Potential neurotoxicity of an MDAI + MXE combo?

[TheUncreated]

Title pretty much says it all, I am wondering if anyone can tell about any hypothetical counterindications and so forth of this combination. From the pharmacological standpoint, I know that ketamine is quite benign with smaller doses of most stimulants, but I'm not foolish or reckless enough to assume the same could be assumed for MXE. I am interested in trying this little cocktail, as I am an experienced methoxetamine user, and have read that MDAI is very mild to hardly active alone. There seem to be some interesting reports that MDAI does in fact add some color to other drugs. Please, if I am being a total idiot and have overlooked something horribly obvious, don't hold back. Thanks in advance!

 

[abrad84]

There was a death associated with this combination, though it was high dose IV admin. Regardless, I would proceed with caution.

 

[Incunabula]

Yes, that one death from mxe+mdai was I.V, and very high doses.

I would still stay totally clear of combining these 2 substances. I´m pretty sure the guy would have survived had it only been a high dose of one or the other, so some bad interaction is going on.

Also, Some people are reporting negative reactions from combining mxe with stuff like mdai, 6-apb, 5-apb, mdma. While other people are reporting great experience from these combinations.

Thing is, there´s so many other things readily available you could combine your mxe with, why take precisely the mix that there has been one death from? And that has a chance of causing a bad reaction?

tryptamines are generally known to be pretty safe so far to combine with mxe, also the 2c´s seems to go quite well.

There´s a mxe combinations subthread, check it out:

Methoxetamine-Subthread-Combinations

 

[The Network]

Does ketamine have these same interactions or is it unique to methoxetamine?

 

[Incunabula]

Does ketamine have these same interactions or is it unique to methoxetamine?

No, I don´t think so. it seems that ketamine is a much safer drug to combine with other substances, as far as I know anyway.


Actually, imo, ketamine and mxe doesn´t have much in common, except that they are both anaestethic dissociatives of the Arylcyclohexylamines class.

 

[Kbonzai]

I think saying that MDAI is hardly active is a bit of a blanket statement, I mean the effects one feel may be subtle but neurologically I think it has quite a noticeable effect on serotonin (I am pretty sure I am right in saying this). So following this, most people have noticed that MXE plus anything that seems to be serotogonic can in fact lead to serotonin syndrome.

All in all I would say just leave this combo alone, is it really worth risking your neurological health for a high? I think not.

 

[Ismene]

I wouldn't worry about the alleged "death" or "serotonin syndrome". MDAI isn't active in any dose as far as I'm concerned and MXE is a very gentle and less powerful version of K. I can't see much point in mixing them but if you do then the usual rules apply - start with a low dose and see how it affects you.

There's no evidence either of them are "neurotoxic" so I can't see how mixing them will be either.

 

[Incunabula]

I wouldn't worry about the alleged "death" or "serotonin syndrome". MDAI isn't active in any dose as far as I'm concerned and MXE is a very gentle and less powerful version of K. I can't see much point in mixing them but if you do then the usual rules apply - start with a low dose and see how it affects you.

There's no evidence either of them are "neurotoxic" so I can't see how mixing them will be either.

lol......just lol.

@OP, read the mxe combinations sub thread, and then make your own decision about wether or not it´s safe. Don´t make personal attacks on bluelight.

But here we go.....

1.MXE is not just a very gentle, less powerful version of K.

2.MDAI is active as a releaser or reuptake inhibitor if serotonine. Not sure about the pharmacology. But If you have real MDAI it is active!

3.Just because the death is alleged, doesn´t mean it didn´t happen, and that extra care should be taken if considering this mix.

4. No ones saying either of them are neurotoxic. it was just OP´s way of asking his question. That´s obvious.

5. No one´s talking about serotonine syndrome. But quite some people have had bad reactions from combining substances like 6-APB and MDMA with MXE. You just go ahead and read the mxe combo thread.
Personaly I don´t think it´s got anything to do with serotonin. But nobody knows shit about what´s going on. Just that some people react negatively.

I don´t care how dumb you think the other guy is. because I´m going to remove it anyway

And that goes for both of you. ~atara

 

[Ismene]

@OP, read the mxe combinations sub thread, and then make your own decision about wether or not it´s safe.

No problem with that. I'm just saying that because there's some vague alleged "death" that no-one really knows anything about isn't sufficient evidence to "rule out the combo". Particularly when all that appears to be known is that he was injecting massive quantities of it.

MDAI is active as a releaser or reuptake inhibitor if serotonine
No one´s talking about serotonine syndrome.

Actually it's serotonin mate.

 

[atara]

This combo killed a guy! I should try it!

I just don't understand some people.

The lethal dose via IV was 60 mg MXE and 400 mg MDAI. That's a standard dose of MDAI and a high dose of MXE. So don't dose anywhere near those numbers. I would start with like 20 mg MXE / 150 mg MDAI p.o. and work from there if I were really determined to try this for some batshit reason.

And just... like, wow.

