Lysergamides Rethinking the LSA aldehyde theory

[SassysShrooms]

I guess I meant "hypothesis" then I'm sorry. If you take notice I did mention im not an English professor.

I know there's no hard evidence in that patent. It just has a lot of interesting stuff to look at it all from a different angle.

Most of the tests they did were with psilocybin and different herbs. But a lot of those herbs match the classic ones people use with the "adduct theory" or "adduct hypothesis"

Well by all mean, provide hyperlinks to the supporting academic papers. Do you mean theory or in fact hypothesis, because a theory does at least have a weight of evidence and after a decade of research one tends to assume someone might provide something a little more well... vaguely related, if you see what I mean.

We tend to apply Hitchen's Razor.

You provide them and they WILL be read top-to-tail, not just the 'results' section as methodology matters.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Over the past 10 years I’ve done a lot of experiments

Can you run a few experiments using LSA + sulforaphane? It's a common supplement which increases ALDH (aldehyde dehydrogenase) which in-turn removes aldehydes. This could indirectly show whether aldehydes are relevant to the LSA experience (but not specifically the TRPA mechanism).

Everything is a drug if you look hard enough. I think you should look up the affinities for porridge, potatoes and beef.

If you're fixated on affinity to the point where you loose sight of other interactions/mechanisms then you can't see the nuanced wood for the trees. But menthol seems to have a significant influence on nAChr according to the literature.

 

[Didgital]

then you can't see the nuanced wood for the trees.

@Mjäll
While he's right about affinity being only a part of the overall process, this is the snide comment part where he saying since you can't understand what he's talking about you're an idiot and you shouldn't try to argue with or question him. It's a classic Allylbenzene deflection technique (along with screaming ALDH inhibitiors) to try and get you to be quiet. If you ask him to explain he'll often start posting obscure references like https://herbpedia.wikidot.com/1-oxoelemicin
or some french patent or w/e.

I once saw him say he "stumbled" on to some discussion that validated his point. It was a reddit post a few years old with 3 or so comments and none of them validated anything. I suspect he was part of that convo to begin with.

 

[4DQSAR]

It just has a lot of interesting stuff to look at it all from a different angle.

I'm sorry if my comments seemed harsh but it isn't like I just blurted out those details on the spur of the moment.

I told you - you have to be DEEPLY cynical about why a patent APPLICATION was made. I have explained elsewhere that it's in fact very cheap to APPLY for a patent - it only gets expensive when you pay for a patent examiner to actually read the thing and judge if it's novel, inventive and useful. Bearing in mind that examiner has to go back and look at every single earlier patent to confirm novelty.

So after almost 40 years, I think I can spot a genus patent and of course I DID read about the two named inventors and their startup. Sometimes you have to go right down to Google Streetview before you realize that the stated address is nothing more than a secretarial service.

Right now EVERYONE is trying to shoehorn psychedelics into their patents not because they seek to better the lot of man but as I explained, because the system favours using AI to generate a patent application and have no real reseachers but a legal team who know how patent lawfare works. The handful of businesses who timed their patents right acquired them a few years ago based on psychedelic therapy being a potential HUGE money spinner.

So now we see the bottom feeders who simply seek to extract a fraction of that money.

If a system can be abused to profit the abuser, it WILL be abused.

 

[doubledog]

The patent mentioned is very suspicious, they mention in it almost all psilocybe mushroom species known to mankind, lot of LSD-type compounds, lot of phenethylamines and even cacti. It's perfectly clear that no real research is behind it.
They also mention cinnamaldehyde and elemicin, which are big red flags and signs of tregarism.

It seems that tregar and co. are now writing also patent applications to fool more people.

 

[Didgital]

which are big red flags and signs of tregarism.

omg I didn't even notice that part. I did go scope out goodcap pharmaceuticals tho and it reminds me very much of mindmed (which apparently no longer exists). Super pharma bro vibe.

