12 Step Discussion Mega Thread

[Ds]

the 12step program is a spiritual.. not religious program. it's common to talk about "higher power" in AA, you still hear it in NA, but not as much. I've never made it past step 4.. something always comes up that I end up using over.

 

[EndlessSummer]

my experience indicates that this is inaccurate. 12 Step fellowships are not religious. Yes, there are many who have religion that attend these groups but the fellowships themselves don't care if you belong to any particular theological belief system.

I attend meetings regularly and I hate religion (all religions) and there are many, many just like myself in the rooms.

I do not attend AA (I go to another 12 Step Fellowship) because of the fact that they do say The Lord's Prayer. This group action doesn't align with the Traditions that they are meant to follow. That being said, I know many who attend AA that are of diverse religious beliefs and backgrounds. Many also do not believe in the concept of a supreme deity. The Program works just the same for all of these diverse individuals.

Just my experience...

I'm aware not all are. But yeah the mentioning and appealing to higher powers in ones that do is something I find as a sort of scapegoat for one's actions. I also kind of find it insulting to insinuate one is too weak to overcome addiction on their own.

I'm not anti-spiritual but I am anti-religion as mainstream religious thinking is directly linked to moral absolutism and anti-intellectualism which is eroding freedoms and ruining lives.

 

[Bojangles69]

I feel like I'm the only person there who is doing so out of extrinsic motivation.

Just to give you a different perspective on that I have been to NA at 2 major different times of my life with there being about a 7 year gap between both of those times. But the point is when I came back after roughly 7 years about 90% of the people I knew and remembered were NOT going to meetings anymore. I can't tell you the avg time of length most people spend at NA but I'd tend to think its very short for most people. Then obviously you have that 2% that stays forever. Some revisit again some more than two times but from what I see most people have problems staying in NA long term.

So that would also tell me most peoples motivation for going must not be as intrinsic as you'd think. Or maybe the reality that even if you are internally motivated to go, that even that is not always enough to keep a person "coming back". NA teaches a lot of learned helplessness, which can make people emotionally feel weak. Maybe stable yes, but I believe if you take NA serious, you are always going to adopt a certain component of weakness along with it. Who the hell is anyone to tell me over and over everyday I go somewhere that I'm "powerless" oversomething. So with motivations in life there are always your antimotivations too. And who can really say which one is more important in terms of getting something done?

 

[iNFRiNGE]

I am a very logical thinker and tend to look at everything from a scientific angle. This, of course, caused me to struggle a lot with the word "God". Luckily for me the 12 step treatment centre I went to was run by an atheist, and we had a workshop on "The atheists guide to the steps". I do not see myself as an atheist, more an agnostic, but this workship helped to smash my false belief that it was a religious program, the final excuse I had.

You don't have to be religious to work the 12 steps outlined in the various fellowships. Here are the converted 12 steps, and I will ask if I can upload the whole powerpoint presentation:

12 Steps (minus God)

1. We admitted we had a problem, that our lives were a mess
2. We realised we needed/could get help
3. We asked for help
4. We wrote a detailed description of ourselves, both positive and negative
5. We told someone else what we were like
6. We recognised personality traits that caused us pain
7. We asked other people how they changed
8. We made a list of people we had harmed
9. We made amends to these people always remembering to look after them and ourselves
10. We continued to look at our behaviour
11. We looked at ways we could improve our relationships with people, places, etc
12. We woke up, tried to help others and did our best

Hope this may potentially help someone.

Really? 8(

No disrespect to you since you already stated you are not an atheist, but leave it to an atheist to completely bastardize something and not having the slightest idea of WTF they are talking about "once again".

I am NOT a big book thumper by any means however I too like to "over think" things. Had you seriously jumped head first into the program and got a sponsor with some time under their belt, you would have been able to share your "false beliefs" with your sponsor who would have easily gotten you over this hump with 5 minutes of education that you would be proud of today. I guarantee that! You as well as many others go through the same false beliefs and use that excuse to justify your failures. Here's is what I would tell you if you told me what is quoted above.

oliphill, I'm sorry that you were so mislead and the mere fact that the word "God" is the excuse you used that could have cost you your life is scary. AA is NOT a religious group at all, in fact Bill Wilson himself also had struggled with the existence of God. It wasn't until his friend got sober in the oxford group and told Bill that he had gotten "religion". Bill was devastated because of his issues with the "God" factor. But after talking about this with his friend Bill quoted the following regarding their conversation. "My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, 'Why don't you choose your own conception of God?' That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last." he then speaks of his personal experience and why the term God is still in the Big Book.

