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Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention

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Sweet jebus! How much curcumin did you take over that time span?
Curcumin can cause stomach problems and its MAO-A inhibition can cause hyperthermia in large doses with large doses of amphetamine (not really a issue with lower doses due to negligible 5ht release, and may actually lower body temp due to COX-2 inhibition). So that might explain your reaction if you also include the tyrosine potentiation.

It is considered medically dangerous to mix MAO-inhibitors and amphetamine. In practice, it can be and is done by some adventurous psychiatrists, but you should be aware that you are doing something most doctors would not be comfortable with.

Originally Posted by till101
so could some one sum up a nice neurotoxicty reduction stack ?
Keep in mind I'm not a doctor, please do your own research and titrate the doses as you see fit.

If any doctor claimed to know the answer to that, he'd be lying. This whole thing is way out in speculative territory. There is not going to be a clinical recommendation.
 
It is considered medically dangerous to mix MAO-inhibitors and amphetamine. In practice, it can be and is done by some adventurous psychiatrists, but you should be aware that you are doing something most doctors would not be comfortable with.

If any doctor claimed to know the answer to that, he'd be lying. This whole thing is way out in speculative territory. There is not going to be a clinical recommendation.

Curcumin is a weak reversible inhibitor as opposed to the potent irreversible ones most often used clinically, I also said to start the dosage out quite low so that it wouldn't be as likely to produce a adverse effect. This is educated speculation, but I do my work making sure that what I recommend is safe as far as probable or foreseeable reactions go.

But, out of curiosity what dosage of amphetamine do you take daily? I've got a hunch that PQQ might be more notable at higher doses (NOT RECOMMENDING HIGHER DOSES!).
 
I haven't had the opportunity to read through every post in this thread yet, however I've always been one to learn from what I do and sharing it is a necessity or else it becomes useless and selfish knowledge. I'm prescribed 20mg Adderall 3x day. After my wife was killed in a wreck last year, I needed it but wanted more so I turned to methamphetamine along with it. Added in 200mg of lamictal a day and 150mg of Effexor IR 2-4x day. I didn't take this combination for more than three weeks at a time, and only 5 times total. It became more than I could handle and be safe by any means of the word. I took 2-8mg of alprazolam and/or 1-6mg clonazepam for recovery and rest with Seroquel as needed.

I stopped all of that 3 months ago, and now stick with 1-3mg of clonazepam a day and 60mg of Adderall a day. I will be reading the rest of the posts in this thread later today and would like to recover as best I can from what I've done to myself. The 30mg l-amp and 30mg d-amp I get from Adderall everyday merely keeps me motivated enough to move around and stay agile. I was taking these two medications everyday for years before I did what I did. Would you be interested to know if this combination of chems you're studying help someone like myself?
 
This is a interesting topic you bring up and one that has been mentioned before. I mainly focus on prevention of amphetamine induced issues as its far easier to prevent than it is to fix them. I'll do a little looking around to see if there's much I can find that seems promising aside from the healthy lifestyle speech I always use.

I'd say that the stack I gave out a few posts ago would be a good place to start simply because it avoids the more exotic/expensive supplements and focuses on generally healthy activities.

I'll keep you all posted on this.

-EA

P.S.: My condolences about your wife. Also, if you can without reducing your quality of life, try and reduce the benzo dosage as it may cause more noticeable cognitive issues than your prescription dosage amphetamine.
 
Ok, i'm gonna start a 1week log to help provide anecdotal evidence, to help people out, and get help if anyone has any suggestions for me.

From March-June I was taking 20mg Adderal 2-3 times per week, and the euphoria was amazing, it was more then enough and I got a lot of stuff done in that time. College math class was a breeze- and up until then I hated math and considered myself very bad at it.

Anyways, around June, the euphoria started to subside and I was very cautious and aware of this as I didn't want to develop a high tolerance and eventually become dependent on the Adderal just to get to a basic level everyday. I was drinking a moderate amount of caffeine every day(also a stimulant) and drinking alcohol every 3 days or so... all 3 drugs which fatigue the body, but more importantly the adrenal glands... which I thought were responsible for the 'feelgood' and effects I was first getting when I started taking adderal in March.