 

[G_Chem]

Having not been around for awhile, I see opinions of Tregar have gone from bad to worse

I have always been curious about TRPV1 and TRPA1 agonists for their potential psychoactivity (euphorbia honey comes to mind) or modulation of other psychoactives but agree this whole thing seems sketch.

-GC

 

[4DQSAR]

Tregarism? Is that like... troilism for plants?

 

[Allylbenzene]

Having not been around for awhile, I see opinions of Tregar have gone from bad to worse

This should bring you up to speed somewhat.

Spoiler: For G_Chem eyes only

Hopefully this is received in good humour.

Of course, the autobiography:

I have always been curious about TRPV1 and TRPA1 agonists for their potential psychoactivity

Downstream from those is the opioidergic and the endocannabinoid system iirc.

 

[Didgital]

What a loving welcoming community

It absolutely is a loving community. I'm not definitively saying you are Tregar though I really don't see how anything in your post debunks his theories. It's not unheard of him to present a slightly differing opinion to his own that way he can start having a "constructive dialogue" that ultimately pushes his viewpoints forward. What's messed up is how a lot of the times, it's just tregar talking to himself. Tregar himself will RARELY actually converse with you or I. I assuming you arent tregar :D

I'd like to remind folks here that using alt accounts is actually against BULA policy so anyone who knowingly does that to manipulate other BL users doesn't actually respect/love the community even if they say they do.

You may or may not be aware that we've had a problem with Tregar and schill accounts using alts to promote his own ideas and his book and to sell LSA seeds (also against BULA). I WISH I'd taken a screenshot of Tregar's direct message to me that had a link to a shady website selling Hawaiian Baby woodrose. I still have the convo in my inbox but he has since edited that particular message to tell me to stop harassing his wife's account here on BL, but the actual message was sent weeks before "lizziebeth" account was even created. Again I ask how I could harrass her when she wasn't even on BL? I certain have never ever met her IRL and I doubt I ever will because I'm not even sure she exists aside from schill amazon comments praising his book.

I used to kind of just feel bad for tregar before that message. Like is it mental illness or extreme need for social acceptance that they would literally lie and distort the truth like they have? After the message though, it became apparent to me that for whatever the reason, he is truly one of the most manipulative people I've ever come across. Even on the internet.

 

[doubledog]

omg I didn't even notice that part. I did go scope out goodcap pharmaceuticals tho and it reminds me very much of mindmed (which apparently no longer exists). Super pharma bro vibe.

There is more.
Below are two citations from the patent.

They claim that they investigated how people feel the effects of ergolines from HWBR. Quite unusual in patent about reducing inflammation. Btw. not using scientific name of the plant is interesting as they used it in the beginning of the patent:

"
[0229] ... MED50 is the Dose at which 50% of participants report feeling the effect of the LSA, LSH and other ergolines present in Hawaiian baby woodrose. Data from microdosing different amounts of Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds compared to the complete recipe demonstrates a reduced amount of Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds required to achieve an effective perceptual dose in 50% of individuals. The MED50 was about 0.280 g of Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds alone but about 0.125 g of Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds with the 07 Base - Complete Composition. Most compositions used about 0.15 g of dried Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds, representing approximately 220 pg LSA, 290 pg iso-LSA, 60 pg LSH and 40 pg iso-LSH.
"

This is also quite revealing:

"
Results from Wellness Retreat Surveys
[0427] Participants attended a five-day all inclusive retreat in Jamaica with a complete integrative wellness package. While no health benefits were attributed to psilocybin, participants were aware of optional microdose chocolates or capsules offered up to three times a day. The formulations were of the 07 - Base Complete composition. In some cases, the composition was adjusted for guests who may have had specific conditions they were looking to address and formulations of other compositions were provided to these guests. Formulations including Base 2 - Mood Support, 11 - Relaxation, 12 - Focus, 13 - Creativity and 18 - Aphrodisiac.
"

 

[G_Chem]

It absolutely is a loving community. I'm not definitively saying you are Tregar though I really don't see how anything in your post debunks his theories. It's not unheard of him to present a slightly differing opinion to his own that way he can start having a "constructive dialogue" that ultimately pushes his viewpoints forward. What's messed up is how a lot of the times, it's just tregar talking to himself. Tregar himself will RARELY actually converse with you or I. I assuming you arent tregar :D

I'd like to remind folks here that using alt accounts is actually against BULA policy so anyone who knowingly does that to manipulate other BL users doesn't actually respect/love the community even if they say they do.

