• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ
  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe |

Can an ego dissolving dose be a bad trip?

LOL to this entire thread - all I can say is that I've entered spaces where there were no referents that I attribute to "regular" reality as I perceive it - yes there were critters of all sorts and indescribable landscapes. Some people would call that "breaking through", and really, who gives a fuck what you call it - I'll throw a spanner into the works: is "breaking through" "ego-death"?

This is amusing.

Continue.
 
Last edited:
Do you see much similarity between the experiences of primitive religious fanatics and taking a psychedelic trip in the twenty-first century? The words used to describe them might sound sort of similar but it's very difficult to know what someone was feeling 2000 years ago, and that's assuming they were even telling the truth as opposed to making up stories to frighten and impress their followers. Psychedelic users don't need followers or Gods - you just need yourself and the drug.

I don't buy the theory that the psychedelic experience is "just like all the worlds major religions". It's a totally different thing coming from an entirely different place and mindset.

While I agree with what you've said (and I share your disdain for religious nuts and the BS they think they are imposing on everyone else based on "communication from God" etc etc), I wonder if you understand the difference between a "religious belief" and a "mystical experience."

Ismene, these 2 things can be 180 degrees apart. A true mystical experience most likely has ZERO to do with any organized religion and is often not even describable in words, or requires many paragraphs to give the slightest impression of even a single moment of the mystical union of self and universe. There has ALWAYS been a major difference between "religious" and "mystical." A real inner mystical experience can be (and apparently & unfortunately often is) later inappropriately externalized, verbalized, rationalized etc. and turned into some retarded moronic religious "belief system."

It's important to differentiate between the two. You may be opposed to the idea of mystical experiences as well of course, you may be an extreme rationalist who believes that EVERYTHING must necessarily be totally understandable by logic and words, and I pity those who think this way, they have missed the most significant aspects of what the psychedelic experience has to give. Extreme belief in total rationalism is as much of a BELIEF SYSTEM as any religion. There is NO evidence that our tiny little brains and their limited ability to model things with language and logic can even come close to totally encapsulating all possible facets of reality.

Total rationalism just ONE WAY of understanding things that incorrectly and without proof or evidence believes itself the be-all and end-all of comprehension.
 
been away for a lil bit but wanted to come back and chime in on ego death.

my last experience with 4-aco-dmt (about 54 mg of the HCl) was definitely the most deep trip i've ever had. 4-aco-dmt has been pretty recreational all of the other times i did it, but this last time my ego was just completely dissolved (and it felt like it was literally melting). at no point did I really freak out and think i was having a bad trip, but i did feel like i could very well end up in an insane asylum by the end of the night. I was talking to random people and was just looking for someone that would listen to my thoughts on life. I'll have to write a detailed trip report on it one day. i would definitely have to say that I broke through during the experience. I even started to tear up at one point (i wasn't bawling or anything, but i definitely had a very light cry) because it was like i could feel other people's feelings and sadness of those who were close to me. It was a very emotional experience, but I feel like I learned a lot of insight about myself and about life.

I could see ego death getting distracting though at times if you weren't really in the mood to experience such deep thoughts and emotions. It's almost like you don't even care about the awesome visuals that are going on (like the floor morphing, the patterns you see on your skin, the faces in the sky and trees) because you're having such deep, intense thoughts. I can see why some people may prefer 4-ho-met (which i have yet to try) due to it being more on the visual side, or so i read. so far though 4-aco-dmt is one of my favorite things.
 
So are there any tips on how to accept your ego death? Because it always sends me on a horrible trip.
 
Just be positive. Say you'll be better than before, and you will be.

I feel its kinda like a reset. You're watching a movie... your life unfold. But you have an ego death and you're sitting in the second aisle, then later your ego dies and you go to the 5th aisle. And so forth.
 
^^@ sadner

best advice i can give is just kind of slowly work your way up to it. for the past 3 or 4 weeks i've been upping my dose on the weekends to see how far i could take the trip, and it wasn't until the last time i dosed that i experienced complete ego death. it can be a very manic thing at times though. at one point it felt like i couldn't escape the complexities of my mind, and i had to close myself in a bathroom stall and try to gather my thoughts of what was taking place. it was both rewarding and problematic at the same time. i would have to say that even though i enjoyed the ego-death, i may take slightly less of a dose next time just so that the trip doesn't take away from the recreational visuals as much. i was having some insanely deep thoughts about life and what was really important to me (which is awesome, but in the situation i was in it was slightly problematic but everything turned out alright).
 
