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Anxiety and Neurotransmitters

Mystery Brew

Mystery Brew

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
1,152
I had anxiety, social anxiety since I was in elementary school

I found my perfect anxiolytics medication opiates. Heavily addicted at one point. Rehab I got medication prescribed. Fast forward two years. Celexa, Neurontin, Wellbutrin is what I take now. Pdoc said Neurontin is good for anxiety because it works on GABA....(GABA-b). which I Im not even sure if it even works for anxiety that way. Ive been taking 800mg 3x a day for 2 years...got the same effect as a sugar pill.

Celexa, I suppose it gave less edgy feeling; lethargic and asexual is a bad trade off

Wellbutrin, gives me energy to counter act those lethargic feeling but gives me a little nervous tension. Positive out way the negative.

I do not find Benzos recreational or produce any sort of euphoria. They remove anxiety for me well but I still dont find the recreation part of it. Although it makes me a zombie if take to much. low dose clonozepam works best

Although on opiates I have the "pep" and no anxiety what so ever.

Benzos: GABA-a

GABA-a is well known as controlling the anxiety.

Serotonin (SSRI) some believe play a part in anxiety...although for most people on SSRI for anxiety it does not seem to work at all

Opiates: Opioid receptors, dopamine, endorphins...
probably more neurotransmitter effected you can enlighten me on

Opiates removes anxiety without a doubt.

My question is:

Does opioid receptors, endorphins, dopamine play a big part in anxiety?
 
Opioids are not a sustainable treatment for anxiety/depression.

Look into e.g. clonidine - epinephrine and norepinephrine play a big part in anxiety.
 
^ probably the only opiate that could be used for depression. even though, i still noticed tolerance to bup and after the first month using therapeutically, i did not achieve the same anti-depressant/anxiolytic effect as when i first took it; that's how it is with all drugs...

the only anxiolytic that delivers constant results (for me) is exercise.
 
Buprenorphine does work for anxiety and depression...but I wouldn't say its sustainable. That could be said for most drug-based antianxiety/antidepression treatments on the market today.
 
IMO I would risk bupe before messing with benzos, antidepressants, or clonidine. If you think opiate Wd's are hell then don't even get involved with benzos. People who go on intense opiate withdrawals are completely better in one month. I've heard about people experiencing withdrawals from paxil for several months. Bupe is getting rid of your anxiety because it makes you feel good. Try to find something non-drug related to feel good about or try your best to try to get rid of "mental traps" that lead to anxiety. Besides neurontin is a "calcium channel inhibitor" not really something that affects the gaba-a or gaba-b receptors like benzos or ghb respectively. It does mimic the actuall gaba molecule by being an "analogue" and it apparently works by reducing calcium influx rather than increasing chloride influx into the neuron. This can calm down excited neurons. I would consider a mild strength and well absorbed magnesium supplement i.e. not magnesium oxide and getting off the drugs.
 
From the OP it sounds as though benzos work just the way they are meant to for anxiety for you and that you are not only seeking a cure for your anxiety, but also something that forces you to feel good about yourself and about life, i.e. opiates. Exercise has been mentioned here, as well as getting off drugs. Both very, very good ideas if you aren't currently doing this. Also sleeping patterns and healthy eating. Basically, feeling good about yourself, your life, where you're going, etc. will yield far better, sustainable results than any chemical ever could.
 
Anxiety is going to involve some type of emergence, wrought of a variety of 'circuits' throughout the brain. All these neurotransmitters involved play a particular role in a given context. GABA agonism appears to inhibit signalling in a variety of areas downstream, mostly mediated by glutamate (a way 'general' transmitter), but also attenuating (nor)epinerphinergic action. IIRC, such adrenal activation increases amygdalic activity. Neurontin actually doesn't have much of an effect on GABA, but in blocking alpha-sigma voltage gated calcium channels, it also reduces activation downstream. I think that the anxiolysis of opioids is less well understood (at least by me :P). Phenomenologically, dopminergic activity seems to 'mold' anxiety via (nor)adrenal activity into excitement, by augmenting transmission via the VTA/NA seek-and-reward circuit. SSRIs are shit and may be disregarded.

Sekio's advice is quite sound.

ebola
 
vortex30 said:
From the OP it sounds as though benzos work just the way they are meant to for anxiety for you and that you are not only seeking a cure for your anxiety, but also something that forces you to feel good about yourself and about life, i.e. opiates.
Click to expand...

^^ Well said.

Really, it's dangerous to use any drug that you enjoy recreationally as a treatment, because you will most likely end up having an addiction problem.

While I do agree that benzo withdrawal is fucking TERRIBLE (had to go off myself when I moved and had to wait 6 months to be accepted as a new patient...), if you use them the way you are supposed to, and you don't just go off them cold turkey one day, you will be okay. Since you don't get that recreational aspect from them (neither do I), that's a much safer alternative than trying to control yourself on opiates. Just don't let old habits become new ones. And try to keep your dose as low as possible. You really shouldn't ever need more than .5 mg of say, Xanax, to fight off a panic attack, unless you're taking a higher dose daily.

