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16 months on pods - Tapering completely in 4 weeks (log)

Hey Bo, I thought there was a post on another forum and we kicked it around?? I've been away the last 2 days and it seems to have disappeared. No idea.

First, some explanations for the thoughts I through out. I called you hardcore. ;) Only because you had posted many times, then disappeard, and came back totally addicted again. But I also said kratom is like a band aid when it comes to pods as that's how it's always been for me. Kratom helps a bit for pod wd but for me barely touched it after the fist 2 hours. The poppy board has similar posts too like that. So it was just an opinion I was throwing out based on my inability to get off a bad pod habit with kratom. It has been a few years for me however and when I finally got off the pods I stayed off, and then reached for kratom after being clean. There definately is a kratom wd, but it is much ligher and shorter compared to say pods. But I think with the taper you are doing first with pods will be a key action for this to be successful.

Also, I do think since you are serious, have perserverance, feeling strong, and most of all continued posting, %), you seem to be in a much better head. I think if you keep up the strong will and positiveness you will succeed. So good luck, and I truly send postive vibes your way and know you will succeed on your own. Good work.
 
JackARoe said:
Hey Bo, I thought there was a post on another forum and we kicked it around?? I've been away the last 2 days and it seems to have disappeared. No idea.

First, some explanations for the thoughts I through out. I called you hardcore. ;) Only because you had posted many times, then disappeard, and came back totally addicted again. But I also said kratom is like a band aid when it comes to pods as that's how it's always been for me. Kratom helps a bit for pod wd but for me barely touched it after the fist 2 hours. The poppy board has similar posts too like that. So it was just an opinion I was throwing out based on my inability to get off a bad pod habit with kratom. It has been a few years for me however and when I finally got off the pods I stayed off, and then reached for kratom after being clean. There definately is a kratom wd, but it is much ligher and shorter compared to say pods. But I think with the taper you are doing first with pods will be a key action for this to be successful.

Also, I do think since you are serious, have perserverance, feeling strong, and most of all continued posting, %), you seem to be in a much better head. I think if you keep up the strong will and positiveness you will succeed. So good luck, and I truly send postive vibes your way and know you will succeed on your own. Good work.
Click to expand...

Hey bud how its going?
Thank you for being so patient about that, I really didn't mean to come off like an ass I was just hearing so many different things it was becoming aggravating.

I didn't realize they deleted that thread but I also didn't realize you have to use the word "burn" instead of ingest, and I think I used it so many times the mods were too lazy to edit it all. They did say they were going to edit it though, not delete it. I was told I can't talk about pods there so I really have no reason to be there any longer anyway.

I'm curious though more about your personal experience with pods. And I think I had some minor wds from kratom today! lol. Go figure, I think what actually happened was when I stopped kratom, I got into pods so soon after that thats why I didn't remember any wds. I was actually thinking about it today, and I was remembering the timeline was when I started doing pods again, so it finally makes sense to me, and hopefully you now.
I used kratom for the last 3 nights, and I DID notice just my energy was real low today after not taking it. So it appears I'm def susceptible to wds. I haven't felt this tired at all yet from the taper, so only that can explain why I feel tired right now. How did you finally get off pods?

Did you do a taper or just stop CT? I'm trying to figure out how its possible to still get wds by tapering so low. I've heard so many opposites now its driving me crazy. One guy jumped off clean at 8gms and felt nothing, another woman jumped off at a teaspoon and claimed to still get terrible wds.

There HAS TO BE a science to tapering properly.
Everytime I've tapering off ssris its sucked during the taper, but when I jumped off I usually felt better. And I'm thinking maybe thats because more research has gone into tapering off ssris than pods.

I'm trying to jump off in a way that makes sense to me, so I don't experience bad wds. And my mind tells me "if you stay on a low enough dose for a week theres no way you can get hit with anything that bad afterwards", its just so confusing. Even though everyones different, theres still needs to be a schedule that works for everyone, and I'm thinking maybe theres still such large variances in peoples experiences with tapering because noone uses the same dedicated taper schedule. It SEEMS most people taper within 2-3 weeks, I'm thinking maybe 4 is the sweet spot I really have no idea though. I just wish I knew what I had to do. I'm considering some crazy ideas right now. Because I have about 8 days left. And am on 22 gms today, I was thinking about doing something stupid.