It's not something i work for, it just happens to me sometimes, and when it does I am unable to function, so a better question would be what can my friends do to help?
Was this ego death?
First i thought i had slit my wrists and was dying
a bit later i thought i was dead
then later i didn't know who "i" was
Then i felt that i was everything, that everything was like a huge flowing organism. Picture a tattered cloth flowing in the wind, and i was on the fray, and i was freaking out because i felt that what i was at the time was going to fall off that organism into oblivion.

This same feeling of falling off the united organism that is life has happened twice.
 
Last edited:
I could see ego death getting distracting though at times if you weren't really in the mood to experience such deep thoughts and emotions.

I'm just going to quote this bit to continue the discussion. Can someone tell me if they think "breaking through" is the same as "ego death"?

Is there a distinction?

Loving this thread.
 
Well this is vaguely related I guess. Many many thinkers (philosophers, psychologists/psychiatrists, mystics, buddhists, PSYCHEDELICIANS [!] (psychedelistics? psychedelites? other suggestions?), cognitive scientists, brain researchers, and numerous others) have all declared, based on analyses, experiences, or both, that the "Self" who we feel we know so well inside our heads (well most of us anyway), is in fact an illusion of one sort or another.

Sooo.... if the "Self" is an illusion... then "ego loss" or "self loss" or whatever you want to call it... should actually be considered NOT a state of "being really stoned" or "confused on drugs" or whatever, but actually more "real" than our typical residence inside the "Self"/"I"/"Me" fictional construct. (Well that's my provisional hypothesis for purposes of discussion anyway...)

Ordered this today. Killer cover to stare at while tripping if nothing else :D

Very interesting and well-written detailed review/discussion:
http://metapsychology.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=book&id=5170

And of course a boatload of info/excerpts/reviews at http://www.amazon.com/Ego-Tunnel-Science-Mind-Myth/dp/0465045677

60260705.JPG
 
Last edited:
PSYCHEDELICIANS [!] (psychedelistics? psychedelites? other suggestions?)

Psychonauts, ldo

The Metzinger book is pretty good. The idea that the sense of self is illusory is definitely commonplace in cognitive science, as is a flirtation with some Buddhist ideas. When I first had an ego death type of experience, I hadn't read any psychedelic literature or any Buddhism or any Leary or anything like that, but I was reading a lot of Dan Dennett. Dennett has this cool metaphor of the self as the "center of narrative gravity". The point being first of all that centers of gravity are useful abstractions rather than actual objects and second that the self is sort of like a fictional protagonist in a story that the brain tells itself to explain its own behavior. This made a lot of sense to me at the time, and still does, and I kind of felt like my experience was an empirical confirmation of this idea. Metzinger I think calls the self a "user interface illusion", which is also pretty good imo. Anyway, these things are sort of out there in the zeitgeist of cognitive science and analytic phil. of mind and it's not as if only hippies and heads think about them.

You might also like this book, which explicitly tries to identify the common threads in cognitive science and Buddhist theory of mind.

Also I found this lecture by Metzinger interesting and a good summary of his ideas.
 
So are there any tips on how to accept your ego death? Because it always sends me on a horrible trip.

Just don't fight it. It can't hurt you. It may feel dangerous, but its not. Crossing the road, whilst much less frightening, is more dangerous then ego-death.

The way I see it now (which is bound to change with more experience), "ego death" doesn't start with the sense of self disappearing -- I think that the "self" itself disappears, and then the loss of sense of self is just an observation of the fact. When you experience ego death, YOU temporarily don't exist.

And before you tell me that YOU can't experience something if YOU don't exist, that's just a confusion of the real message with semantic silliness. When I say that "YOU" don't exist, I'm not really referring to you in the conventional sense (your body). I'm just referring to the psychological processes that are sensed as "me"!

An excellent description mate, as usual. :) You've described perfectly what many of us have done very clumsily...thanks.