You may or may not be aware that we've had a problem with Tregar and schill accounts using alts to promote his own ideas and his book and to sell LSA seeds (also against BULA). I WISH I'd taken a screenshot of Tregar's direct message to me that had a link to a shady website selling Hawaiian Baby woodrose. I still have the convo in my inbox but he has since edited that particular message to tell me to stop harassing his wife's account here on BL, but the actual message was sent weeks before "lizziebeth" account was even created. Again I ask how I could harrass her when she wasn't even on BL? I certain have never ever met her IRL and I doubt I ever will because I'm not even sure she exists aside from schill amazon comments praising his book.

I used to kind of just feel bad for tregar before that message. Like is it mental illness or extreme need for social acceptance that they would literally lie and distort the truth like they have? After the message though, it became apparent to me that for whatever the reason, he is truly one of the most manipulative people I've ever come across. Even on the internet.

I’ve noticed this happens a lot in drug information communities like this one.. My mind goes conspiracy and thinks it’s just a way to break down trust in all information presented. Just like is done with actual conspiracy theories, throw in some crazy nonsense and the whole batch has to be thrown out.

In the beginning I wanted to give him the benefit of doubt, but the stubbornness to discuss and repeatedly rehashing the same info like a robot had me slowly check out. To me the mark of a true scientist is the ability to view data with minimal bias, it was obvious he couldn’t do that.

-GC

 

[Didgital]

I’ve noticed this happens a lot in drug information communities like this one.. My mind goes conspiracy and thinks it’s just a way to break down trust in all information presented. Just like is done with actual conspiracy theories, throw in some crazy nonsense and the whole batch has to be thrown out.

In the beginning I wanted to give him the benefit of doubt, but the stubbornness to discuss and repeatedly rehashing the same info like a robot had me slowly check out. To me the mark of a true scientist is the ability to view data with minimal bias, it was obvious he couldn’t do that.

-GC

I dunno. Im suspicious noiw. you sure you're not tregar >:O ?

Kidding man, it's good to see you

 

[4DQSAR]

We all begin our lives in a state of ignorance but as time goes on I note that fabulists are far more common than I imagined. People who really do seem to think if they WANT something to be true and convince others that it's true... it becomes true'.

You can present as much objective evidence as you want but in the end, the one thing we all have a finine but mostly unknown amount of is life-span. As Schopenhauer pointed out “Never combat any man's opinion; for though you reached the age of Methuselah, you would never have done setting him right upon all the absurd things that he believes.”

The older I get, the more I understand how many people are happier with the comfotable lie than the ugly truth. They refuse to be disabused of that comfort. As Thomas grey put it 'Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise'.

Even Socratic ignorance has the core tenet that 'the only good is knowledge, the only evil is ignorance'. But I hasten to add that he termed lies as ignorance and that both Western and Eastern philosopy is based on the concept that accepting one is ignorant is a metaphor for limits of knowledge.

So a dozen journal papers from the 1960s and 1970s showing a certain metabolic process occurs in rodent models rely on the axiom that the same process occurs in man, Once that axiom is disproved, any number of papers that use a baseless axiom are, in an instant, rendered to ashes. Just becase there are more of them doesn't make them true - Causality generally agreed as being a foundational axiom.

I think when someone complained 'Well, you can prove anything with facts!' that it hit home. Total belief that 'my ignorance is as good as your knowledge'; bizarre!

 

[red22]

MED50 is the Dose at which 50% of participants report feeling the effect of the LSA, LSH and other ergolines present in Hawaiian baby woodrose.

