How to handle neurotransmitters in a healthy way?

[Evert]

Is it better to ingest precursors to neurotransmitters (Like L-tyrosine, 5-HTP and some choline-donor)? Or is it better to ingest inhibitors (Like Selegiline, SSRI's and galantamine)? Or is it better to not mess with neurotransmitters at all?

I'm asking this because I am looking to create the best nootropic-stack I can come up with that will have an anti-aging effect / neuro-protective effect in the long run (first priority!) and enhance cognitive abilities in the short run (second priority).

So because it's important to take a choline-donor with any racetam, I tought it might also be useful to take other precursors to neurotransmitters. However, I found that a lot of inhibitors are also presented as nootropics. But inhibitors sound kinda dangerous.

So can anybody enlighten me?

 

[Renz Envy]

From my knowledge, using precursors like 5-htp and tryptophan before use will nullify potential effects.

However substances such as piracetam will work better.

 

[Evert]

From my knowledge, using precursors like 5-htp and tryptophan before use will nullify potential effects.

Before use of what? Before use of drugs? I'm talking about a nootropic stack for every day use, not just for preloading.

 

[sekio]

You need to do a lot more studying on neurochemistry if you are referring to Segelegine/SSRI as "inhibitors". They are inhibitors in a sense but not inhibitors of monoamine activity - they inhibit your body's natural destruction or reabsorbtion of neurotransmitters from the synapse and result in (initially) increased monoamine signalling and later decreased production and sensitivity as your body adjusts to the heightened level of nerotransmitters.

If you are healthy and sound of mind, the best option is really to eat a naturally balanced, high protien diet. Protien is your body's main source of amino acids to make into neurotransmitters and other key cell functions. Supplementation with precursors (L-DOPA, 5-HTP etc) will have no or very little effect in healthy individuals.

The best option is to let your brain and body worry about neurotransmitter levels. Artifically increasing the levels is not always a good thing.

 

[Psychedelic Jay]

5-htp will brighten your mood regardless if you are healthy and sound of mind.

Regardless if you are healthy or not, it is creating a surge of serotonin, It is going to have a effect.

 

[Evert]

5-htp will brighten your mood regardless if you are healthy and sound of mind.

Regardless if you are healthy or not, it is creating a surge of serotonin, It is going to have a effect.

But will it be a positive effect in the long run? Sure it will brighten your mood in the short run, but it might/probably desensitize your serotonin receptors in the long run, or won't it?

@sekio, okay so you say I shouldn't supplement with precursors, but eating a healthy diet will get me enough precursors. That is true for L-tyrosine (which can be found a lot in meat) and choline (which can be found in a lot of things, but mostly in chicken eggs and hearts), but not for 5-HTP, right?

 

[sekio]

Your body has natural feedback mechanisms to prevent huge bursts fo 5-HT from reaching your brain. Ingesting 5-HTP does result in a "burst" of serotonin, but mostly in perhipheral tissues.

Your body naturally produces 5-HTP and tyrosine from tryptophan and phenylalanine respectively. Supplementation if you are not deficient will neither help nor hinder you. It might hurt your wallet though.

Trust in your body's feedback mechanisms, for thousands of years life has been surviving with the built-in neurotransmitter regulation working just as intended.

 

[pofacedhoe]

Regardless if you are healthy or not, it is creating a surge of serotonin, It is going to have a effect.

i find 5htp makes me crave alcohol (or any gaba drug) much the same as citalopram does, also it makes me overly warm and also improves my mood after use of serotonin releasing agents, but on a daily basis it is unnecessary and excessive.


it has a use but realistically you cannot rely upon it except in times of excessive use of serotonin releasing agents

 

[Psychedelic Jay]

Your body has natural feedback mechanisms to prevent huge bursts fo 5-HT from reaching your brain. Ingesting 5-HTP does result in a "burst" of serotonin, but mostly in perhipheral tissues.

Your body naturally produces 5-HTP and tyrosine from tryptophan and phenylalanine respectively. Supplementation if you are not deficient will neither help nor hinder you. It might hurt your wallet though.

Trust in your body's feedback mechanisms, for thousands of years life has been surviving with the built-in neurotransmitter regulation working just as intended.

But, doesn't that happen after the serotonin is already present?

 

[Psychedelic Jay]

i find 5htp makes me crave alcohol (or any gaba drug) much the same as citalopram does, also it makes me overly warm and also improves my mood after use of serotonin releasing agents, but on a daily basis it is unnecessary and excessive.


it has a use but realistically you cannot rely upon it except in times of excessive use of serotonin releasing agents

5-htp makes everything bright and makes my mood flamboyant. I drink like a fish if I have something on hand. Most of the time no. I am not depressed. I do not have mood issues.

 

[Indole]

Originally posted by PofaceHoe

it has a use but realistically you cannot rely upon it except in times of excessive use of serotonin releasing agents

I agree, pre-loading or post-loading dosages of MDMA or other serotonergenic agents does seem to limit any negative effects associated with the drugs. Other than that though, I don't see why taking 5-HTP daily would be desirable.

 

[Evert]

Okay then I will not supplement precursors.

Totally off-topic:

You need to do a lot more studying on neurochemistry if you are referring to Segelegine/SSRI as "inhibitors". They are inhibitors in a sense but not inhibitors of monoamine activity - they inhibit your body's natural destruction

Does that mean that if you take selegiline before taking cocaine that the cocaine will work much longer? I know that combining an MAOI with cocaine is very dangerous. However, for some reason speed works much longer than cocaine and I always thought that was because speed had a kind-of-MAOI-mechanism in it. However, I now think it is more likely that speed has a kind-of-selegiline-mechanism in it. So is it true that selegiline is a safe way to enhance the duration of cocaine?

/off-topic

 

[sekio]

No, in fact that's a recipe for hypertensive crisis (segelegine/MAOI + stimulants).

Speed (amphetamine) works longer than cocaine because it is not easily broken down. Cocaine has what is called an ester linkage that can be reacted with water (in the presence of enzymes, acids, or bases) to break the molecule in half and deactivate it; amphetamine does not and instead must be oxidised by MAO (which is much slower).

Amphetamine is a mild MAOI, but the emphasis is on "mild". Segelegine/harmine/"real" MAOIs outdo it by a factor of 10 to 1000 for activity at MAO-A/B.

MAOIs potentiate monoamine releasers and reuptake inhibitors because the block the secondary means of deactivating the neurotransmitters (oxidisation by MAO-A or B). When the primary means - the reuptake transporters - are also blocked, the brain has few mechanisms to deal with the excessive level of neurotransmitters and as a result you can get e.g. hypertension, heart attacks, things like that.

Rules Of Thumb.
Never mix monoamine releasers and MAOIs.
Never mix monoamine reuptake inhibitors and MAOIs.
Most of the time, reuptake inhibitors will block the effects of releasing agents. (e.g. SSRIs/SNRIs block MDMA)
Don't interfere with enzymatic metabolism unless you have a really good reason.

 

[Evert]

Okay, thanks for the info! :-D