100% Abstinence impossible for some?

[belligerent drunk]

I admire your willpower and ability to see the good in things, Erikmen. I hope that as I age, I will transition to that as well. Currently, I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel, and believe me I have thought and considered it a lot. So my plan is to just wait until at least something to grab onto appears, and take it from there. Meanwhile I focus on being sober while high, so to speak. It's kind of like having your cake and eating it too, to be honest. Unpleasant at times, but the less I see it in and of itself as a problem, e.g the fact that I'm high is the problem, not the result of me being high - it's a problem as long as I'm high even if it doesn't cause any harm to me or others - the less detrimental it is to my psyche. Perhaps when I come to terms with it completely I will be able to drop it. However I doubt that given my weird thought processes.

 

[Erikmen]

We change with time and sometimes our way of thinking makes us take a different direction.
Harm reduction is the soul of our recovery and a great step forward when you lower the risks.
It can protect you and the others who care about you.

It's a good thing that you have the awareness of your situation and know what's best in terms of managing the risks.
Everyone on its own time. Like you said it's a process and it way take its course.

 

[aihfl]

Sometimes though, it gets to the point where you have no choice but to be abstinent. I'm not sure I qualify because I still take an occasional benzo for severe anxiety and panic attacks, but I have no choice to stay off alcohol and opiates. I'm not showing any symptoms of cirrhosis, but my doctor says it's likely I have alcoholic hepatitis (still waiting for blood tests to come back) and would probably develop cirrhosis within 1-2 years if I continued to drink. Welcome to the land of "you've got no choice."

 

[Erikmen]

It's tough! I can understand how difficult that choice may be to when you wish to be able to take care of it differently. However, if you have a balanced diet and eliminate alcohol, drugs etc, you may have much more than 2 years.

I'm not an expertise in liver issues but have seen lots of people with fibrosis 3 having a fine quality life for a long time. It's not only limited to drinking abstinence (or doing recreational drugs) but following specific diets, exercises among other routine medical advice.

Sorry to hear you have to deal with it like that. I hope you'll come to terms with it.

 

[aihfl]

It's tough! I can understand how difficult that choice may be to when you wish to be able to take care of it differently. However, if you have a balanced diet and eliminate alcohol, drugs etc, you may have much more than 2 years.

I'm not an expertise in liver issues but have seen lots of people with fibrosis 3 having a fine quality life for a long time. It's not only limited to drinking abstinence (or doing recreational drugs) but following specific diets, exercises among other routine medical advice.

Sorry to hear you have to deal with it like that. I hope you'll come to terms with it.

Oh I have come to terms with it. It's not just a cliche, but I'm high once again on life. I'm starting to enjoy all my old hobbies again: kayaking, sailing, camping, cycling, attending professional sporting events, perusing museums, watching movies, etc. All the shit I didn't do when I was drunk and/or higher than any Florida slash pine. My doctor says there's a good chance, if I'm still only at alcoholic hepatitis, that this condition can reverse itself over several years.

 

[Man in the Dark]

I know that 100 percent abstinence is not for me personally. I smoke pot and have a kolonopin prescription and I am on the methadone clinic. Its all about making life manageable and being happy. I think some people get so caught up in the word sober that they forget that life is about finding happiness.

Exactly. Some people are in need of certain substances to maintain a quality of life without benzos or opiates my prescribed medication, my life would be miserable. If I got off opiates, I would still stay on the Klonopin. If I am off of the Klonopin I am a nightmare to be around and just a ball of anxiety and stress. If I quit both and started drinking I will become a nasty mean motherfucker. Right now on Opiates and Klonopin at a prescribed dose I am the happiest I have ever been.

 

[Erikmen]

^ Assuming that we all always need to be on something.

Doctors prescribed me Valium when I was 18! It was better than what I was doing.

 

[aihfl]

Doctors prescribed me Valium when I was 18! It was better than what I was doing.

I guess then by that definition I'm not really abstinent either since I am on Ativan for severe anxiety and panic attacks. But like you said, it's better than what I had been doing. It's unfortunate that it took the threat of early death to get me to stop what I had been doing, but better late than never. As an AA sponsor told me, all alcoholics eventually quit drinking, whether you do it six feet under or while you're still alive and kicking.

 

[Erikmen]

^ Very true.
Most people I know quit because of their own rock bottom which may be (in many cases) life threatening events, fear of death, illness and at some point we'll wish to come to terms with our past. We want to feel free and happy, but the path is never as easy as we had imagined.

When I think of how many people I have hurt when I thought I was only hurting myself. All of their prayers, dedication, hope, etc. But when I was younger, none of that made me realize I had to quit. I only started wining when I understood I had to stop for me.

