IamMe90
Bluelighter
I had never even heard of Timothy Leary or been educated in any sort of world religions or spiritual practices by the time I had my first ego warping experience, sure there are plenty of people could say the same...
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Can an ego dissolving dose be a bad trip?
- Thread starter juniorcat
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I had never even heard of Timothy Leary or been educated in any sort of world religions or spiritual practices by the time I had my first ego warping experience, sure there are plenty of people could say the same...
And this proves you had an ego-death does it?
No, what you experienced is called being high on a psychedelic drug. It was only when you read kids on the internet later that you came to the conclusion that it had something to do with "ego-death".
Psychodelirium
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It was the same for me.
This has nothing to do with whether you've read Leary or not. This has to do with how the drugs affect the brain. There are computational processes in the brain that subtend what we call "the sense of self". When you put things in your brain that affect these processes, the sense of self is affected. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand.
Psychodelirium
Bluelighter
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I see you are being deliberately obtuse.
MrGrunge
Bluelighter
^ Because he doesn't have anything new to add. At the very least, those who recognize "ego softening" as a legitimate concept have a number of anecdotal and associative evidence to draw their conclusions from, whereas he's now just saying "nuh uh".
Flickering
Bluelighter
Surely the arguments and insults of the last several pages are looping around to their sixth cycle by now? Is there anything more to be said for either party? We all have our conclusions and I don't think anyone's convincing anyone.
DwayneHoover
Bluelighter
There you go again. Making shit up then telling OTHER people what THEY experienced. How absurd and arrogant. And its a 4th-grade level "debate" technique. Getting old, man.
DwayneHoover
Bluelighter
Because Ismene apparently has a deep-seated need to absolutely always "prove" himself "right" and everyone else "wrong" in every topic... to hell with the actual arguments. I am sure he is ticked pink we keep referring to him. Yes, time to close the thread as "Done And Done." Oh, ROCHESTER!
Psychodelirium
Bluelighter
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Maybe the problem is that when you take doses like 15 dried grams of shrooms with a maoi, you get so fucked up that you lose all capacity to distinguish one mental state from another and "I was stoned" is the only meaningful way you have of describing the experience. Just a hypothesis.
Well it does because he was the guy who thought it up. LSD was in existence for a decade plus and no-one ever mentioned "ego-death". There's not many of Leary's ideas that are still thought of as being true.
When you put things in your brain that affect these processes, the sense of self is affected.
Well as I've already explained - taking alcohol makes you lose all sense of who you are. I guess you'd call that an "ego-death" whereas I'd call it "being drunk".
!!4iV4HF9R34g
Bluelighter
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Okay, this has gone on long enough. This entire debate was settled as soon as it opened.
Let me tell you all something. Ismene is not going to accept any rational thought.
I am now again under the belief that the poster is a troll.
Anyone interested in this topic should read through the first few pages (or even read nearly any post on any page that's not Ismene's, since they're all stating the same thing), or if you must, make a new thread.
I'm really tired of seeing this argument. I left the site for days, and it's still here!! Ahhh! Haha haha, but seriously.
Let me tell you all something. Ismene is not going to accept any rational thought.
I am now again under the belief that the poster is a troll.
Anyone interested in this topic should read through the first few pages (or even read nearly any post on any page that's not Ismene's, since they're all stating the same thing), or if you must, make a new thread.
I'm really tired of seeing this argument. I left the site for days, and it's still here!! Ahhh! Haha haha, but seriously.
Psychodelirium
Bluelighter
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Who cares that he made up the phrase "ego-death". He didn't make up the experience. When I first had this experience, I had no idea there was such a phrase as "ego-death", but when I read people talking about it and describing the experiences they had, I thought 'wow, huh I know what they're talking about.' I mean, this is not complicated.
Besides, the general metaphor of "death" in the context of dramatic shifts in self-understanding obviously predates Leary.
Yes, and falling asleep also makes you lose all sense of who you are, but that doesn't mean that falling asleep, getting drunk, and tripping on psychedelics all affect the sense of self in the same way. These are completely different mental states, subserved by completely different brain processes.
Like, when Dwayne says, "I had remembered that I was really some meta-being whose thoughts had generated the entire universe," I know exactly what he means, because I've had this experience myself. Other people have also had it. No one ever has an experience of this class when they drink alcohol. I have had experiences where I felt that my self was co-extensive with everything around me, and that I was making the Earth spin and the Sun shine. Do you ever get really drunk and feel like objects external to your body are parts of your self? No? What a surprise.
Now on the other hand, we know that there are many other examples where the sense of self is distorted in similar ways. For example, paranoid schizophrenics who experience delusions of thought insertion do not recognize their own thought processes as belonging to themselves. People with alien hand syndrome do not recognize the affected hand as belonging to themselves. There is something called the rubber hand illusion, where the subject watches a dummy hand in front of him being stroked as his own hand is synchronously stroked out of his line of sight. This subject experiences the dummy hand as part of himself even though he clearly sees that it is unattached to his body.
What does all this mean? Well, obviously it means that "the sense of self" is something made up by the brain. Something that can be manipulated and distorted, shrunk, expanded, and altered in various other ways. Psychedelic drugs can do this. In fact, they can do this so dramatically and so effectively that as it is happening, you may feel that you are dying. Which is not surprising, since your sense of self is what you think you are.
