Lsd enlightenment without lsd

[shpongle1987]

I was just reading a book about Richard Alpert (Ram Dass) and came across something so amazing it put a smile on my face for hours. So richard was talking about his trip to india to seek spiritual enlightenment after not quite finding it in the states while using lsd with leary and the rest of the gang and mentioned about an experience he had with his guru Neem Karoli Baba. So he pretty much meets this neem fellow and tells him about all of his experiences with lsd and hows hes trying to seek enlightenment but its just not working. So richard pulls out a bag of a bunch of lsd pellets in front of neem and neem asks if he could try some. Richard was very weary of giving it to him because 1. the man had never tripped before 2. the lsd was really strong sunshine pellets from owsley which were 200-250mgc each. So alperts pulls out the bag of about 17 pellets and the guru picks up all the pellets and puts every last one into his mouth. Alpert was freaking out of course but something weird happened. For 7 hours Alpert watched him sitting there but the guy never tripped out at all. He told Alpert that "its allready all up here" pointing to his head. I find it hard to believe ANYONE can take that much acid and keep composure but according to Alpert that's what happened and i dont take that man to be a liar. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Apollo Matta]

ive read this somewhere too,
it really changed my thoughts on altered states in general,
i think you work towards the states you get into,
and that psych's are just a tool to open your mind even further,
shulgin will say that you can only reach certain levels with drugs,
our natural brain just cant recreate what drugs do,

though during spiritual experiences, dmt might be released.
so saints and prophets might just be early psychonauts,
because why do we do dmt in the first place,
for answers? to see beyond? for understanding?
imagine if they had access to the drugs we have now though,
well there are people like that today,

some people say that the more you do something the more mundane it gets,
but if you think of it like music or something you like,
how can it?
think of tripping like a book and each time you dose, you start a new page/

and i believe that he monk or whatnot took the lsd and didnt show signs of tripping,
what do you expect from someone who meditates everyday and has huge mind control,
its the western media that alienates us from what lsd is really,
its just a drop of awareness in a swarm of chaos,
and if you live everyday, aware and peaceful,
psych's dont change you, they remind you,
and reinforce the path you have already chosen

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

i've heard that story before....and honestly, i can kind of believe it. i can see that someone may have access to that same level of consciousness without it. i wonder if he felt anything though...? keeping composure is one thing, to have no noticable change would be another.

you're gonna get hit with resisitence for this one. this story has controversey on this board, many people say he played some sleight of hand bs and didn't eat them.

 

[JJ-180]

You have to remember that shamen are not necessarily telling the truth ! A lot of their "act" is misdirection and suggestion ("Rule 1:The Doctor lies".) It doesn't invalidate the story, but it does require that we look at it from all possible angles....

 

[shpongle1987]

Well im not sure about him being able to have such control over his mind that he help composure because I feel like giving that much acid to ANY human would exhibit some sort of visible proof that he/she was tripping. The amount he took mind boggling. @thoughts....I never really thought about him possibly doing the ole slight of hand trick and pocketing them and then lying to him in order to gain his trust in thinking hes some sort of amazing guru. It kind of would make sense but I guess no one can really know. I mean im sure the guru meant well by it if he did trick him... Richard Alpert became a very well known figure back in the day mostly from the book he wrote which Ive heard is amazing, but i believe all that stemmed from his experience with the guru. But hey i guess sound mind doesn't mean sound body seeing as he had a horrible stroke in his later years and pretty much suffered for a good chunk of his last years on earth. I don't know where i was really going with that...il stop rambling now

 

[TheAppleCore]

For 7 hours Alpert watched him sitting there but the guy never tripped out at all. He told Alpert that "its allready all up here" pointing to his head.

I'm sorry, but I cannot be led to believe such a tale. It's utterly impossible. You can't take 3-4 milligrams of LSD without having a reaction. No Eastern religion or spiritual practice can take you THERE. And if it could, those "gurus" would live a life of unending psychosis, basically.

The guru must have faked taking the drug, in the attempt to "prove" his great spiritual achievements.

Kind of sad. If he had only taken one of the pellets, it would have made for a neat story!

 

[Ismene]

I find it hard to believe ANYONE can take that much acid and keep composure but according to Alpert that's what happened and i dont take that man to be a liar. Any thoughts on this?

I don't think Alpert was lying he was just conned. According to a guy who was also there this "guru" of Alperts was good at sleight of hand (like a lot of those indian gurus/conmen are) and simply palmed the LSD and pretended to take it. Apparantly once he'd conned Alpert he put the LSD in the ash from his fire and then gave the ashes to some of his other disciples - because the ashes from a gurus fire are supposed to be "holy". They tripped and believed he was a holy master. They must have thought the cheese under his cock skin was sacred

I don't think it was 17 pellets - I thought the story went that that it was 3 tabs of acid - about 900-1000 mics. Obviously no-one can take that much acid and be unaffected by it. Even if you believe the horseshit that he wasn't feeling any psychedelic effects, just the physical speeding effect of a thousand mics of acid would make someone feel fidigity and want to stand up and move around.