I want to jump down to 10gms tommorow, deal with the wds, and then do a SLOWER taper from that amount. I think its just important to get low and stay low as long as possible, and being I'm limited with time (Jun 16) I think I may do a drastic drop and just kinda "hang" at lower doses for the rest of the taper. I'm just thinking entirely too much about what makes the most sense, and spending more time at a lower dose just makes sense to me.
Thank you for all your help, I really do appreciate it, even if it didn't come off that way at TKF.

-Bo
 
DAY 8 LOG

(I will be repeating some things I said in JackaRoes post just encase some people are only reading the logs)

Ok A LOT of different stuff is going on now. I decided not to take kratom today and was VERY tired, more tired than I've been throughout the entire taper. Its obviously not genuine wds because it was only a few days I took kratom, but it definitely feels like an energy rebound of some sort is going on.

I didn't work out today, but I worked out 4 days this week so I can miss a day.

As of right now, I have very minimal hot flashes going on, no goosebumps just a hot flash like every 10 minutes or so, extremely slow in pace. And besides that I'm just tired .

I'm contemplating a serious change in my taper schedule because I think I need to get lower sooner, and stay there longer. I'm at 20gms, and my original taper was going to be around 2gms avg a day, but I'm thinking I wanna start dropping 4 gms a day till I get down to 8gms. I'm trying to imagine the lowest dose of pods that would get an opiate virgin high, because my idea is to get under that dose, and stay there for 4-5 days.

I couldn't imagine anyone getting high off 5gms, or even 10, but ideally what I want to do is this: (be easier to write out)

My remaining taper looks like this:
20gms, 18.5gms, 15.5gms, 14.0gms, 11.5gms, 10.0gms, 8.0gms, 5.5gms, 3.5gms then OFF.

If you look at the taper *logically, I'm spending A LOT more time at doses that cause aggravating wds vs doses that don't. I'm only under 10gms for **3** days, and thats why I feel like I know that I'm gonna have a hard time stopping completely. I have to be under 5gms for at least 4-5 days, don't ask me how I know but something is telling me very strongly thats my key to success.

So my revised taper I wanna do like this:

20gms, 16gms, 12gms, 8gms, 5gms, 4gms, 3gms, 2gms, 1gm off. I'm thinking obviously my wds are going to get worse if I start dropping 4gms, but its better they get worse now then all at once when I jump off. I'm very much considering starting this new taper, its gonna take serious balls but I feel like I have to do it. I don't wanna push the taper beyond Jun 1st because I want 2weeks to deal with any residual wds before I go on vacation.


My plan B lol was this:

I think Jay made a big mistake not by taking sub, but by taking the 4mgs he did on his first day. Going from his last dose of pods to 4mg sub doesn't make sense to me, I actually think .25mg sub would have held him over from his first day. I don't want to use subs, but I still have to consider it because I'm jumping off Jun 1st no matter what.
And I'm thinking rather than do what jay did which was:

4mg sub, 2mgs, 1mg, .75gm, .5gms, .25gms OFF. Actually he wound up stretching it 4 or 5 days longer but I think this taper would be a big improvement on what he did

.25mg sub, .2mg, .15mg, .1mg, OFF. 4 days of an extremely low dose of sub. And I DO think it will cover any wds if they do surface. Sub is so powerful compared to the dose of pods I'll be down to, so I would def need to take fractions of what jay did. I will measure the sub obviously by making a standardized h2o solution.

But thats where my head is at now. I'm gonna do tommorows dose, than start dropping 4gms after that till I get to 8gms, and than I'm gonna slow down the taper for the last 4 or 5 days. I REALLY think this is gonna be my own little custom taper that actually works.