I quit all 3 drugs cold turkey and actually withdrew for 2 weeks and got sick the week later. Headaches lasting 5+ hours, lower back muscle pains, and eventually a sickness which lasted a week. Bad stuff, I should have weened slowly. I think it was mostly due to the caffeine however, as I was taking it just about everyday for over a year id say. But the amps and alcohol definitely made it worse since I quit them all cold turkey.

Took it a few times in july after abstaining from all drugs for a month, and there was some euphoria, but it wasn't the same so I decided to quit even longer and wait until school started back up in late August. Have been taking 500mg of Magnesium for about a month now.

These are the supplements I take daily:

500mg Niacin(vasodilator, overall good for healthy blood and cardiovascular health)
100mg B-complex(contains all major B vitamins, all antioxidants which hopefully aide in preventing neurotoxicity)
Milk thistle supplement(helps the liver out a bit especially after alcohol nights)
500mg Magnesium(rumored to help tolerance and synergize with amps)

Here are some supplements I take a few times a week, but not everyday:

2g Inositol(supposed to help with dopamine replenishment)
2g L-carnitine(again, to aide neurotransmitter support and dopamine levels)
1g L-Tyrosine(another neurotransmitter aide, make sure to take on empty stomach free of proteins or it won't work)

I also have a pretty vigorous diet, I am always active and am very health conscious when it comes to food, haven't drank soda or eaten fast food in over 2 years *yay*. On my adderal days, this is what my schedule looks like:

8:00am - Wake up, make smoothie(blueberries, strawberries, bananas, walnuts, almonds, honey, cinnamon, almond milk or soy milk, pineapple). I also put 2 tablespoons of chia seeds into the smoothie, Chia seeds are VERY good for you, especially brain function, and contain more omega's then salmon and is very good for blood sugar levels and overall energy.

Today however, I ate a small salad before the smoothie, with lettuce, broccoli, cucumbers and celery. I don't expect you to eat salads every morning, its very hard to do this! Even I thought twice about it. I also had 10g of Spirulina(blended in water, if put in anything else it will completely kill the taste and not be worth it).

11:30 - take 1-2 tablespoons of Baking Soda in shot of water
12:00 - take 20mg of Adderal

I usually feel the effects of the come up within an hour.

This log will cover todays dose, my dose on saturday, and the following dose next monday. Today(8/24), I used 20mg of CORpharma adderal, and on saturday I will be using Barr adderal, to once and for all see if they compare differently. If they don't, i'll stick to Barr from now on since it's about half the price at my pharmacy. Assuming my curcumin comes in by then I will take 200-400mg of it as well prior to dosing. On Monday, I will take 20mg of Dexedrine which is equivalent to about 30mg of adderal. I will be comparing the two and seeing if Dexedrine is truly 'cleaner' as people claim it to be.

My goal here is to reduce neurotoxicity as much as possible, keep it as healthy as possible, and try to keep my dose at 20mg without the need for upping the dose to get the desired 'feeling'. Hopefully by only taking it 3 times a week and eating healthy foods and exercising I will be able to balance my dopamine levels and keep it at 20mg. Here's the log:

Wed(8/24)

8:30am - Ate typical smoothie listed above with small salad beforehand with 10g spirulina and taking all supplements.
11:30 - Took 2 tbsp of Baking Soda in water
12:00 - Took 20mg adderal
1:00pm - I feel it definitely, but no euphoria typical with the come up
5:00pm - Feeling a bit more jittery today and not as coordinated, dry mouth is definitely there.
5:30pm - Went for 4 mile run at beach and did some swimming and other stuff, run was a piece of cake and it was good to be outside.

analysis: Usually i'd be let down by these results but I must add that i've been kinda sick for the past 5 days, 3 of them with me sneezing uncontrollably for the entire day/night and the past 2 being very congested and generally just under the weather, though I feel fine apart from the congestion.

This is the first time I took adderal while feeling under the weather, I figured it would make me feel great once it kicked in but it may not be the case with Adderal, but again I simply don't know. I will definitely be 100% on saturday so I will hold off until then, today was a fluke in my book, although like I said the exercises today were a piece of cake but I never really felt amped, just focused enough to do it. Saturday will be interesting.

