an intuitive level. That’s critical cuz a lot of the content of what he says is just nonsense, he’s not exactly winning people over with well reasoned arguments. He’s gotten more addled as he’s gotten older and a lot of times lately he seems to just be phoning it in though. Like in that clip, he looks like he needs another pseudoephedrine or adderall tablet or something
It was probably me who you were thinking of, cuz I think he actually is a good public speaker & he understands “crowd psychology” on an intuitive level. That’s critical cuz a lot of the content of what he says is just nonsense, he’s not exactly winning people over with well reasoned arguments. He’s gotten more addled as he’s gotten older and a lot of times lately he seems to just be phoning it in though. Like in that clip, he looks like he needs another pseudoephedrine or adderall tablet or something
mal3volent
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2011
- Messages
- 40,109
Never fight uphill "Me boys" ! 
TheLoveBandit
Retired Never Was, Coulda been wannabe
As ever, thanks for engaging. I was getting concerned nobody wanted to talk about facts, only feelings. Can I ask, where are these numbers coming from, please? I'd like to understand the basis for comparison. And, specifically, I'd challenge:
Given Biden is claiming job creation for all those unemployed due to Covid later rejoining the work force. Not exactly 'creation' as much as 'return to work'.
Also
We have other threads for these, which I'll join when I can. But, there are a LOT of caveats to this assertion. At face value, yes, he was hit with a ton of charges; in the bigger picture how many have merit, how often is a sitting president charged with things (even if they are found competent enough to stand trial), and how many prosecuters campaigned on the political agenda of 'Get Trump' (something that only a few years ago would be grounds for shaming such a DA candidate out of office).
TheLoveBandit
Retired Never Was, Coulda been wannabe
Thanks for the laugh. Personally, I can't stand to hear Trump speak...it is in part his 'treading water' delivery, same tones and rising and falling amplitutude with a vast emptiness beneath it. To your point, it is more of him wanting to hear his own voice and believe others want to hear it as much as he does - rarely is there substance. Certainly not often factual substance being delivered...more of a wish/want on his part of how he preferred reality to be, tho it isn't. I know many have called him out as a liar on multiple occasions, easiest example is having Mexico pay for the wall - it's what he wanted, or at least what he wanted to sell to the American public, but didn't happen. There's a lot he's said that isn't true - whether to incite, or just inflate his own ego, it was wrong.
But in fairness, how has Biden been on this point - public speaking, knowing wtf is going on? A man who for 2020 refused to debate, and didn't even campaign, just stayed in his basement. Now, for the past few years, he has provided us with so many repeated lies (Amtrak, Traveling with Xi, how many times and places Beau died, etc) I could easily flood this thread with video clips. Hell, his false claim about lowering the deficit has earned him the only ever issued 'Bottomless/Infinite Pinocchio' title. This, of course, is when he is intelligible. Much of the rest of the time he has to follow the cue cards notes in his hand to call on pre-arranged media* for pre-planned questions and follow his perscribed answer. When he goes off script, he goes waaayyyy off script, often mumbling unintelligibly, or ranting at those who question him. Let's not forget how many times he is left shaking hands with nobody, wondering how to get off stage.
They both lie, I think we can all agree on that. But let's put this question of communication to another light - who wouldn't want to see these two debate? And who do you think would 'win'? I put that in quotes, because the vast majority of voters have already made up their mind, they are already dead set against one candidate or the other. But for those that might be swayed by a solid presentation in debate...which candidate would sway those voters to their side?
*Not for this thread, but for the life of me I cannot understand how/why KJP continues to call upon Peter Doocey at press conferences. I mean, there is a need to at least appear fair and willing to take challenging questions, but the guy hammers her every time and she never really recovers. Why repeat that embarassment?
a fair point.
my main point was that one can create a list that favours one candidate over the other pretty easily.
how often do presidents allegedly commit crimes?
he's innocent until proven guilty and the courts will decide.
i don't know but if they ran on a 'get trump' agenda, the voters knew that and chose to elect them so it's, at least in part, the will of the people.
alasdair
JahBeeuS
Bluelight Crew
It's kind of like advertising your services as an attorney. It's one of those things that is just looked down upon within that niche community - or at least used to be. I'm fairly certain a number of them were fairly open about it - Letitia James comes to mind immediately.
TheLoveBandit
Retired Never Was, Coulda been wannabe
But, I'd challenge, a good bit of the 'inflation' is from all the Covid spending by the gov't. Something passed by bi-partisan Congress, so I'm not quite as quick to finger Biden on this. How much does he really control? Tho, he claimed 'Bidenomics' to get credit for it...so, I suppose he can own it.
.
Fiscal policies can take multiple years to realize the impact on the economy, I'm guessing that those numbers are correlative rather than the researchers finding causative links
But, I'd challenge, a good bit of the 'inflation' is from all the Covid spending by the gov't. Something passed by bi-partisan Congress, so I'm not quite as quick to finger Biden on this. How much does he really control? Tho, he claimed 'Bidenomics' to get credit for it...so, I suppose he can own it.
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