Just want to note that Peter Webster, a man who gave a lecture about ergot and LSA at the 2006 LSD Symposium believes that LSH cannot reach the brain.

The hydroxyethylamide long thought to be psychoactive actually can never reach the brain, since this compound is a labile adduct of ergine and acetaldehyde. It is therefore transformed into ergine and isoergine rapidly, even by mild extraction methods.

vbest regards,
peter

Peter Webster. Quoted by @tregar: https://drugs-forum.com/posts/184703 2006-09-04

LAHydroxyethylamide was not discovered right away since even gentle extractions tended to convert it all to ergine/isoergine, so this would indicate that the equilibrium lies far toward the ergine/isoergine side of the equation. And it suggests strongly that to produce LAH from ergine you would need some special conditions, which are probably not just having it in the presence of even higher concentrations of acetaldehyde, amounts that you wouldnt at all want to ingest!

Also, since LAH->>ergine in mild conditions, you must assume that it would happen in the bloodstream, even if LAH were able to pass the digestive tube. So there is anotherdoubt about whether it could actually arrive at brain receptors.

Of course, there may be some complicating factors here that aren't described in the papers I've read, That's possible with a great many aspects of LA chemistry (there are still a couple of quite important and unexplained results I got in certain experiments - I even asked Sasha and he couldn't clarify!) but for me, the odds of LAH getting to receptors and causing the initial reaction leading to psychedelic experience are quite low.

Peter Webster  2016-01-05  personal correspondance

"The two principal alkaloids found in all of the Convolvulaceae so far studied are the amide of d-lysergic acid [ergine (VII)] and the diastereoisomeric amide of d-isolysergic acid [isoergine (X)]. These two bases have the same absolute configuration as is found with d-LSD and d-iso-LSD, but, of course, the amide nitrogen is unsubstituted. The monohydroxyethylamides of each of these two materials are also principal components of the various morning glorys; viz., lysergic acid-α-hydroxyethylamide (VIII) and isolysergic acid-α-hydroxyethylamide (XI). These two carbinolamides are the principal ergot products of culture medium synthesis from Claviceps paspali, from which they can be prepared in concentrations of grams per liter of culture medium. These compounds, although well documented as components in the Convolvulaceae, are possibly lost in several of the analyses of alkaloid composition. They are extremely unstable, and are very readily degraded into acetaldehyde and the corresponding amide, ergine or isoergine."

Alexander Shulgin. Psychotomimetic Agents  ↳  Lysergamides from the Convolvulaceae spp.  ↳  1. Botany and Chemistry [Medicinal Chemistry: A Series of Monographs, vol. 4: Use, misuse, and abuse of psychopharmacological agents. Gordon Maxwell, ed. 1976. New York, NY: Academic Press Inc.]
https://books.google.com/books?id=yt2KcKcJROgC&pg=PA72

 

[4DQSAR]

MED50!

Just how old are these references? It's never been an accepted acronym.

It's a synthesis.

MED - minimum effective dose
ED50 - median effective dose

It's classic woozling - someone reads the acronym and adopts it because, well, they see it written down.

I forgot to add that the lysergamide scaffold is present in diverse medicines with diverse targets both central and peripheral.

I'm sure everyone is aware that psychonauts tend to be 'readers' and there is a small but definite market-space for such works. I suppose Shulgin sort of broke that market-space because he wrote up all of his syntheses so everyone is free to check. Suddenly simply claiming a reaction takes place gave way to a series of researchers who adopt that same model. Nichols then Heim and I think someone new is also on the case but it is such a tiny close-knit field that while all would/will answer a sensible question (if asked in a brief form), if you ask things that they already published, expect short shrift - because they also have limited life-span.

 

[Skorpio]

Having not been around for awhile, I see opinions of Tregar have gone from bad to worse

I have always been curious about TRPV1 and TRPA1 agonists for their potential psychoactivity (euphorbia honey comes to mind) or modulation of other psychoactives but agree this whole thing seems sketch.

-GC

Glad to see you around here again!