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Can an ego dissolving dose be a bad trip?

No. I understand exactly where I am, it is simply not according to my normal perceptual model.
Your definition of confusion is a definition of the experience, not the process resulting in the experience.
 
RobotRipping just because you dont get scared dosnt mean everyone dosnt feel fear when ego tripping
there are certain things that you can do to ease the trip,
but your first taste of ego death is complicated,
and people who are scared of the unknown will be scared of this.
 
^ scared before or after the trip? IME it is almost impossible to remember anything from an ego-loss experience, the memorable parts are of losing that sense of self and regaining it afterwards. Ever try a big hit of 5-meo-dmt? It scares the shit out of me to think about it but once you inhale it, there's no fear, you just experience whatever happens, and are lucky to remember the blast off. Even high doses of salvia do this to me, I remember tiny fragments of the experience, scares the hell out of me afterwards but during the actual trip I'm not even aware i ever existed and thus do not feel that 'i am scared' as there is no 'i'. If you have a sense of 'i am scared' then you are not experiencing ego-loss.

It's definitely a different feeling than being black out drunk or in a benzo blackout. In what i call 'ego-loss' as experienced from the use of psychedelics I just end up drooling on myself and staring blankly. In a benzo/alcohol blackout I act strangely, letting my instinctual desires come out (here we can involve freud lol).
 
That is why you are a troll, or else you legitimately lack the ability to comprehend that I do not subscribe to even remotely the same fallacious logic as yourself.
 
Yawn. Can you say anything else? You're incredibly boring. Could you try and answer a point for a change instead of trolling insults?

Your half-assed knowledge of "logic" reminds me of this guy:

2266518.jpg
 
Ismene said:
Then you cannot by definition have "lost all sense of self".
Click to expand...

And yet over and over in this thread people have been saying "ego loss/death" is a misnomer and that the only way to lose ALL sense of self is to die - in an ego loss experience, your ego is reformed or diminished, your normal perceptual model is changed, there is still an "I" it is just processing stimuli in a different way.
 
IamMe90 said:
And yet over and over in this thread people have been saying "ego loss/death" is a misnomer and that the only way to lose ALL sense of self is to die - in an ego loss experience, your ego is reformed or diminished, your normal perceptual model is changed, there is still an "I" it is just processing stimuli in a different way.
Click to expand...

Not quite:

RobotRipping said:
during the actual trip I'm not even aware i ever existed and thus do not feel that 'i am scared' as there is no 'i'
Click to expand...
 
I was in Bardo, still knowing who I am and clear headed.
The experience of sense is strange. It's like you experience everything through one sense of feeling but it is way clearer and more precise than our senses together. The rest is the same as on bardo thödol, just I didn't read that back then and accepted the white light sphere or whatever as god (instead of the me) but the result was the same. And then this knowledge thing happened and everything made sense and it was more like remembering than new knowledge. I was how "to be" worked. Memory is vague now. The more you come down the more you forget from the level before. It doesn't sound logical maybe but if some other people experienced it, they will know.

I stopped using psychedelics anyway beside cannabis and I'm actually trying to meditate to reach this state. At least this way I know the route to go. It changed much in my life. Saying lies is normal normally but well somehow I don't want to lie anymore :D I'm really trying to be nice to everyone and try to help everyone I can.

Life has an other quality now. In way of appreciation and in way of cognition.
 
Ismene said:
Not quite:
Click to expand...

I'd hate to rewake this monster argument but i think this is really what it's getting down to.

By definition of ego-loss, that 'i' must not exist during the experience. In times when it distorts, changes or whatever you may not realize it's you, in which case i still think you do have a sense of self as you still maintain some awareness. The ego can be distorted to a point in which one no longer recognizes it, this will be a special case that I haven't figured out yet.

1st. case - this is true ego-loss, this rarely happens on psychedelics or through other means; the sense of self is removed temporarily.

2nd case - self of sense is distorted; this is a form of ego softening, which is quite common on psychedelics

3rd case AKA The Ismene Case - the person was really fucking high and confused, scared, frightened by an intense experience.

In Ismene's defense the majority of people who claim ego loss will fall into his category. The more enlightened into 2 and the ones who can't remember a good damn thing but are pretty sure something profound happen, end up in 1.
Each classification also varies in frequency from top to bottom, 1 having the least frequency in users, 2 moderate frequency (especialy on high doses of breakthrough drugs) and 3 for the douches who get high one time and are so amazed by it that they consider it ego loss for whatever personal reasons.

I think we've made progress here.
 
Well back then I thought the short amnezia by JWH-250 is ego-loss. Like not knowing who you are or seeing yourself in 3rd person.
 
!!4iV4HF9R34g said:
Let me tell you all something. Ismene is not going to accept any rational thought.
I am now again under the belief that the poster is a troll.
Click to expand...

