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So it seems you've got 'prolactin gyno' without elevated E2, right?
I thought it was the general consensus that E2 had to be elevated for prolactin to cause problems..

What are all your thoughts on this guys?

What counts as elevated? The presence of oestrogen alone is perhaps enough? Anyway I think I've expressed my thoughts on gyno a few times, but for the record there can be no true consensus, because there is scarce (any?) controlled research into the condition in AAS using bodybuilders.

Many hormones are seriously out of normal alignment when using AAS, and in the periods of recovery. Not just in total, but their ratios, and their non-physiological fluctuations. We know that gyno is a complex condition that can be influenced by numerous hormones and growth factors and very likely their interaction as well. It's doubtful it's just about the behaviour of a single factor, whether it be androgens/DHT, oestrogen, prolactin, progesterone, IGF-1, GH or whatever.

Much cleverer minds than my own have chipped in with many different and seemingly robust models of gyno development in AAS users, but none of them are complete without clinical studies (and that won't happen), and some seem maybe a little myopic in scope. The fact that idiopathic gynecomastia can occur without elevations of oestrogen or progesterone is evidence enough that estradiol/oestrogen is evidently not the whole story. But they are well worth reading for their insights (eg Peter Van Mol has written quite a few times among others) and you can make your mind up yourself.

However, for most bodybuilders, it would appear that if you control oestrogenic activity at root, coupled with some strong androgenic (eg DHT) effect, you do control the gyno proliferation/differentiation/apoptosis. This has been anecdotally demonstrated a million times over, and I think quite rightly it's promoted as the first course of action for anyone with difficulties.

The time to accommodate other options is only when that appears to fail, perhaps because you're particularly susceptible to the effects of AAS activiting ER via AR, or because your aromatase activity is difficult to control (especially with increasing bodyfat), or more commonly when the side-effects of suppressing oestrogen become too severe (joints, lipids etc) and you can't tolerate stronger DHT-derived AAS. I'm sure there are probably a myriad of other reasons as well, many not yet fully understood.

But what this means in effect is that the automatic tendency to promote DA agonists (eg Caber/Prami) on any cycle with tren etc, is frowned upon because we tend to (rightly or wrongly) believe prolactin has its effect further up the chain in gyno promotion and development. DA agonists also have health-related side-effects that should be considered worse than suppression of oestrogen for the majority of men until the contraindicating factors I mentioned above have been experienced.

So, to summarise my thoughts:

(1) I am not a guru and I don't have the answers :)
(2) control oestrogen
(3) don't polypharmacy without good reason
(4) consider other meds only when you've exhausted the straightforward options
(5) once you know yourself, use what works for you
(6) don't pretend it's a binary right-wrong, yes or no thing and that we/you have all the answers*

*which is the hardest thing to write on bodybuilding forums, since the IQ is sometimes low and the desire for simple answers that soon become parroted fact high ;)
 
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^^to go along with CFC, using caber was a last resort for me. I have 750 mast and had 350 winny per week in me with 0 aromatising compounds. No nandrolone so no issue with the estren metabolite of nandrolone. Using dht with no estro should've meant no estro gyno, winny is suppose to bind to progesterone receptors more strongly than progesterone itself but with less activation, so no progesterone issues there, the only thing left was prolactin which I wasn't showing signs of it other than the lump swelling. Thus caber went in.
 
So as I was cleaning out some of my cabinets to make sure I don't have random 3/4th used vials or bizarrely misplaced ampules I came across some clen. I believe I opened it up about 8-10 months ago, but have about half a container left. Do you think it is still biologically active? Or would the half life associated with the chemical structure lowered its potency? It is from one of those sources that are pretty legit. It is in liquid form. The dosage on it is 200mcg/1ml.
 