As for the excellent question posed by the thread topic, I don't think so. I think that pain, at least of the psychological and not physical sort, almost always originates from the self intending for something to happen, and failing to find it. In other words, psychological pain comes from wanting something you can't have. If there is no "I" which desires, then nothing is desired, and failure is impossible. That's why experienced psychonauts will often advise new trippers not to have any expectations, and to "let go", "let everything flow through you", "don't fight it", etc. These are words intended to make the tripper stop wanting things. You see, if the tripper has no desire, this is one great step towards complete dissolution of the ego.

I'm not sure I completely agree here. I would say that ego-dissolution can be frightening, and I'm sure many bad trips have resulted from unwillingness to let go of delusional thinking. However, if we consider that the SELF has dissolved, this does not require the actual sense of self to dissolve too. Like a phantome limb, the self may recede and yet there is still a mechanical, physical structure in the mind attempting to use that sense as a kind of lens. A limb is removed, and yet the purely physical parts of the mind still sense it, and as it does not conform to reality (ie. the limb is clearly no longer there), a degree of negativity/fear ensues. The same thing can happen to the mind in an extreme psychedelic state. People who are in this state may be persistently asking whether the experience is real, they may believe they have died or are going to die, they may act confused, ideas that are normally trivial may take on great significance, perhaps because these notions and sensations are generally blanketed by the sense of self, or idea of self, or ego, and now that the doors-of-perception (!!) are open, one cannot hide behind any defense as the defense has ceased to exist.


In truth, I don't think that the "self" is what feels/experiences human desires, fears, predjudices, etc. because it doesn't receive undiluted information, but receives biased data as fed by the sense of self input (or filtered through the sense of self lens). The editing is what stops when psychedelic ego dissolution occurrs.

If one goes physically blind, the structures involved in vision don't neccesarily cease existence.


This experience can be intenself euphoric though, because for many people, the removing of filters and blinkers is desired and welcomed. People may constantly be seeking such a state, because it might be seen as more 'real' then the usual blinded side of perception.
 
Last edited:
i think ego-loss may be another way of fully submitting yourself to yourself (your true self), or to others maybe? i remember apologizing to my friend very sincerely about any faults i had, and it was like i could just feel any ego or stubbornness i had in my body be completely lifted. it was like i put everyone else before myself. it was both rewarding to experience, but also confusing at times because you just kind of fully submit your pride to the environment. it's hard to really explain but when it happens to you you'll know it.

I'm just going to quote this bit to continue the discussion. Can someone tell me if they think "breaking through" is the same as "ego death"?

Is there a distinction?

Loving this thread.

i would have to say the 2 are similar, but they don't have to always go hand in hand. the first time i tripped i would say i definitely broke though, but i don't think i experienced ego loss unless it was on such a small scale that i didn't notice it. you'll know when you break though by the feelings that stay with you after the trip. you'll feel like you were born-again almost, or if you've just been on a week-long cruise or something. i consider not breaking through to be a disappointing trip, and it's usually brought about by not taking a high enough dose or not allowing yourself to travel as deep in your mind as you potentially could due to the set/setting your in.

i would have to say ego-death is something i was once afraid of, and the thought of it was something i couldn't really see being beneficial. once you experience it though, you're thoughts on it are completely reversed and you just kind of accept it happening and you're no longer afraid of the unknown.
 
^^

My point was that when you are that far out, attributing a description to the state experienced doesn't make any sense what-so-ever. Sure, I've forgotten who I am quite a few times while on psychedelics, but then again, I only trip in combination with meditation these days. I would also note that this has happened with more frequency than entering a completely different space that contains no referents to our regular psycholinguistic reality.

"Breaking through" was termed by McKenna in relation to the use of DMT, and by his description I have "broken through" while on DMT, but I could also say that I've been that far out on mushrooms before too.

So in all seriousness, these terms, like all others, are relative, but fighting for your definition of something that takes place in a different psycho-spacial reality kind of negates the use of linguistic functions.

Every time I have "broken-through" I have forgotten who I am, hence the tongue-in-cheek question regarding "breaking-through" and "ego-death". Losing my sense of self definitely occurs without a DMTesque entry into a completely alien world at times - but then again, I wouldn't label these experiences in relative terms 8)

For the record, I don't believe it's plausible to experience thoughts while either of "these things" are occurring.