Bill was in the hospital after a drinking binge and was recovering from a treatment known as the Belladonna Cure, which causes hallucinations. "It was while undergoing this treatment that Wilson experienced his "Hot Flash" spiritual conversion. While lying in bed depressed and despairing, Wilson cried out: "I'll do anything! Anything at all! If there be a God, let Him show Himself!" He then had the sensation of a bright light, a feeling of ecstasy, and a new serenity. Wilson described his experience to Dr. Silkworth, who told him not to discount it"

Originally there were only 6 steps

1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol.
2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.
3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence.
4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking.
5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward in money or prestige.
6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice these precepts.

Wilson and Smith sought to develop a simple program to help even the worst alcoholics, along with a more successful approach that empathized with alcoholics yet convinced them of their hopelessness and powerlessness. They believed active alcoholics were in a state of insanity rather than a state of sin, an idea they developed independently of the Oxford Group.

But before writing the book Bill thought it should be broken down more.

He wrote the Twelve Steps one night while lying in bed, which he felt was the best place to think. He prayed for guidance prior to writing, and in reviewing what he had written and numbering the new steps, he found they added up to twelve. He then thought of the Twelve Apostles and became convinced that the program should have twelve steps. With contributions from other group members, including atheists who reined in religious content (such as Oxford material) that could later result in controversy, by fall 1938 Wilson expanded the six steps into the final version of the Twelve Steps, which are detailed in Chapter Five of the Big Book, called "How It Works."

The first edition was published in 1939 and has been updated only 4 times since then however the first 164 pages remain
unchanged. the remaining pages are stories that have been added or updated over the 4 revisions.

Why have the first 164 pages never or "slightly" changed since 1939? BECAUSE IT WORKS THAT'S WHY!

As addicts and alcoholics we tend to over analyze shit. While in the middle of our disease I've seen guys pray to God when the cops pull up behind them, or steal from their children or family members. Men and Women have sucked dick for hits of crack.

But when they get a little sobriety in them all of a sudden, their "beliefs" start making their decisions and many have died because of that.

It's a shame......


My Quote of The Day:

FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE PLEASE TAKE THE COTTON OUT OF YOUR EARS AND STICK IT IN YOUR MOUTH, IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY

 

[dhcdavid]

NA/AA "Higher Power" Difficulty

Ive attended my last NA meeting: not because I've become clean (quite the opposite ) but because I can't stand to hear any more bullshit about god and higher power.

It's mainly the hippocrisy surrounding th ewhole concept that makes me what to be sick: everyone vows that as addicts we can accept God/ our higher power in the best way we understand him but inr eality we all seems to be subtley pressured to accept him as some old bloke in the sky who we can just turn all our problems over to, who'll make us clean and essentially be an agent for change which is diametrically opposed to alll the other 99% of dogma (WHICH IS WHAT IT FUCKING IS) which is thrust upon the shoulders of the addict who walks into his/her first NA meeting.

I thought assuming complete responsibility for what a fuck-up you are when the drugs are removed was one of the central tenets of NA? And how can you do that if you just turn all your shit over to God, pray for him to cleanse you off your faults/sins and then move on?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!

 

[Dave]

That's my main beef with their methodology as well. The system works for many, but it is also viewed by many as having an overly-strong christian (or at least religionist) agenda, despite the relatively recent Higher Power circumlocution. In the end, it removes any credit for work done from the patient themselves, and promotes subjugation.

If it works, great, but if it doesn't, then don't use them. There is no such thing as a panacea, especially for something as complex and varied as addiction.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to keep a civil tone. Critiques of treatment methods are by nature very touchy points, but the discussion of such can be valuable. While it is okay to disagree with anyone and to voice said disagreement, if it is not done civilly then posts are going to get edited and/or the thread removed post haste. This applies to everyone, OP included. Period.

Thanks.

 

[yteek]

I think a higher power is a nice idea, having a faith involved is definitely a good thing for some. Though faith isn't for everyone, I don't like that the higher power specifically is a "him".... I've seen people use the universe around them as their higher power but the "him" seems to be a sole reference to God.

 

[villian]

different strokes for different folks

the key is to find what works for you

 

[Missykins]

Ive attended my last NA meeting: not because I've become clean (quite the opposite ) but because I can't stand to hear any more bullshit about god and higher power.

It's mainly the hippocrisy surrounding th ewhole concept that makes me what to be sick: everyone vows that as addicts we can accept God/ our higher power in the best way we understand him but inr eality we all seems to be subtley pressured to accept him as some old bloke in the sky who we can just turn all our problems over to, who'll make us clean and essentially be an agent for change which is diametrically opposed to alll the other 99% of dogma (WHICH IS WHAT IT FUCKING IS) which is thrust upon the shoulders of the addict who walks into his/her first NA meeting.