(1) I am not a guru and I don't have the answers :)
(2) control oestrogen
(3) don't polypharmacy without good reason
(4) consider other meds only when you've exhausted the straightforward options
(5) once you know yourself, use what works for you
(6) don't pretend it's a binary right-wrong, yes or no thing and that we/you have all the answers*

*which is the hardest thing to write on bodybuilding forums, since the IQ is sometimes low and the desire for simple answers that soon become parroted fact high ;)

Pfft trying to say he is not a guru. The mods on this board are absolute geniuses and irreplaceable. You also can't find the likes of them on other forums.
 
So as I was cleaning out some of my cabinets to make sure I don't have random 3/4th used vials or bizarrely misplaced ampules I came across some clen. I believe I opened it up about 8-10 months ago, but have about half a container left. Do you think it is still biologically active? Or would the half life associated with the chemical structure lowered its potency? It is from one of those sources that are pretty legit. It is in liquid form. The dosage on it is 200mcg/1ml.

I can't say for sure, but let's say it's probably still going to be 95%+ potent in 20 years... so I think you'll be ok.

Most drugs' expiry dates are based on fairly short-term stability studies, in part because it's not necessarily feasible to accelerate the process (ie, the challenge of knowing whether a new medicine will still be 97% active in 20 years).

In some instances the expiry dates have been given an official extension due to the unnecessary cost and disposal of perfectly useful medicines (eg Ciprofloxacin in the US military). Most drugs simply become harmlessly inactive as they degrade, and you're simply losing a certain % of active product. The better stored they are (kept in dark, cool, stable conditions) the greater the shelf life. However there are a few exceptions, Tetracycline being probably the most well known where degraded produce can produce Fanconi-like symptoms/lactic acidosis in very rare instances.

Pfft trying to say he is not a guru. The mods on this board are absolute geniuses and irreplaceable. You also can't find the likes of them on other forums.

I can only speak for myself but it's not false modesty, I'm more of a big picture kinda guy, and I'm all about the equivocation ;)
 
So I'm turning 23 this sunday. I don't really do much of anything anymore. I'm a recluse and rather enigmatic in real life unless I'm on the prowl, but bars and scene stuff lost its flavour long ago. I guess I just have an old man complex in my brain.
What did you guys do for your last birthday so as I can have some ideas. I grew up in the city and made the wrong choice last year to move to the boondocks of the midwest. Country cornflakin' it hardcore and the closest good city is about 2 hours away.
 
^^lol it is rough in the Midwest. I'm outside stl and it's quiet for the most part. My last bday? I spent it with my GF at the time. We went out to dinner at a place an old coworker was a server at. Went home, watched a movie, had sex and went to bed. My bday is in January so not much to really do when it's freezing out lol. My 23rd bday, I ordered my first blast, hand got bit by a dog at work, rented a hotel room with the same GF, had fantastic sex and enjoyed the in room jacuzzi tub. As for my 25th bday next year? Hopefully planning a cut for local bodybuilding show in April.
 
I can't remember what I did for my last birthday... probably saw a film? Or went to bed early Lol.

Nothing beats starving yourself on your birthday Sero! ;)
 
I can't remember what I did for my last birthday... probably saw a film? Or went to bed early Lol.

Nothing beats starving yourself on your birthday Sero! ;)
Lol just an excuse to indulge in a delicious 20oz steak. 25 does mean quarter of a century old though :/ at least I'm not as old as genetic freak... :P
 
Lol 20 oz steak what cut? When I was in Maine last year I spent a 100 bucks to have a local bar cook me 48 oz of filet mignon. Obviously I got completely obliterated to make sure I could eat it all, but ended up throwin it all back up because I thought it was a good idea to mix all the alcohols. I guess you can't drink Hennessy, black label, jose quirvo, and a bunch of Guinness and expect it so sit right? A 20 oz one sounds like a good idea though. Something practical without being a typical american and just going to excess.

I got a place 2 hours away thats an all fresh meat buffet called "Mongolian BBQ". Might have to stuff my face there.
 