If there's any recommendations, i'm all ears but this has been my usual tid bits of dosing for the past 3-4 months of Adderal, and at 20mg I don't consider my tolerance too high especially since I only take it 2-3 times a week. I am not chasing a higher high, just trying to preserve what I had in the beginning, hopefully this will work!
 
Thank you for your interest in this area of research and for your P.S. comments. I've been prescribed clonazepam since November of 2006 and amphetamine salts since December of 2008. Taking both during the day is nearly a waste, benzo trumps amp. I only take it when it's time to rest and sleep. Amphetamines are powerful, extremely powerful, and I say this because it's like giving ones-self the power to turn happiness/joy/pleasure on and off instantly. Methamphetamine far more so than dextro and levo amphetamine, and anything stronger than methamphetamine, i.e. MDMA, MDA, PMA, turn ya on, break the on/off switch, and when they turn off it's because what they need to run is depleted. That makes them far less scary in my opinion. Not that they're better in any way however.

Again, thank you EA and I will keep you up to date with information.

Echo =o)
 
This is a interesting topic you bring up and one that has been mentioned before. I mainly focus on prevention of amphetamine induced issues as its far easier to prevent than it is to fix them. I'll do a little looking around to see if there's much I can find that seems promising aside from the healthy lifestyle speech I always use.

I'd say that the stack I gave out a few posts ago would be a good place to start simply because it avoids the more exotic/expensive supplements and focuses on generally healthy activities.

I'll keep you all posted on this.

-EA

P.S.: My condolences about your wife. Also, if you can without reducing your quality of life, try and reduce the benzo dosage as it may cause more noticeable cognitive issues than your prescription dosage amphetamine.


Thank you for your interest in this area of research and for your P.S. comments. I've been prescribed clonazepam since November of 2006 and amphetamine salts since December of 2008. Taking both during the day is nearly a waste, benzo trumps amp. I only take it when it's time to rest and sleep. Amphetamines are powerful, extremely powerful, and I say this because it's like giving ones-self the power to turn happiness/joy/pleasure on and off instantly. Methamphetamine far more so than dextro and levo amphetamine, and anything stronger than methamphetamine, i.e. MDMA, MDA, PMA, turn ya on, break the on/off switch, and when they turn off it's because what they need to run is depleted. That makes them far less scary in my opinion. Not that they're better in any way however.

Again, thank you EA and I will keep you up to date with information.

Echo =o)
 
I am a skeptic by nature, so I would tend to be resistant to the placebo effect. In fact, if there was some barely-noticeable improvement, I would be more likely to dismiss it than to attribute it to the supplement. But I was hoping for a clearly-distinguishable difference, something that clearly justified taking the expensive supplements. I didn't find one.

Is placebo effect really has something with being septic or not??
 
Took another 20mg of Adderal today, but BARR brand today. Same effect, i'm convinced that there is no difference in 'feeling' in BARR and CORPharma. Will try 20mg of Dexedrine tomorrow and compare results to adderal.
 
some new stuff from the beginning of this month.
if you have any questions, ask away!

schedule:

8/3
15:00 - 50mg. Vyvanse

8/4
01:00 - ~1/10 tab Lithium Orotate
02:00 - 5.0mg. Melatonin
12:30 - 100mg. Ubiquinol
15:00 - 50mg. Vyvanse

8/5
00:00 - 20mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol
01:40 - 5.0mg. Melatonin
15:00 - 50mg. Vyvanse

8/6
00:30 - ~75mg. Vyvanse, 40mg. PQQ, 100mg. Ubiquinol
10:45 - 30mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol
12:20 - 100mg. Vyvanse
17:45 - ~1/6 tab Lithium Orotate

8/7
02:50 - 40mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol
03:15 - 10mg. Melatonin
**[~41 hours awake at this point, followed by ~10 hours of sleep]**
13:40 - 10mg. PQQ, 100mg. Ubiquinol
13:45 - ~75mg. Vyvanse
17:40 - 50mg. Vyvanse
21:45 - 30mg. PQQ, 100mg. Ubiquinol