<3
 
If you're scared you're experiencing yourself, therefore its not true ego death, you may not be experiencing your body or surroundings but you have to have some sense of self to have emotions. True ego death would be a series of hallucinatory perceptions without a sense of being involved or you would become the hallucinations rather than observing them from a perspective. No by definition you could not have a bad trip, it would be neutral at the time but could lead to a bad trip upon reinsertion
 
Is it possible to have a bad trip at a completely ego dissolving dose of a psychedelic?

In the sense: oh no! I'm freaking out. bad stuffs going to happen to ME.
Uh, yeah. The persona/"ego" is gone, but the most fundamental part of you - the experiencer, and its capacity for experiencing - remains. (Or should the ego be viewed as being the most fundamental, and the experiencer is something greater? Or are they incomparable altogether? I'd say the last of these, actually.) If the experience is bad, then that counts as bad. Granted, you may not be able to judge its abstract qualities until your "ego" comes back.

The "you" was from the perspective of later when "you" reconstitutes, and you remember having an experience in which "you" were not there. But you have the memory nonetheless. Yes it is a paradox. That is what makes it interesting and why we are talking about it. DUH!
There is no paradox, only ambiguity in the use of the word "you" - namely, what it is referring to, which is either the persona with its quirks and opinions and judgements and decisions, or the "experiencer"/"soul"/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, which is the difference between you (in your existential entirety) and a philosophical zombie.

I just woke up and am in a bit of a theta-wave dreamy state, so this post could be veering on being esoteric. I'll probably revisit this later in the day. But if you're having trouble understanding my view, it might help for me to say that I do not view the "soul" as being a Cartesian mind or anything similar, only a constituent of it, if that. Maybe the easiest analogy I could give is by comparing the brain/etc. to a computer: brain:hardware::mind:operating system::soul:user. To elaborate on the case of the "soul" not being part of the mind, is that one could conceive of a mind, as a product of the brain as per my analogy, that does not have a "soul" connected to it. It's uncertain how this would affect its functionality. Without any available scientific data, being forced to rely on reason alone, the most one could say is at least aware of the presence of the "soul" at some level, for it is able to produce thoughts relating to it, as I'm doing here in fact. If the lack of a "soul" does have a significant impact on the mind, "mind" should then include the property of having a "soul" connected to it, and a mind without a "soul" should be its own separate concept. Otherwise, "mind" and "soul" should be separate concepts.
 
Last edited:
. . .stuff . . .

. . . . more stuff . . .

Especially this:

Sooo.... if the "Self" is an illusion... then "ego loss" or "self loss" or whatever you want to call it... should actually be considered NOT a state of "being really stoned" or "confused on drugs" or whatever, but actually more "real" than our typical residence inside the "Self"/"I"/"Me" fictional construct. (Well that's my provisional hypothesis for purposes of discussion anyway...)

Dwayne, good few posts. Like 'em! Agree absolutely. Yes, a genuinely mystical experience as I understand it is not a religious one. It is when you identify yourself with / as the universal mind, the Godhead, whatever you wanna call it. It doesn't put you in touch with God, you become God, in the sense that you are truly the creator of all you experience. That's why people talk about expanded consciousness - it is expanded to the point where all of creation is contained within it. No need for a big fella in the sky when you hold the entire universe in the palm of your hand, is there? ;)

It goes without saying that there is not much left of the small and insignificant 'I' at that point. What remains is a single point of consciousness from which everything springs, that simultaneously both creates and experiences the universe. The ego looks a very small and silly thing indeed from that particular vantage point. The concept of 'self' is truly illusory. The 'self' is just the sum total of our experience, a mask we wear made out of language and the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. What remains when you get rid of it is a properly rational mind.

Like, when Dwayne says, "I had remembered that I was really some meta-being whose thoughts had generated the entire universe," I know exactly what he means, because I've had this experience myself. Other people have also had it. No one ever has an experience of this class when they drink alcohol. I have had experiences where I felt that my self was co-extensive with everything around me, and that I was making the Earth spin and the Sun shine. Do you ever get really drunk and feel like objects external to your body are parts of your self? No? What a surprise.
. . . . .

What does all this mean? Well, obviously it means that "the sense of self" is something made up by the brain. Something that can be manipulated and distorted, shrunk, expanded, and altered in various other ways. Psychedelic drugs can do this. In fact, they can do this so dramatically and so effectively that as it is happening, you may feel that you are dying. Which is not surprising, since your sense of self is what you think you are.

Exactly this. Top drawer post. :)
 
Last edited:
Top