The idea that 1000 mics of acid is exactly the same as the effect you get from meditating is horseshit pure and simple.

 

[Ismene]

you're gonna get hit with resisitence for this one. this story has controversey on this board, many people say he played some sleight of hand bs and didn't eat them.

I don't know whether "many" people say it thoughts. I do - but that's because I've read the Clark Heinrich book with the story of a guy who was also there with Alpert.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

i just remember this coming up a year or so ago and being hit with debate.
maybe it was just your solidity that led me to have a memory of it having 'much debate'.
isemene has the power of at least 3 men in debate understandable mistake i believe

 

[Roger&Me]

Like the vast majority of those Indian "guru" dudes, Neem Karoli Baba was just a con artist who was adept at sleight-of-hand tricks.

People like to believe this story because it sounds cool and they want to believe in the power of eastern quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo.

 

[lunacyycanul]

Well I think this is important to understand: The nature of psychosis stems from the attachment to sanity, to having to appear a certain way in order to continue to be "normal" or "fit in". These Guru's spend their whole lives trying not to have attachments or expectations to anything, while simultaneously looking to see more and more of the world. On LSD you see a much deeper meaning in things, it's very metaphorical and it's tailor fit to your psyche. If the guru had no fear and no attachments for the LSD to play on and strived to see the world on that metaphorical level all the time, then you tell me what would happen?
I think it's perfectly plausible, that and Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) is a very intelligent and aware man. Do with that what you will.

 

[Roger&Me]

These Guru's spend their whole lives trying not to have attachments or expectations to anything

lol sometimes I wonder how many people around here I could get to drink the kool aid, and I'm not talking about the psychedelic kind. I definitely don't buy the guru line of bullshit- they're just people who have found a convenient way to live without having to work, by exploiting their gullible devotees.

Honestly, I could dig that job. The best kind of groupies are the ones that do it with religious fervor. :D

 

[Flickering]

Well I think this is important to understand: The nature of psychosis stems from the attachment to sanity, to having to appear a certain way in order to continue to be "normal" or "fit in".

That's actually quite apt, though I question whether it's universally true.

These Guru's spend their whole lives trying not to have attachments or expectations to anything, while simultaneously looking to see more and more of the world.

In my experience, these gurus have all at least likely been full of shit. One of them I knew personally to be an adept charlatan, and several others I looked into and found some very suspect stuff. The very claim of being without attachment seems to me like a pipe dream, and full permanent enlightenment, an illusion. It is not in our nature to not want. The only way I can think to do it is to be in a coma.

If the guru had no fear and no attachments for the LSD to play on and strived to see the world on that metaphorical level all the time, then you tell me what would happen?

I suppose, in this hypothetical senario, that the guru would have a very strange and mind-warping experience, but he would view it all with total objectivity and be unmoved. He wouldn't feel no effects, though, which was the claim.

 

[TheAppleCore]

I definitely don't buy the guru line of bullshit- they're just people who have found a convenient way to live without having to work, by exploiting their gullible devotees.

I'm sure that happens, but that's a pretty bold generalization to make. There are definitely people out there who have a genuine interest in sharing discoveries they made on their own spiritual path.

 

[atara]

Literature on meditation is about as good as the literature on psychedelics, more or less.

We used to hang out at this Thai Buddhist place where they gave you free food if you meditated. We would get all enlightened and then afterwards we would drink PBR and smoke like nine bowls.

Y'know what though? Shit works.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w812027301216527/

 

[Roger&Me]

There are definitely people out there who have a genuine interest in sharing discoveries they made on their own spiritual path.

Yeah but you don't find those people calling themselves "gurus", you find them chopping wood and carrying water so to speak. I might go as far as to say that anyone willing to take the guru job is probably spiritually/morally deficient by definition.

 

[Aporia]

Now I could be very wrong, as my source comes from Grof's work and I'd like to trust the guy however he is in a position of power and dealing with psychedelics so there could be some misinformation in his books. However, I did read that in his thousands of studies on LSD he was not able to find a constant reaction acrosst he board-there wasn't one side effect that affected EVERYONE who took it in the same way. He even wrote about people ( I believe the subject was severly OCD) who were given massive doses and showed no effect. He also references Ram Dass's guru in regards to certain people not feeling the effects of lsd.

I can't say that I believe either story as the older I get the more I realize that the only thing to believe is what I can verfiy myself

 

[Ismene]

However, I did read that in his thousands of studies on LSD he was not able to find a constant reaction acrosst he board-there wasn't one side effect that affected EVERYONE who took it in the same way

Was he talking more about mental effects tho? Perhaps he wouldn't have meant such a massive dose as 1000 mics. That's going to affect someone physically even if not mentally.

 

[sheepie]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2309502165382017424

 

[Psychodelirium]

I remember that claim from Grof, too. It was indeed OCD patients iirc and he was talking about doses over 1mg.