8/8
00:30 - 50mg. Vyvanse
01:00 - 100mg. Ubiquinol
02:10 - 50mg. Vyvanse
11:50 - 40mg. PQQ, 100mg. Ubiquinol
12:30 - 100mg. Vyvanse
13:30 - 50mg. Vyvanse

8/9
00:45 - 5.0mg. Melatonin
**[~36 hours awake at this point, followed by ~12.5 hours of sleep]**
14:15 - 30mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol
14:30 - 100mg. Vyvanse
15:45 - ~25mg. Vyvanse

8/10
00:50 - 40mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol
01:00 - 150mg. Vyvanse
10:00 - ~2/5 tab Lithium Orotate
13:10 - ~125mg. Vyvanse
20:15 - 300mg. Ubiquinol
21:25 - 1.70g. D-Ribose
21:55 - 5.0mg. Lithium Orotate
22:30 - 7.5mg. Melatonin

8/11
**[~35 hours awake at this point, followed by ~10 hours of sleep]**
12:30 - 200mg. Ubiquinol
13:00 - 150mg. Vyvanse

8/12
00:55 - 10.0mg. Lithium Orotate
01:30 - 10.0mg. Melatonin
**[11 hours sleep]**
13:30 - 50mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol
14:30 - 150mg. Vyvanse
15:30 - 50mg. Vyvanse, 1.7g. D-Ribose
17:30 - 2.55g. D-Ribose
19:55 - 50mg. PQQ, 100mg. Quinogel
23:10 - 2.0g. L-Arginine AKG

8/13
00:00 - 10mg. Lithium Orotate
00:25 - 5mg. Lithium Orotate
01:55 - 5.0mg. Melatonin
**[10 hours of sleep]**
13:20 - 40mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol
14:00 - ~25mg. Vyvanse (most recent time i used AMPH)

8/14
03:00 - 40mg. PQQ, 100mg. Ubiquinol
03:10 - 5.0mg. Melatonin
15:30 - 20mg. PQQ, 50mg. Quinogel
23:00 - 2.5mg. Melatonin
**[~12 hours of sleep]**

8/15
15:15 - 20mg. PQQ, 50mg. Quinogel

8/16
01:10 - 20mg. PQQ, 100mg. Ubiquinol
02:20 - 2.5mg. Melatonin
**[~12 hours of sleep]**
16:00 - 30mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol, 400mg. Shilajit

8/17
03:20 - 2.5mg. Melatonin
**[~12 hours of sleep]**
15:15 - 20mg. PQQ, 200mg. Ubiquinol, 400mg. Shilajit

8/18
00:45 - 20mg. PQQ, 50mg. Quinogel, 400mg. Shilajit


lots to share...
i am already close to fully functional on all levels; fatigue, memory/cognition issues, AD symptoms, irritability are all diminishing quickly.
ya know what's even greater than that? usually after that sort of AMPH usage, i experience several days (3-5) of severe anhedonia that gradually tapers off over the follow 2 weeks. Anhedonia experienced this time: nil!
the biggest news to report is the absence of PQQ from my regimen from early on 8/10 until mid-day on 8/12.
on 8/11, at 15:15 i started to experience hyperthermic-like symptoms (feeling hot, sweating, slight confusion, slight nausea). my temperature was 99.0* and then 99.2* later on that evening. with that said, my body temp. tends to run a bit high (around 99.0*).
also, from 8/11 - 8/13, a lot of the symptoms associated with AMPH-binge started to manifest or become more prominent. my anxiety shot through the roof, memory/cognition took a nose-dive, i became terribly socially awkward, terrible headache, vasoconstriction, increase in BP.
moderate hypo-mania as well (probably better described as dysphoric mania; i'm far too familiar with it during such circumstances). note the usage of the (relatively) high dosages of Lithium Orotate. it helped significantly.
i supplemented D-Ribose as well. as far as that's concerned, i have no idea why i did that. i think you can chalk that up to me being spun silly and thinking "if i don't have PQQ, i've gotta supplement something else!" idiotic.
anyway... all symptoms started to subside upon discontinuation of AMPH and the re-administration of PQQ.
 