And in the process I see how difficult it is to accept people we love even though they think we have only became addicts because we were irresponsible or just wanted to have fun. The fun part ends when things get serious and we want a way out. But, despite our efforts when relapse, for instance, they can't and won't understand how frustrating that is for us. Or how addiction works.

That's why some of us feel so angry when we can't feel good with abstinence. All we want is to be happy again, but it takes time and at some moments it can be really depressing.

 

[aihfl]

That's why some of us feel so angry when we can't feel good with abstinence. All we want is to be happy again, but it takes time and at some moments it can be really depressing.

For the longest time in early sobriety, I felt the same way. I would leave AA meetings so angry thinking, "why the fuck are these people so fucking happy???" As they say, in sobriety, the good news is that you start to feel again. The bad news is that you start to feel again. There's a huge difference between abstinence and sobriety. Sobriety is striving toward physical, mental and emotional health. Abstinence is a condition that you or someone else forces on yourself. I've seen plenty a dry drunk in AA. People who just get through their day white-knucking it and still behave similarly to when they were drinking even if they've been abstinent for years. I can't imagine a more unpleasant life. It's up to each of us to find something in place of a psychoactive substance that makes us happy. I've been rediscovering my old hobbies: kayaking, sailing, camping, cycling, watching movies, reading, perusing art museums, going to sporting events, etc. I'm also trying to repair my relationship with my post-marriage exgf and even if we only end up being friends, it'll still be nice to spend time around her because understandably, she didn't really much care for my company.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Depends on the person, but I feel it's attainable. But... would I want to do it? no because I experiment with all sorts of drugs but I'm overall a happy individual 90% of the time.



I had quite a drinking problem a couple years ago and felt maybe AA would be a good idea for me. I tried it and the emphasis that they put on "I'm powerless over alcohol" just seemed a little silly to me honestly, and the fact they preach 100% sobriety and if you dabble from time to time you will never live a happy life.

Anyway, now I drink maybe twice a week and use various drugs once a week or so but life is fucking awesome. And I will never be going back to AA.. Works for some but not for me.

 

[aihfl]

Depends on the person, but I feel it's attainable. But... would I want to do it? no because I experiment with all sorts of drugs but I'm overall a happy individual 90% of the time.



I had quite a drinking problem a couple years ago and felt maybe AA would be a good idea for me. I tried it and the emphasis that they put on "I'm powerless over alcohol" just seemed a little silly to me honestly, and the fact they preach 100% sobriety and if you dabble from time to time you will never live a happy life.

Anyway, now I drink maybe twice a week and use various drugs once a week or so but life is fucking awesome. And I will never be going back to AA.. Works for some but not for me.

If you can drink twice a week and keep it under control maybe you weren't a genuine alcoholic. Some of us ARE powerless over alcohol. I know if I take a drink that's all I will be doing for the next week or longer. So whatever floats your boat dude. Personally I'd rather be kayaking, sailing, cycling, watching a movie, reading a book, going to an Orlando Magic game or walking around an art museum than crocked out of my mind on opiates or alcohol but that's just me.

 

[Philosoraptor]

If you can drink twice a week and keep it under control maybe you weren't a genuine alcoholic. Some of us ARE powerless over alcohol. I know if I take a drink that's all I will be doing for the next week or longer. So whatever floats your boat dude. Personally I'd rather be kayaking, sailing, cycling, watching a movie, reading a book, going to an Orlando Magic game or walking around an art museum than crocked out of my mind on opiates or alcohol but that's just me.

Precisely why I said "Depends on the person". I also enjoy those things you mention, but I can enjoy those and also go out with friends and get drunk once a week or so now, where before drinking vodka every morning was just part of my routine, once I was having esophageal complications I made the decision enough was enough and I was not only hurting myself but my friends and family as well and that was enough for me to tone it down. The program just didn't work for ME. Maybe I don't have an addictive personality but I'm certainly an obsessive person. But if I can't get over something on my own then it fucks with me psychologically, and that phrase "im powerless over alcohol" just fucking erked me. I wish you the best and am very happy that the program did work for you though. I've seen many positive things happen for people who were in it.

 

[Erikmen]

Anyway, now I drink maybe twice a week and use various drugs once a week or so but life is fucking awesome. And I will never be going back to AA.. Works for some but not for me.

That's not abstinence at all IMO. It's good that you are using less.
I'm following the idea of this thread which is about agreeing or not with 100% abstinence, whether is is possible or not? Harm reduction, etc.

Having a drinking problem and continue to drink and use various drugs to feel awesome sounds that to me that this is not about being abstinent but trying to use less of your DOC.