I'll prob be thrown into less tolerable wds for the next few days, but I think this is the point I need to "suck it up" and go with my gut. I AM very open to other peoples opinions on this.
Its about 12:15 now and I'm tired, so maybe I'll get to bed early for once. I lucked out and realized I had 9 - 50mg seroquel left over from a while ago, so if my sleep starts to take a slam I'll take 25mgs to get to sleep at night. I do hate seroquel though because it makes me a zombie the whole next day, but it does work for sleep so if I need it I'll take it.

Thats basically it I guess. Tapers still going strong, but this is def where things are gonna start getting tricky. Be back tommorow guys! Thank you so much for all the support.
 
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Your jump off plan with sub sounds good, but do you have a way to measure that low of doses of suboxone? I know that's proven to be somewhat tricky for me in the past. It's a lot easier if you have the 2mg pills instead of the 8's when it comes to lower doses.

Maybe you won't even need it though, you'll see when the time comes.
 
nah man im deciding if im gonna take subs to france or not . i prob wont have doctors note but i dont think you need one if its in the bottle
with your name
 
Carl Landrover said:
Your jump off plan with sub sounds good, but do you have a way to measure that low of doses of suboxone? I know that's proven to be somewhat tricky for me in the past. It's a lot easier if you have the 2mg pills instead of the 8's when it comes to lower doses.

Maybe you won't even need it though, you'll see when the time comes.
Click to expand...

I was thinking using 32mls of water for 1 - 8mg sub.

That'll make it .25mg per ml. If I want lower increments I can just use increments under 1ml, like .25ml water for .06mg sub. If I need even smaller I can just use more water, but I think that should work. I have a hobby store right down the road that sells measuring testtubes and droppers so it should be accurate enough.

And yes, hopefully I won't need it.
 
jake99 said:
nah man im deciding if im gonna take subs to france or not . i prob wont have doctors note but i dont think you need one if its in the bottle
with your name
Click to expand...

Yep thats what I was told. As long as its in a bottle I don't think they can take it, as some medicines basically keep people alive.

When are you off to france? I'm leaving for vaca Jun 16th.
 
/\ Sweet, Enjoy! (@Jake)


Quick Morning Update for day 9 -

I FINALLY woke up naturally this morning for the first time in about a year and a half. This is a lot huger than some people will think, as on heavier doses of pods I'd usually need for some reason 10-12 hours of sleep every single night. But I only got about 5 1/2 hours last night and I feel pretty energetic. So who knows wtf is going on lol.

It *may have to do with the fact that last night I had my first bout with a very weak case of RLS. Because I remember waking up and kicking my wall, than rolling around and kicking my bed over and over. But when I woke up I actually wasn't tired so this was a real motivating morning for me.

I feel like my sleep cycle is somewhat stablizing, as I'll be tired tonight and can finally start sleeping at normal hours. I also only had half my dose today, and amazingly its holding me over 100%, so I'm confident that my 4gm drop tommorow isn't gonna be as bad as I thought. If I can take half and still fill "held" I can def start dropping 4gms. I WILL be taking the other half, but I did it more as a test for tommorows big drop.

I'll do an official night update later tonight, but I just wanted to get that out there.
 
Bo - thanks for the update, and I'm sticking around to give whatever advice and suggestions I can, to help see you through this. Just out of curiosity, will you ever find yourself throughout the day imagining how good it will feel to be free from opiates on that vacation? Smelling the air... feeling the sun... hearing the sounds? That has got to be nice imagining that...

I agree with your logic about spending more time at a lower dose. Everyone will agree that it's hard to imagine someone getting high off 5g or less - but this isn't about getting high. This is about getting un-high, right?? :)

Like I've been saying all along, when you are using 50g or 80g a day you can cut down very fast, half of that is still a decent dose! Here is where I disagree with you: you haven't been holding at a dose for any time, right? I think that gets more important the lower you go. The point is to reduce the daily intake enough that the brain starts regulating receptors to get used to less opiates, but without feeling so much discomfort that it's debilitating.