I thought assuming complete responsibility for what a fuck-up you are when the drugs are removed was one of the central tenets of NA? And how can you do that if you just turn all your shit over to God, pray for him to cleanse you off your faults/sins and then move on?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!

With all due respect, I'm having difficulty following you. Could you restate, perhaps with less profanity and some
punctuation and grammar?

 

[Dave]

Ad hominem.

He's saying that he doesn't agree with the higher power proviso, and as it is a mandatory part of the program he is soured on the program itself. From my understanding, different groups will place different emphasis on the religious aspect, but it is one of the first steps that you need to take, and as such is fundamental. And therefore also at complete odds with a naturalistic world view.

 

[OverDone]

david, it sounds like the concept is being blurred at one or many of the meetings you are going to.

originally I took issue with the Higher Power/God concept when I first attended meetings. This is because I lacked a willingness to really listen to what was truly meant by these terms.

A power greater than myself (and there are many such powers) is simple. Two individuals are greater than one. The group, as presented in the form of a 12 Step meeting, is significantly greater than I am and I gain much from the power of the group. Some examples are: the opportunity to practice patience, tolerance, empathy, willingness, courage, open-mindedness, service to others etc/ experience and practical suggestions from those who have been through what I am currently going through/ the realization that I'm not alone (or unique) in my struggles/ opportunity to break out of my tendencies to isolate.

I know too many muslims, jewish, agnostic, atheists and pagans in the program to shallowly state that NA is a christian organization. Its Steps were adopted from AA in 1953 and it was a slow process to break away from the christian based prayers that AA utilizes. NA is very protective of an individual's right to find their own understanding of their own higher power. Anyone who states otherwise needs to read up on what the program actually says about this:

We come from various walks of life and experience, so it is natural that we bring with us differing concepts of spirituality. In NA, no one is forced to believe any set ideas. Each one of us can believe in anything in which we want to believe. This is a spiritual program, not a religion. Individually, we cultivate our own beliefs about a Power
greater than we are. No matter what we understand this Power to be, help is available to us all.

Step Two, pp 15 'It Works, How and Why'​

There are many more examples clearly spelled out that specify that people should believe in what they believe in and not necessarily that which others do. (I don't have the time [or energy] to dig up these quotes that are repeated ad-nauseaum [for good reason] in NA literature)

I thought assuming complete responsibility for what a fuck-up you are when the drugs are removed was one of the central tenets of NA?

Where did you hear this from? We do need to accept responsibility for our actions but who said we are 'fuck-ups'? Anyone who can put down drugs and live life (for good or bad) without that substance that has been such a huge factor in their lives sounds more courageous than a 'fuck-up'.

Its about looking at the exact nature of our ideas, attitudes and behaviors. That isn't easy (or pretty) but it helps us grow and become aware of patterns that just aren't healthy for us.

It sounds like you are holding your own counsel in regards to what you think NA is. Have you tried getting with an experienced member in the form of a sponsor to get a different perspective that would balance the incorrect assumptions you have arrived at? Personally, when I close my mind and think only what I want to think, I end up facing a rough road. Its good to ask questions and get others' opinions and perspectives.

Your description of the NA program certainly doesn't sound like Narcotics Anonymous at all. You could remedy this and get a more accurate perception by attending more meetings in different locations, getting a sponsor, asking questions, reading what NA is as opposed to what you have arrived at on your own and socializing before and after the meetings.

Its a lot of work and people complicate the shit out of it. We're more similar than different but many look for ways to disqualify themselves from getting better because of the common fear and discomfort of change.

I'm no guru and I am no representative of NA. I'm just some dude who is a member and who has found the program to be extremely effective in assisting me in finding a life worth living. It isn't easy and it doesn't come without pain but, in my experience, it is the best thing that has happened to me (and I have absolutely no association with any religion)

 

[panic in paradise]

Ive attended my last NA meeting: not because I've become clean (quite the opposite ) but because I can't stand to hear any more bullshit about god and higher power.

It's mainly the hippocrisy surrounding th ewhole concept that makes me what to be sick: everyone vows that as addicts we can accept God/ our higher power in the best way we understand him but inr eality we all seems to be subtley pressured to accept him as some old bloke in the sky who we can just turn all our problems over to, who'll make us clean and essentially be an agent for change which is diametrically opposed to alll the other 99% of dogma (WHICH IS WHAT IT FUCKING IS) which is thrust upon the shoulders of the addict who walks into his/her first NA meeting.