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I love sirloin steaks. They're cheaper cut, but lean, no bone, and no fat to weight it down. All good meat. Side of a sweet potato is a must. It's healthy AND tasty.
 
Bought myself an Oreo cookie ice cream cake. I think my plan is going to be binge eating on a last hoorahh sort of thing. Then get technical about my game again. Also going to try to create a new workout protocol to follow so I'm definitely going to be making a thread about it soon because I need some new perspectives from you guys. I've always done heavy weight on a relatively low volume with extremely minimal rest. I time everything. If my rest last 1 minute between sets. Then my sets have to last 1 minute between reps.
 
I've got my 27th coming up on the 15th heh... Probably just go out to dinner with the girlfriend, my parents, and my grandparents methinks. Hit the city the weekend after perhaps.

Thank god I don't look very old, coz I feel it hahaha
 
^^stay on high tren and mast and enjoy some sun lol. Apparently I look a couple years older than I am :/
 
We need to make a "Everything about Trenabolone" thread. I really wanna learn how to harness that raw power, but without the ungodly side effects. Or at least a harm reduction guide on mitigating side effects.
 
We need to make a "Everything about Trenabolone" thread. I really wanna learn how to harness that raw power, but without the ungodly side effects. Or at least a harm reduction guide on mitigating side effects.
So far I think I'm just one of those good responders. I was talking via pm with someone about how my BP is always decent even when using high tren, clen, eca, and smoking a pack a day. No BP meds or diuretics. It becomes "high normal" but nothing to be concerned. My BP was always low naturally. Also my hematocrit has never went above range either despite being on gear over a year. The only blood removed is a few vials for blood work. There's a lot at play with individual response and body chemistry. Some can eat dbol like candy while others bloat from looking at a tab lol. Some, like me, handle tren pretty well even at higher dosage ranges. But as soon as test goes past 250/week I'm slammed with estrogen sides lmao. Right now 150/week test e, 750 tren/week 750mast/week and I feel great. Skin is clear, mood is awesome, strength and size are retarded for my frame, feel healthy aside from my seasonal allergies. Then you have the unfortunate ones who can't even take 50/day tren without insomnia and emotional issues or lose their hair on mast, etc. A tren truth thread woukd be great, but heavily personal.
 
One day I'm going to secretly get some of your DNA and get a genetic mapping. I'll find the markers that are associated with your response to tren and make a vector to alter my expresions to suit me. I get crazy sides from 400mg/wk of test. 50mg/day of tren? Dude I did 50mg/wk which you probably are laughing at while reading this and I had some pretty wild side effects.
 
^^certain compounds just aren't for some people. Maybe look into trestolone? I'm saddened winny behaves the way it does with me as I love the way it makes me look. I mean, it's the perfect cutting drug for me other than feeling like utter dog shit. This fall I'm gonna see my response to nandrolone and anadrol. Thinking maybe 600 test and 350 npp pulsing anadrol for 4 week intervals and switch it with test pp for 4 weeks.
 
Not to put this as an excuse, but merely a interesting obstacle to overcome...I got handed a poo poo platter in terms of my genetic profile that is associated with hormones/nutrition. And I'm cautious to delve deep into various substances because I have such a close relation to my mom's hereditary ailments. If I ended up getting hypothyroidism like her later in my life, then I'm assuming excessive manipulation of my HPTA early on isn't exactly ideal. I know playing Russian roulette with your endocrine system is an accepted part of AAS usage, but I try to practice harm reduction as much as possible. Reading other people's astronomical dosages and extreme cycling protocols provides enough entertainment to help alleviate my own personal lackluster dosages.
 
^^^lol. I say who am I to judge people's doses? If you feel fine, fuck it you're just wasting money really. I've seen people push many grams and look like shit and then this one guy, must've sucked God's dick or something but is coming into condition for a men's physique show on only about a gram and looks fantastic! No gh either, only peptides and aas. I believe he started at 35/day tren and is now at 65/day lmao. And the changes are ridiculous in his log.
 
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