My advice is to, yes drop as much daily as you can, but, know that you might hit a point where the drop off is too much (physically or mentally.) This sounds scary, but it's a good place! For example, if you feel the day you drop off from 12g to 8g isn't enough to `hold` you, you know your mind/body is adjusting as fast as it can. For me 90 minutes after taking my daily dose I know I'm feeling most of the effects. And, if it's not enough, it's ok to use half the amount you dropped off from the previous day. For me, this only happened once - but then I knew I was at the point where I had to slow down the taper. Yeah, it seems retarded to be making a tea of 2 tiny grams, but when you are surfing that edge of holding off major withdrawal...

Ok - before I get too long winded, I also think you should:

First, don't concentrate too much on exact date you want to `drop off.` You say you want to drop off and have 2 weeks to deal with the post-acute withdrawal - I'm saying it's better to use a few more days to taper from the pods. For me, it got to the point where I was at a low dose (1.1g !), and had more pods to continue tapering, but I knew it was time where I could drop off and I wasn't worried about WD. I guess I'm trying to get across that you should be flexible with the timetable, and as long as you are reducing your dose daily, you will get there right about the same time, but with less WD `post drop off.`

Second, forget that suboxone. It's much easier to taper with the large quantity of material there is with pods than with sub. And in my experience after tapering down SO low with pods (like you have planned) that once I touched the sub after having so little opiate in my system, my brain/emotion/addict said: MORE!
The fact is, I didn't need to take the sub. I wasn't feeling anywhere near enough pain to justify putting a high-potency opiate like sub in my system. I *thought* it would aid my getting off shit, when I was just fooling myself. But just the option, and my plan, made me think it was ok.

I really think the choice in your best interest is to taper down, take a few extra days when needed in the taper, and drop off with a determination to only use the suboxone on your vacation *only* in an emergency, and I mean only if without it you wouldn't be able to leave your bedroom. Otherwise, I'm afraid you are just leaving yourself open to getting sucked into suboxone.

At this point I'll say you are almost caught up to where I'm at, you are headed the right way, but I don't want you to follow what I did because I could have done it better. I'll be here to help, and I'm wishing you success far greater than mine, especially with that great vacation you have coming up!
 
I maintained on Pods for the last few years until I got on Subs.

Pods didn't get me high, no matter how much Pod tea I drank.
They just kept me well and made me nod.
And glued me to the couch and I couldn't get anything done, thus the switch to Subs which allow me to feel "normal" and don't make me so damn lazy.
In fact, the subs energize me a bit.

There are dozens of addictive alkaloids in Pods.

If you're going to taper, go slow and take breaks from tapering if needed.

Everyone I know that has set a taper schedule on any opiate has not been able to stick to it, so if you feel shitty, go back up a bit on your Pod dose and stabilize before tapering again.

Pods are an inexpensive way to stay "well", but tolerance grows very quickly.

I would recommend that people avoid them.

As for Kratom, Tramadol, etc...I would also stay away from those drugs as they are also addictive and getting off of them is no fun either.

Measure your ground pods and taper slowly and take breaks from your taper if needed.

Good luck.
 
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LOG Day 10 (morning)

I find it interesting Howard that everyone you have ever known hasn't stuck to their taper. I feel like sticking to mine just so I'm the first lol, but I need to change the taper to get lower a bit quicker.

And Jay (both Jay & Howard) that was really some great advice you guys gave, this thread is LOADED with so much useful information for tapering. I really hope some people look at this log months down the road and it motivates them to get clean realizing how easy the process really is. There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

Today was the BIGG drop. Amazingly however when I woke up this morning I didn't feel that drive to gulp down my tea as quick as possible. I oddly don't even really feel like I'm in wds and its been 27 hours since my last dose (woke up earlier yesterday). I'm sipping my 15.5gms right now, yesterday I had 20gms flat. So I'm thinking I can handle this fairly easily, I'm wondering why I can't even feel wds right now as I JUST started sipping the tea. So this must be a really good sign.
Jay you are right about the holding thing, I think holding at a dose is prob the single most important way you can avoid relapsing, taking your time and being patient about everything.
The only problem is I actually feel like holding at a dose would drive me to relapse quicker than dropping down quicker. These drops are very much a source of mental masturbation and pride for me, they keep me plowing through the taper with a smile on my face. So I wonder what its gonna be like when I'm off and can't drop anymore lol, I'll prob get depressed knowing I can't drop any lower.. like "what to do with myself now?"