I thought assuming complete responsibility for what a fuck-up you are when the drugs are removed was one of the central tenets of NA? And how can you do that if you just turn all your shit over to God, pray for him to cleanse you off your faults/sins and then move on?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!

i have a very strong personal belief system, its mostly about being open.

and i dont know if i am more free then the people in AA...in ways i know that i am, in ways i know that i am not.

thats all that is fair to say about that in here.



the point is, i have my personal faith, almost identical to theirs but it is my own, which is mostly entirely defined as being universal and accepting. we are each reiterating the same thing only in different packages, dont allow yourself to not hear others traveling along the same path, they might lend a partial ear and word...you dont have to do everything they do, no one ever does, but having this common goal, there is a common piece-of-mind...it is a common wealth of knowledge we share. we have earned the awful right.



we are spiritual beings first, physical bodies second.
the micro & macrocosms of you and everything else.
cause and effect
law of fives
refinement

 

[panic in paradise]

"thy will, not mine be done"
St Francis


i heard someone say in an AA meeting, that they felt praying, was in ways asking for "god" to abide that 'cosmic will' in his favor.

i tend to agree.


who the fuck am i to ask for that to be done?!?
lol


and what am i to allow myself to be this being lucky enough to be here experiencing this place, in the capacity i have been given, which is consistently far exceeding of what i know.? drunk?!?

 

[herbavore]

A power greater than myself (and there are many such powers) is simple. Two individuals are greater than one. The group, as presented in the form of a 12 Step meeting, is significantly greater than I am and I gain much from the power of the group. Some examples are: the opportunity to practice patience, tolerance, empathy, willingness, courage, open-mindedness, service to others etc/ experience and practical suggestions from those who have been through what I am currently going through/ the realization that I'm not alone (or unique) in my struggles/ opportunity to break out of my tendencies to isolate.

that is a really good description of how I ended up interpreting it when I attended Nar-anon. I could never quite put it into words but you did, OD!

 

[missmegandelaney]

If anyone is trying to get clean, or if you're thinking about giving it a shot...

I'm sorry if I come across to you as a hypocrite, but I hope you'll listen to me.

I went to rehab when I was sixteen. It was a waste of money. The only thing rehab helped me with was that it introduced to me the Narcotics Anonymous program.

NA isn't going to magically take away your addiction, but it's going to help you as you recover from your addiction. The NA program is based on addicts helping addicts. It doesn't matter what kind of drugs you used.. how often you used them... They don't need to know your connections.

It's not a religious program either. No one forces you to believe in Jesus. They aren't going to shove a bible down your throat.

You can use before meetings...in between meetings...and after. Just sit through them. You'll start hearing shares that you might relate too.

I'm s chronic relapser, I have no days clean as of now. But.
I go to meetings as much as I can.
I work the steps.
I have a sponser.

If it wasn't for NA I would have never gotten the 60 day chip I did.

It really helps me, it'll help you too.

 

[villian]

12 Step Discussion Megathread

 

[missmegandelaney]

oops.
I'm not the brightest bluelighter am i?

 

[blahman8000]

missmegandelaney - Thank you for the helpful post. My drug of choice has always been alcohol, although I've overindulged in narcotics as well. I intend on giving AA another try, after this recent relapse I'm just getting out of.

 

[herbavore]

oops.
I'm not the brightest bluelighter am i?

Hey, I'm not the brightest mod, but after one unsuccessful try I got it merged for ya! It's all good: you me and every little thing!

Good luck with your sobriety. I sincerely admire your tenacity, your honesty and your commitment. One day you will be where you want to be, and it can't happen without trying, sometimes many times over. Keep your head up and your hearts open everybody.

 

[RedLeader]

You can use before meetings...in between meetings...and after. Just sit through them. You'll start hearing shares that you might relate too.

I don't know how I feel about this. I would suggest that you are least try to go to the meetings sober. Or at least use "just enough" to get well and be very discreet about it. For a few reasons:

(1) It's just not fair to the other people there if you're obviously under the influence. Nobody at AA should smell of booze and nobody at NA should be nodding off or flying high. Those meetings are designed as safe-havens from temptations, but we all know that seeing someone else in the state we'd want to be in is a huge temptation. As an addict, a person should know how to control their dosage enough to leave room for a sober(ish) hour or so. If a person's so far gone that this is impossible, the person needs professional detox.

(2) You'll develop an assignation between getting high and going to meetings that could be hard to break once you decide to abstain. They say in recovery communities to change "people, places and things" to minimise the amount of exposure you have to things that you used to do/see while high, so it stands to reason that you shouldn't poison AA/NA like this via using around it. A similar thing happened to me when I made the mistake of getting high at work.