 

[Roger&Me]

I think saying that MDAI is hardly active is a bit of a blanket statement, I mean the effects one feel may be subtle but neurologically I think it has quite a noticeable effect on serotonin (I am pretty sure I am right in saying this).

Yes, you are correct.

MDAI has quite a measurable effect on serotonin release, moreso than MDA. Due to MDA's high affinity for catecholamine sites, it causes more overall monoamine release but less serotonin relase than MDAI. And while MDAI is considered "highly selective" for 5-HT release I think it most likely still has minor catecholamine releasing effects as well. Judging by the entactogen SAR, its effects on catecholamine release should fall somewhere between MBDB and MMAI.

It should have less catecholamine effect than MBDB because it is rigid and 5-HT sites prefer flat molecules, and it should have more catecholamine affinity than MMAI because it has a meta oxygen that is conformationally restrained such that its lone pair electrons are anti to the 4-position substituent. Catecholamine sites require this conformation for binding, hence why MMAI has such a ridiculously low affinity for them-- because its meta oxygen's lone pairs are on a methoxy, which is free to spin around so its lone pairs are syn to the 4 sub.

If another person with knowledge on entactogen SAR would like to referee my logic/reasoning re:MDAI and cat. release, I would appreciate that. I know it is claimed to be "highly selective for 5-HT", but my gut tells me that it is definitely not totally so.

 

[psood0nym]

This combo killed a guy! I should try it!

I just don't understand some people.

The lethal dose via IV was 60 mg MXE and 400 mg MDAI. That's a standard dose of MDAI and a high dose of MXE. So don't dose anywhere near those numbers. I would start with like 20 mg MXE / 150 mg MDAI p.o. and work from there if I were really determined to try this for some batshit reason.

And just... like, wow.

Is 400 mg really a standard dose? Erowid lists 300 mg oral as being at the upper limit of the strong range for oral dosing of MDAI. Perhaps reports you've read of 400 mg dosing being standard were regarding highly impure MDAI or tolerant users? To IV over twice a high oral dose of a serotonin releaser strikes me as clearly reckless. Is it possible that that dose of MDAI IV could kill a person regardless of the presence of MXE?

I do agree trying the combo seems potentially dangerous regardless, and in any event not that promising. It's hard to imagine it adding much to MXE. I thought the utility of MDAI was to inch up the proportion of serotonin release in triple releasers like methylone, or to use in conjunction with DARI stimulants like methylphenidate to make them more empathogen-like. I suppose maybe having high levels of dopamine (from MXE's purported DARI effects) and serotonin at the same time could be pleasant, but somehow I doubt the dopamine increase is strong enough (not to mention I've read that any time there's high concentrations of dopamine and serotonin some neurotoxic damage can be expected). I certainly didn't notice any profound empathogen-like euphoria when I combined MXE with DXM (a strong serotonin reuptake inhibitor).

 

[TheAzo]

400mg of MDAI is a very reckless dose orally, and incredibly reckless IV.

Honestly, pushing the dose of MDAI to the point where the effects of MDAI on it's own are good is itself reckless! Huge doses of MDAI (and I consider 400mg to be huge) can lead to the sort of brain zaps that MDMA users experience (in one of the MDAI threads we have a report of brain zaps after someone went through only like 800mg iirc within a day or two? something like that) --- only with nowhere near as good of a high!
MDAI does really shine at lower doses in combos with stimulants, and i've been told it can be good with psychedelics, but on it's own, it's not a good drug at safe doses.

I'd venture a guess that the reported death was due to SS, seeing as it involved a massive dose of a serotonin releaser... Maybe MXE has weak MAOI effects? That would explain why it has caused worrisome effects in combination with empathogens, while some people who take that combination do fine. Same thing is true with other weak MAOI's + empathogens - ex: 2C-T-7 - there are plenty of people who say that 2C-T-7 + MDMA was great, and at least 2 dead people for whom the combination didn't work out so well.

The combination doesn't really make sense, in any case. I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of it.

I certainly didn't notice any profound empathogen-like euphoria when I combined MXE with DXM (a strong serotonin reuptake inhibitor).

serotonin reuptake inhibitors don't produce empathogen-like effects when combined with stimulants. You need a releaser.
Considering how antidepressants and ADHD med scripts are thrown around, we'd be hearing news stories about kids getting high off of adderall + prozac (with corresponding media hype) if stimulant + serotonin reuptake inhibitors would produce a high.

If another person with knowledge on entactogen SAR would like to referee my logic/reasoning re:MDAI and cat. release, I would appreciate that. I know it is claimed to be "highly selective for 5-HT", but my gut tells me that it is definitely not totally so.

Well, the original study included numbers for DA and NE release/reuptake. It had hardly any effect. You can dig up the paper if you want, it was posted in ADD like 2 years ago...
Also, that makes sense anecdotaly, since MDAI has no subjective stimulant effects, isn't that recreational on it's own, and gets significantly more interesting when combined with a stimulant.