Oh and Jay that little line about the feeling the air, seeing the sun and all that sensory detail.
THAT has also been a source of strength I can't describe. I want people reading this to understand I obviously can't make mention of every single little detail I notice changing in my life, but that 1 sentence Jay wrote is tied to something much deeper and more profound thats been happening lately (in the physical structure of my brain as weird as it sounds).

You know how you hear your favorite song (I think when you're severely addicted to opiates your body can't respond this way because its actually endorphins causing it) and you get goosebumps on your arm, then this weird wave of warmth travels through your head and your overcome with excitement and energy? Its hard to describe but this has been happening to me SO FUCKING MUCH over the last week and I never mentioned it. I guess its what you call a "natural high" haven't felt one of those for a while.

Little things that I normally wouldn't care about, are giving me those motivational goosebumps and headrush, like I'm hearing my favorite song over and over and over and its not even music I really like. It was happening nearly all day yesterday. The second I got in my car and turned the radio on its like BAM!!! EMOTIONS! I can just feel the voice of the singer in my brain its so weird. Emotions feel so good right now I can't explain it. Music has always been a source of pleasure for me, as I own my own studio and have been producing trance for 7 years (still unsigned but I plan on sending out to labels late next year). But I can't remember the last time I actually heard a track and got goosebumps and a headrush, even when I was clean before I was on lexapro, as I think that numbed me out a lot to life.

So tommorow the drop is 11.5, then after that 8gms, and then we will put the brakes on this taper for the last 4-5 days. Still on schedule, everythings going pretty peachy so far. I'm watching my parents dogs for 3 days so my sleep is gonna take a big hit as it did last night. I'm not even sure I slept 3 hours because they bark in the middle of the fucking night for every noise that comes through our window, but if I shut the window I can't sleep as I always usually have a window cracked at night for fresh air (even during the winter I do it cause I'm weird like that, I need it to be as cold as possible when I sleep at night).
Besides that I can't complain about much else. I will be back later tonight to update how my day went. Thinking about working out but just not sure if I have enough energy. I still should try though. And once again I want to thank not only the members who've been personally helping me out but the bluelight forums in general, I couldn't imagine getting clean w/out this log and you people so you're as much to thank as a rehab. I'm basically getting my life back and thats something I value like nothing else, so THANK YOU. I'll bbl!!

-Bo
 
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hey man im gonna taper on subs .not sure best way since i only been clean a few days . did 6 mg then 4 mg then 2 mg today , but still feel crappy . wanna try to do it before my trip next month if i can so i wont have to take subs with me overseas (even though i have them in bottle with my name on it , im still paranoid , with no doctors note)
 
jake99 said:
hey buddy. So Subs werent workin great ? i am trying to wean off subs now . im thinkin maybe tram would help to take few days while sub gets out of my system ...............
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NO, DO NOT DO THE TRAMADOL ..... them mother fuckers will break you down..I have had my share of withdraws from them back in 94 when they first came on the scene, not a good look at all, I still take them here and their if my fibro kicks in hard, or if I get that dreaded tooth ache. But I am deathly afraid of the withdraw and the other thing with them is that you really don't know you are on them, until you run out and then you are in for the surprise of your life. Damn what the hell is in them things???
 
^^^
Well it's like an opiate withdrawal combined with antidepressant withdrawals at the same time. Doesn't sound fun to me.

Bojangles said:
Oh and Jay that little line about the feeling the air, seeing the sun and all that sensory detail.
THAT has also been a source of strength I can't describe. I want people reading this to understand I obviously can't make mention of every single little detail I notice changing in my life, but that 1 sentence Jay wrote is tied to something much deeper and more profound thats been happening lately (in the physical structure of my brain as weird as it sounds).

You know how you hear your favorite song (I think when you're severely addicted to opiates your body can't respond this way because its actually endorphins causing it) and you get goosebumps on your arm, then this weird wave of warmth travels through your head and your overcome with excitement and energy? Its hard to describe but this has been happening to me SO FUCKING MUCH over the last week and I never mentioned it. I guess its what you call a "natural high" haven't felt one of those for a while.
Click to expand...