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GREAT POST MAN!

As a side note, I'm doing a lot more reading on the tolerance prevention/ recovery side of things now. From what I gather the main effects of amphetamine withdrawal and/or long term use are a specific form of depression, loss of motivation, and loss of focus so these will be the areas I focus on the most.

But, for starters those interested in recovery from amphetamine use should probably stop using or attempt to reduce amphetamine dosages. Modafinil and methylphenidate seem to be perfectly acceptable drugs for replacing amphetamine and as they do not appear to cause significant intracellular changes may allow for a stronger chance of recovery. If one can function without a stimulant drug I'd recommend giving it a try.

Also, here's some interesting reading on anhedonia:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m622782177860qg2/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1080/10550490802019774/full
http://neuro.cjb.net/content/31/8/3095.short
 
I'm going to my doctor Sept. 2nd and I've been considering alternative medications in place of 20mg adderall 3x a day. I've tried adderall xr, vyvanse, focalin, dexedrine, dexedrine spansule, ritalin, and even adipex without a script for them just to see what their effectiveness would be, each taken over 5 days, and I'm thinking 10mg 2x a day of Dexedrine Spansule along with 20mg once a day of the adderall. EA I happen to be broke at the moment and haven't begun any type of regimen aside from my prescriptions. Adipex (phentermine) was something I tried our of curiosity as it's prescribed only for losing weight, but my sister quickly went from adipex to adderall and had never taken any type of -amine drug before. Curiosity aside, phentermine is relatively weak compared to ritalin and even more so compared to adderall, in my opinion. Once I talk with my doctor I will let you know what my daily regimen will be and also begin to keep a dosing schedule history to post here on your thread.

TC&GB [o<
Echo
 
I'm going to my doctor Sept. 2nd and I've been considering alternative medications in place of 20mg adderall 3x a day. I've tried adderall xr, vyvanse, focalin, dexedrine, dexedrine spansule, ritalin, and even adipex without a script for them just to see what their effectiveness would be, each taken over 5 days, and I'm thinking 10mg 2x a day of Dexedrine Spansule along with 20mg once a day of the adderall. EA I happen to be broke at the moment and haven't begun any type of regimen aside from my prescriptions. Adipex (phentermine) was something I tried our of curiosity as it's prescribed only for losing weight, but my sister quickly went from adipex to adderall and had never taken any type of -amine drug before. Curiosity aside, phentermine is relatively weak compared to ritalin and even more so compared to adderall, in my opinion. Once I talk with my doctor I will let you know what my daily regimen will be and also begin to keep a dosing schedule history to post here on your thread.

TC&GB [o<
Echo

I appreciate your willingness to experiment, but I'd have to say that it would be best to probably stay on a d-amphetamine based regime rather than trialling a phentermine based regime solely due to the risks in blood pressure and peripheral side effects. From what I gather you're dependent on d-amphetamine for some sort of ADHD related issue so I'd recommend you stick with approved ADHD meds. Simply slowly reducing your amphetamine consumption will probably have a positive effect over the long term as long as its done at a rate you're comfortable with.

Also, I tallied up the daily cost of a basic regime (multi, CoQ10, and a baby aspirin) using the lowest prices from a Canadian drug store (Shoppers Drugmart) and found it to be $0.79 a day if you buy in bulk. But, please follow your doctor's advice on the issue.
 
Well I took 20mg of Dexedrine yesterday along with my typical food/supplement regimen and didn't get the effect most people describe on dexedrine, in fact- the high lasted 12 full hours, and I took both pills at the same time... i was under the impression that the high was only about 5-6 hours long. Also, bad dry mouth... felt a bit more focused and less chatty and didn't have a strong urge to do anything very physical, I could have though... but just didn't. Will take 20mg adderal tomorrow and compare again since my last week dose of adderal was a fluke.
 
I would be more than willing to contribute to this thread in more detail if people are interested. I have been taking D-amphetamine (ADHD treatment) now for the past 6 years and I would say that only in the last year have I worked out the things I need to do in terms of finding the right dose & how that relates to tolerance reduction and prevention.
 
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