I can only share my experience with opiates. I had tried to slow down for many years to the point I felt I had it under control because I was only doing it on weekends and holidays.
Like I was told a hundred times, it's temporary solution for a permanent problem as I was doing more harm than good.

 

[GolemGolem]

But it's also not vodka for breakfast 7 days a week. Maybe Philo just had a drinking problem but was not an alcoholic? I drank like an alkie for a few years, half gallon of whiskey and a rack of beer every three or four days along with drinks at the bar....but I didn't get hit with the DTs or nothing, and was able to gear down to getting drunk once every few months no problem, once I had a good enough reason to.
I think a fair number of folks substance issues are misdiagnosed, and definitely misunderstood.

If Philo and his people are happy with the current state of things, that's all that matters, even if it is moderate poly drug use.

 

[cj]

Progress is progress anyway you slice it and deserves praise IMO. Lets not make this a contest of whose sobriety is better or more real.

 

[Erikmen]

Of course. Maybe I misread what was this thread was all about.
This is not about being in a contest at all.
I've been in far worst scenarios and I'm not here to judge.

But it's also not vodka for breakfast 7 days a week. Maybe Philo just had a drinking problem but was not an alcoholic? I drank like an alkie for a few years, half gallon of whiskey and a rack of beer every three or four days along with drinks at the bar....but I didn't get hit with the DTs or nothing, and was able to gear down to getting drunk once every few months no problem, once I had a good enough reason to.
I think a fair number of folks substance issues are misdiagnosed, and definitely misunderstood.

If Philo and his people are happy with the current state of things, that's all that matters, even if it is moderate poly drug use.

If Philo is moving forward that's what it matters. I guess I misread what this thread was all about.
My hopes that Philo keeps moving forward and feeling better about himself.

Selling an idea that it's okay to do opiates or benzos or drinking 4 x times a week instead of every morning may sound like the opposite of harm reduction IMO.

I've been in far worst situations, so I'm not judging at all.
My progress it's the same as everyone else, after all it all comes to 24 hours at a time.

 

[Erikmen]

Progress is progress anyway you slice it and deserves praise IMO. Lets not make this a contest of whose sobriety is better or more real.

Yes, as long as we don't promote or motivate something else other than harm reduction.

 

[Moreaux]

But it's also not vodka for breakfast 7 days a week. Maybe Philo just had a drinking problem but was not an alcoholic? I drank like an alkie for a few years, half gallon of whiskey and a rack of beer every three or four days along with drinks at the bar....but I didn't get hit with the DTs or nothing, and was able to gear down to getting drunk once every few months no problem, once I had a good enough reason to.
I think a fair number of folks substance issues are misdiagnosed, and definitely misunderstood.

If Philo and his people are happy with the current state of things, that's all that matters, even if it is moderate poly drug use.

I agree that many people with substance issues are misunderstood, though I have to question your statements on periodic alcohol use in the long term, and this includes statements made by Philosoraptor as well. Being able to cut back and control alcohol is great, if you can actually maintain that lifestyle for the long term. My concern is that alcohol builds such a tolerance, and alcoholism is a progressive disease, is it truly possible to maintain control over the long term? When I was younger I was able to control my drinking better. I was even able to quit for a few years on my own. When I started drinking again I was able to control it, until I couldn't control it. That switch from being able to control it to being out of control happened quickly and without obvious indicators.

I neither agree not disagree with what you guys are saying regarding periodic use in general, though I know it's not something that I can personally do (I've tried) as it quickly spirals out of control, and I have no desire to go back to rehab. I just have to wonder if there really is such a thing as being able to control use once you are a problem user. In my experience, my disease alcoholism continued to progress whether I was actively drinking or not, and each time I picked the bottle back up after a period of abstinence the addiction was worse. Just a few random thoughts.

ETA - I reference alcohol because that is what the other posters referenced, and it also happens to be my DOC but my question can be applied for anyone's DOC that they use periodically.

 

[GolemGolem]

I dunno, like my first post It depends on the person, and a whole slew of variable which no one understands perfectly as far as I've seen. Your condition sounds more classical and you know now that any booze is a terrible idea for you, which is good. Congratulations on all your progress.
I still have to control myself, too much time around my Dad and/or hometown where I feel intense shame, sobriety means being silent, sad and withdrawn, and booze is everywhere, and booze makes me happy and confident...that might be enough to send me all of the way over If I ever moved back. My self control is pretty functional when it comes to not buying things when I shouldn't, but if they are already purchased and at home I'll get into 'em right after work...so I've been able to use these observations to keep me healthy-ish.
I'm going on 7 years now since I was drinking like that, so here's hoping for 7 more, and that everyone on this thread finds a comfortable and sustainable way of life.