I get this all the time when in withdrawal. It would be refreshing if I didn't have constant chronic nagging pain at the same time (usually the pain is there, or I'm living in fear of it because it's exacerbated by walking). I think this is a large part of the reason why I like to use poppy tea - pain relief. Of course it also worked to numb myself to everything else so it's been helpful but at the same time ridiculously damaging.

I had a very painful night and knowing no other way of dealing with it I got kind of high tonight but it's not the answer. All I'm doing is using up poppies that should be saved for tapering properly before I go cold turkey in one week from now (while I have several days off from work). I wish Advil worked as well as opiates but it doesn't even seem to touch the pain I have :X
 
Keep up the good work guys, you guys are braver than me!

Quasistoned: I wouldn't beat myself up too much over a little slip up in your taper, especially if you're using them for chronic pain. I don't think it's so horrible to use pods to manage chronic pain if that's the only option you have at the moment, but only you know what is best for you and it's a fine line between self medicating a medical condition and getting high in a way that is detrimental to your progress in life.

I'd probably be more eager to get off these things if they didn't help my anxiety/depression issues so much, I'm more comfortable using them than the antidepressants the doctors want to put me on. I can't say I get too high on them anymore unless I double my dose.

Opiates will always be a slippery slope, but I've found pods to be easier to keep at a steady dose than other opiates, therefore I think they're more therapeutic if this is how you use them. Best of luck to all you guys!
 
Quick Morning Update: Day 11

Ok so I had my first annoying run in with wds. Not exactly anxiety producing wds, or unbearable, but to the extent where I had to up my 11gms dose like 2gms today. Those 2 - 4gm drops really got to me as I was up all night with RLS (no sweats or hotflashes amazingly, I think all the cardio I've been doing has stopped it for some reason) just kicking.
I decided to take 25mg of seroquel, which is precribed for RLS and sleep among other things. It didn't work because I went to bed and although it made me tired it wasn't enough to stop the RLS. I could have taken more but that would have ruined my whole day as seroquel tends to turn me into a tired zombie for as long as it stays working in your blood you WILL be tired.

That was around 1am last night. I was in and out of sleep till 6am. And I couldn't bare another second w/out pods in my blood. There was no pain mind you, hot flashes or sweats like I said before, but the RLS by itself just makes it impossible to sleep. It still wasn't any kind of "hard" night, a 1000 times easier than any RLS I got going cold turkey. But I just added 2 more gms to the tea, let it sit for 1/2 hour (the tea was cold at this point so who knows if the 2gms even dissolved in properly) and then I chugged it down and tried to go back to sleep. Although I was to awake to really go back to sleep it DID stop my legs from going crazy which allowed me to chill.

So I'm around 13.5gms (was at 15.5 yesterday so its still a taper). I'm angry but at the same time I don't think I could have realistically expected to drop 8gms in 2 days as low as I already was, but I did get down 6gms in 2 days. Another thing I noticed is by doing this drop, I actually removed 45gms of pods from the end of the taper. I had to take out 3 doses to do this drop, and I could't believe together they were 45gms, it makes sense as 1 dose alone was the 18gms I skipped. So thats that much less poppies my body has to withdraw from at the end.

I reread Jays entire thread yesterday and it scared me. I had seemed to completely miss the fact he started his taper thread *12* days in, and his thread was about the same length as this one, except is was essentially dedicated to the end, when he was on smaller doses. So I'm consider stay on the taper for an extra 3 days. These next few days I'll be able to get a much better idea of what my body can handle, but I'm still on track so thats the most important thing.

This seroquel has my head cloudy as fuck, and I hope I can sleep tonight w/out another round with RLS, as I'm def not taking anything more pods. But if it gets bad I may just take some kratom or immodium and see how that works instead of seroquel for the RLS. I had it the night before last also so it def appears to be happening consistently at this point.

I wanna get back and update again later, and I'll respond to any posts I missed then. Thanks again my little bluelight soldiers!
 
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