MrGrunge
Bluelighter
<<ellisd>>
Bluelighter
I've been following this thread since it started and I'm totally confused on what the debate is all about now.
I'm going to call this state Loss of Sense of Self (LoSoS) instead of 'ego-death', 'ego-loss', whatever just to add more confusion.
Ismene - Isn't what you saying is that LoSoS is nothing more the an effect from a drug that occurs when you exceed a certain dosage and that it's only an effect of the drug?
Others - Isn't what you saying is that you have experienced LoSoS and that it is a very real effect once you exceed a certain dosage of a drug?
Drugs that typically cause LoSoS are Mushrooms, LSD, DMT , but aren't limited just to these drugs.
Isn't LoSoS just a profound state of confusion the you reach when the dosage exceeds a certain level? The trip can be good or bad depending on how you handle the situation?
It can turn bad if the user, when experiencing LoSoS, starts to panic and starts to feak out.
It can also be good if the user just lets go and explores this new found state of LoSoS.
I'm probably missing something here but that's pretty much what I've read through the 7 pages of this thread.
I'm going to call this state Loss of Sense of Self (LoSoS) instead of 'ego-death', 'ego-loss', whatever just to add more confusion.
Ismene - Isn't what you saying is that LoSoS is nothing more the an effect from a drug that occurs when you exceed a certain dosage and that it's only an effect of the drug?
Others - Isn't what you saying is that you have experienced LoSoS and that it is a very real effect once you exceed a certain dosage of a drug?
Drugs that typically cause LoSoS are Mushrooms, LSD, DMT , but aren't limited just to these drugs.
Isn't LoSoS just a profound state of confusion the you reach when the dosage exceeds a certain level? The trip can be good or bad depending on how you handle the situation?
It can turn bad if the user, when experiencing LoSoS, starts to panic and starts to feak out.
It can also be good if the user just lets go and explores this new found state of LoSoS.
I'm probably missing something here but that's pretty much what I've read through the 7 pages of this thread.
!!4iV4HF9R34g
Bluelighter
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<<ellisd>>,
LoSoS is a state of perception in which the ability to process stimuli in your normal function is inhibited to the point of indistinction.
This indistinction can be achieved through many methods, including drugs of any dosage.
This state is not confusion. Confusion is the improper processing of stimuli, resulting in a muddied experience.
This LoSoS state is lucid and crisp, as the neurological method of processing is not impaired, only altered.
All experiences are subjective and individual, not only experiences of the state you call LoSoS.
Of course, this is all improper semantics (but how can linguistic expressions ever define concepts properly, eh?).
LoSoS is a state of perception in which the ability to process stimuli in your normal function is inhibited to the point of indistinction.
This indistinction can be achieved through many methods, including drugs of any dosage.
This state is not confusion. Confusion is the improper processing of stimuli, resulting in a muddied experience.
This LoSoS state is lucid and crisp, as the neurological method of processing is not impaired, only altered.
All experiences are subjective and individual, not only experiences of the state you call LoSoS.
Of course, this is all improper semantics (but how can linguistic expressions ever define concepts properly, eh?).
I think you might be onto something here psychoD. Only not as an explanation for me because I don't get so fucked up I don't know who I am. It could be a perfect explanation for the whole "ego-death" thing. Someone who takes a few mushrooms and can't handle their high may experience all kinds of things. They may well shit the bed and have no sense of self. Similar to a teenager drinking alcohol for the first time.
When I first had this experience, I had no idea there was such a phrase as "ego-death", but when I read people talking about it and describing the experiences they had, I thought 'wow, huh I know what they're talking about.'
But do you really think tripping on acid all neatly links into "all the worlds major religions" through this theory of Learys? Is the world really that simple? Or were you just experiencing the effects of being high on psychedelics?
Yes, and falling asleep also makes you lose all sense of who you are
I wouldn't put falling asleep in the same category as being drunk or stoned. The original argument was that an "ego-death" occurs when you "lose all sense self", obviously being drunk does that perfectly.
Do you ever get really drunk and feel like objects external to your body are parts of your self?
No, but I lose all sense of self. Isn't that what everyone has been saying defines an "ego-death" for the past 7 pages?
Are you now saying that "ego-death" is when you "lose all sense of self" AND you "feel like objects are parts of yourself"?
Well, obviously it means that "the sense of self" is something made up by the brain.
True. I think we all have a sense of who we are.
Something that can be manipulated and distorted, shrunk, expanded, and altered in various other ways.
Definately - when you're stoned out of your mind you feel lots of different feelings. I'm just questioning whether this state is the "ego-death" that "links into all the worlds major religions" or whether it's just being fucked up.
It only seems to happen in a certain minority of people. I can take high dosages and still know who I am. Albert Hoffman always said one of the definitions of a psychedelic drug was that you always had an awareness that you'd taken a drug. I think most people would agree with this.
Isn't LoSoS just a profound state of confusion the you reach when the dosage exceeds a certain level?
Could be. I think it's dependant on the person too rather than just the dose. A lot of people can take high doses and not end up so confused they don't know who they are.
Not according to the dictionary:
con·fused adj
Definition of CONFUSED
disoriented with regard to one's sense of time, place, or identity.
Arn't you "disoriented with regard to ones sense of time, place, or identity" during your "ego-deaths"?