I don't think he is a troll as much as a person who disregards the possible mystical implications of psychedelics. I don't think that this idea is either correct or incorrect; I have no doubt that psychedelics have a foot in the stream of mysticism, but I try and temper it with the power of reason. Instead of being unwilling to accept rational thought, I concluded that Ismene was unwilling to leave rational thought behind, or that he simply had no reason to do so.

Ultimately, I think stark rationalism is a useful quality when used in interpreting the psychedelic experience. In my own experience it is very easy to get caught up in the pseudo mysticism and half-baked idealism of psychedelia, and is probably more dangerous then being devoutly flat earth.

Whatevs ;)
 
willow11 said:
Instead of being unwilling to accept rational thought, I concluded that Ismene was unwilling to leave rational thought behind, or that he simply had no reason to do so.
Click to expand...

I did used to accept it all at face value willow, but after a few years of reading round and my own experience I came to the conclusion that pretty much everything written about psychedelics is complete garbage. The first time I read Ram Dass saying his guru just sat there showing no effects after taking a 1000 mics for his first trip "cos he had no ego", I was like everyone else - "Wow dude!!". I thought about the "meaning" of that for years.

Then I thought about it some more, took a few 600mic trips myself and realised it was a load of horseshit. That's when I started questioning all these half-baked theories like "ego-death" rather than blindly accepting them.
 
So are you arguing against the 'mystical' aspect of psychedelics? Has this whole argument been against the idea that ego death/loss/softening/dissolution is some kind of magical effect of high levels of psychedelics rather than a psychological response to the drugs?

I agree with the idea that "drugs are drugs" and not some kind of mystical 'key' to a higher consciousness, but why is it so absurd to think that the ego can be suppressed given certain doses and physiological/psychological conditions present within the subject? To be so vehemently against such a simple idea seems absurd to me. Yeah, Leary was a psychedelic guru of sorts, and a lot of his ideas were formed when he was 'really fucking high', but that doesn't mean his ideas regarding ego-alteration don't have some conceptual validity to them.

Instead of blindly accepting such theories, it sounds like you're blindly rejecting them.
 
Additionally, Ismene I have argued against the pseudo-mystic teachings of those same figures.

Nonetheless, I do believe that what can be called mystic can be experienced due to being on a drug.
That is because this is not magic, but a different perception of reality coupled with an ability to perceive in a non-linear fashion (often with spontaneous thought generation).
 
The way I see it now (which is bound to change with more experience), "ego death" doesn't start with the sense of self disappearing -- I think that the "self" itself disappears, and then the loss of sense of self is just an observation of the fact. When you experience ego death, YOU temporarily don't exist.

And before you tell me that YOU can't experience something if YOU don't exist, that's just a confusion of the real message with semantic silliness. When I say that "YOU" don't exist, I'm not really referring to you in the conventional sense (your body). I'm just referring to the psychological processes that are sensed as "me"!


As for the excellent question posed by the thread topic, I don't think so. I think that pain, at least of the psychological and not physical sort, almost always originates from the self intending for something to happen, and failing to find it. In other words, psychological pain comes from wanting something you can't have. If there is no "I" which desires, then nothing is desired, and failure is impossible. That's why experienced psychonauts will often advise new trippers not to have any expectations, and to "let go", "let everything flow through you", "don't fight it", etc. These are words intended to make the tripper stop wanting things. You see, if the tripper has no desire, this is one great step towards complete dissolution of the ego.
 
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Nice TheAppleCore, btw what is this picture. Can you link me to more of it, I like the style.

I think actually if you experience ego death, everything is pretty logically described already. You are but you are not who you thought to be. You understand that this is just a temporary state, whichs purpose everyone should seek alone. I think the situation of ego death or bardo happens when you can accept death. The moment you show trust. Sensing is also different. It's like everything is coming clearly from one sense, seeing, hearing, feeling all in one. The coolest thing is that you not just see your front but also see everything else. It's strange to describe. Like the images of eye is in front of you but theoretically you can also imagine other things at your back or sides.

Ego death. When you think you died but you still exist and you understand that your constructed "I" died. It doesn't die maybe but life can have a different value maybe.

Later the moment where you think you can achieve everything you want, you will.
 
!!4iV4HF9R34g said:
Nonetheless, I do believe that what can be called mystic can be experienced due to being on a drug.
Click to expand...

Do you see much similarity between the experiences of primitive religious fanatics and taking a psychedelic trip in the twenty-first century? The words used to describe them might sound sort of similar but it's very difficult to know what someone was feeling 2000 years ago, and that's assuming they were even telling the truth as opposed to making up stories to frighten and impress their followers. Psychedelic users don't need followers or Gods - you just need yourself and the drug.

I don't buy the theory that the psychedelic experience is "just like all the worlds major religions". It's a totally different thing coming from an entirely different place and mindset.
 
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