 

[psood0nym]

serotonin reuptake inhibitors don't produce empathogen-like effects when combined with stimulants. You need a releaser.
Considering how antidepressants and ADHD med scripts are thrown around, we'd be hearing news stories about kids getting high off of adderall + prozac (with corresponding media hype) if stimulant + serotonin reuptake inhibitors would produce a high.

So high amounts of serotonin and dopamine in the synapse in the right areas of the brain isn't sufficient for euphoric effects if the serotonin levels are high only due to reuptake inhibition? Do you know why release is necessary? Is is simply that serotonin levels don't get high enough using SRIs, or it happens too slowly? Adderall should be enough to get most people high on its own, without SSRIs, shouldn't it? It's a triple monoamine releaser. I know it works on me! I guess I should've said increased euphoria rather than implying empathogenesis with regard to the MXE/DXM combo. I know empathogens tend to result in a high proportion of serotonin relative to other monoamines, with the balance in particular portions of the brain being of importance as well.

 

[IamMe90]

This combo killed a guy! I should try it!

I just don't understand some people.

The lethal dose via IV was 60 mg MXE and 400 mg MDAI. That's a standard dose of MDAI and a high dose of MXE. So don't dose anywhere near those numbers. I would start with like 20 mg MXE / 150 mg MDAI p.o. and work from there if I were really determined to try this for some batshit reason.

And just... like, wow.

How on earth is 400mg IV at all comparable to 300mg orally?

 

[TheAzo]

So high amounts of serotonin and dopamine in the synapse in the right areas of the brain isn't sufficient for euphoric effects if the serotonin levels are high only due to reuptake inhibition? Do you know why release is necessary? Is is simply that serotonin levels don't get high enough using SRIs, or it happens too slowly? Adderall should be enough to get most people high on its own, without SSRIs, shouldn't it? It's a triple monoamine releaser. I know it works on me! I guess I should've said increased euphoria rather than implying empathogenesis with regard to the MXE/DXM combo. I know empathogens tend to result in a high proportion of serotonin relative to other monoamines, with the balance in particular portions of the brain being of importance as well.

Adderall has only tiny effects on serotonin, it acts mainly as a DA/NE releaser.

Well, as far as I know (and with moron kids eating anything in a perscription bottle, it would have been discovered) taking an SSRI does not make adderall produce effects that are better than adderall alone. Serotonin reuptake inhibition is not recreational. And triple reuptake inhibitors likewise end up being straight stimulants at best (naphyrone comes to mind - it inhibits serotonin reuptake, but its just another stimulant, and a second rate one at that. I feel like there was another triple release inhibitor that was being sold by a few vendors, and wasn't interesting)...

With DA/NE, you get very similar effects from releasers and reuptake inhibitors. With serotonin, reuptake inhibitors don't seem to be recreational. You can't get high on antidepressants (at least not SSRIs), and combining them with adderall for DA/NE (to increase levels of all three) doesn't do anything different from taking adderall alone (except for adding any applicable sideffects of the SSRI). Yet adderall + a releaser like MDAI (even in small doses) produces a noticeably different effect profile - a poor substitute for MDMA, but you can see that it's going in that direction.

I don't think the reasons for this are understood (i certainly don't know them, if they are. Maybe David Nichols knows)... but it is empirically clear serotonin reuptake inhibition produces effects qualitatively very different from serotonin release (unlike DA/NE where you get a stimulant effect regardless of whether you release them or inhibit reuptake). I would argue that we can't explain it by simply chalking it up to lower HT levels resulting from RI vs release, either, since low doses of serotonin releasers still produce an effect that is different from a reuptake inhibitor - and in medical use, SSRI's don't produce therapeutic effects until you've taken it for a week or longer, while releasers have immediate effects.

 

[Ismene]

This combo killed a guy! I should try it!

I just don't understand some people.

I'm a bit wary of taking "This killed a guy" at face value atara. Are you from the UK? Mephedrone, methylone all got banned recently. They got banned because a story went round that "Mephedrone killed a guy". All his mates were certain - "Yep, he used mephedrone and died. Standard dose too. No question about it".

3 months after mephedrone was made illegal, the inquest into his death was held. He hadn't taken any mephedrone. He'd taken methadone.

Another story went round about a "Guy who had died taking mephedrone, no doubt about it, it's a killer". At his inquest it turned out he had a chronic heart condition.

I really used to enjoy methylone - and now because of two fucking stupid scare stories I can't take it anymore.

So before we start making blanket statements like "This killed a guy" we need to know a bit more about the case and the guy concerned. I'm all for harm reduction but that doesn't mean I'm for scare stories.

 

[Ismene]

The lethal dose via IV was 60 mg MXE and 400 mg MDAI.

Just one question atara, I'm assuming this guy died right? So where did these dosages come from? Did he keep a signed and dated journal of what he was shooting up?

 

[Incunabula]

I don´t care how dumb you think the other guy is. because I´m going to remove it anyway

And that goes for both of you. ~atara

Thanks, Atara, you`re completely right

 

[Ismene]

Thanks, Atara, you`re completely right

You were just having a bad day wern't you.