Remember: drugs used for therapy are simply to get you back on your feet, to where you can function again, to where you can MANAGE your symptoms. They're not going to change the things that make you anxious or depressed, they're not really going to change your outlook, they're not going to magically cure you. That's all stuff you have to do on your own. So many people will just pop one pill after another until everything is smiles and rainbows, but then you're teaching yourself to NEED those pills.

If you're looking for a "pep," as others said, you should try to find that elsewhere, especially in a non-narcotic. Hell, eat some seafood - it's pretty rich in B-vitamins, which will give you a bit of energy, as well as help with your anxiety and overall health.

I wish you the best of luck :)
 
Anxiety in and of itself is an action of the parasympathetic nervous system (PSNS).

CNS NT's can regulate this reaction in a complex series of feedback mechanisms etc. This also however depends upon what your anxiety stems from and many other factors. But when your CNS receives external stimulus that something is in some way a threat, it will trigger the PSNS to induce a stress response to that stimulus, which can range from mild nervousness to a panic attack.

Opiates for example could theoretically fight "anxiety" in several ways, one of which being their depressant effect which would suppress the release of PSNS NT's and the anxiety response in general. Another would be the ability opioid have to induce euphoria. Many people describe feeling untouchable, like everything is right in the world etc. Why would somebody feel anxious if everything is right in the world?

Ask yourself if your anxiety stems from thoughts and feelings or if it is purely a physiological reaction. Some people describe their social anxiety as feeling that they are always being judged, that people are thinking about them etc. This would describe anxiety in terms of a behavioral response, the best long term solution would be to manage the route of those feelings of judgment and to practice those techniques. In such a case as this, Benzo's for example, will work to prevent the bodies physiological response to the stimulus of fear you are giving yourself but without the euphoria the thoughts would still be there.

Other types of anxiety can be completely irrational. Me for example, I am deathly afraid of heights, even if I see them in a movie or think about them it is an immediate reaction, my hands tingle, my heart rate increase and I feel like my veins are being shocked. Even in the face of heights where this is absolutely no reasonable risk associated with them, such as through a pane of glass in a tall building or a movie I was still had incredible anxiety over it despite my ability to completely logically realize that there was no danger associated with it. Even after rock climbing for years I still haven't gotten any better with it. In such a case as this, theoretically, an anxiolytic benzodiazepam would help to ease the irrational physiological response my body has towards heights.

I have noticed that NT's can have a significant effect on anxiety. I was feeling good, healthy and not depressed or anxious when I was prescribed Dextroamphetamine for ADHD, I find it very very helpful, however when I decide take a day off after taking a high dose (relative to Rx doses, maybe 20mg instead of 15mg) I feel quite anxious and worry about things I felt fine about the day before and am generally much more irritable.

I would look into the route of your anxiety before you decide to take your DOC as a long term medication and before deciding the future of your medication regime. Adding to that I would like to say that neurontin has never been proven to help depression or anxiety over a placebo, I have known several people who have had it prescribed and of 4 people only one noticed any kind of benefit to it, everyone else said it was like a sugar pill. The girl who had a reaction to it was also on a lot of other meds including mood stabilizers etc due to an absolutely horrific past, but that is irrelevant to this thread.

Opiates also inhibit pituitary function, and abuse can lead to permanent or long term damage to the neuroendocrine system. Steroids are neuromodulator's that act on their own group of receptors separate from those that NT's modulate and can play a large role in anxiety, mood, depression etc. I would suggest getting an endocrine profile done to test and see if everything is adequate for your age. Your body produces well over 20 different steroids but it is really only important to test for:

LH
FSH
DHT
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Progesterone
Estradiol (E2)
Pregnenolone
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)
Adrenalcorticotropichormone (ACTH)
Cortisol
Prolactin

A Thyroid panel would also be useful.

This will tell you a whole lot, and I feel it is a significantly overlooked aspect of general health as well as mental health. If any problems appear, there is the possibility to fix them in a long term and sustainable way.
 
4chloro said:
Steroids are neuromodulator's that act on their own group of receptors separate from those that NT's modulate and can play a large role in anxiety, mood, depression etc. I would suggest getting an endocrine profile done to test and see if everything is adequate for your age. Your body produces well over 20 different steroids but it is really only important to test for:

LH
FSH
DHT
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Progesterone
Estradiol (E2)
Pregnenolone
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)
Adrenalcorticotropichormone (ACTH)
Cortisol
Prolactin

A Thyroid panel would also be useful.

This will tell you a whole lot, and I feel it is a significantly overlooked aspect of general health as well as mental health. If any problems appear, there is the possibility to fix them in a long term and sustainable way.
Click to expand...

This interests me greatly. Ive been trying to find out whether anxiety and or the flight or fight reaction is a mostly "learned" trait, or a physiological one?.
Can a taught behaviour eg: your responses to certain situations like a traumatic incident, or behaviour thats learned as a result of your parents teaching (monkey see, monkey do) change the brain chemistry associated with anxiety?........are you born this way, or do you learn anxiety?
 
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