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Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention

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i have used Ubiquinol by itself within similar contexts in the past, just with lower doses and less frequency. here's my problem: i keep pretty thorough records/journals in regard to my drug and supplement use. i lost almost all of these files in a hard drive crash a few months ago; plain awfulness. anyway, without that data, i don't feel confident in saying much more than i found it beneficial. sorry i don't have more to offer than that. lastly, i have always taken PQQ with Ubiquinol.
 
Have you compared ubiquinol to regular CoQ-10? Does it matter which one you buy?
 
Thought I'd share this, it looks like PQQ and CoQ10 derivatives may also have some positive actions on cognition aside from preventing post amphetamine impairment.
Effect of pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) on mental status of middle-aged and elderly persons". Food Style 21 13 (7): 50–52. 2009.
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Hopefully some of the guys at M&M are willing to start their own discussion, I'd like to see their opinions on amphetamine tolerance and neurotoxicity reduction/prevention.

Also, in regards to curcumin it may have to be cycled or dosed on a non-daily manner depending on individual response to it stuff has a ridiculous half life in the brain. Also, it may upregulate CREB chronically but inhibit it acutely so please post what you notice if you decide to try it out.
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
Thought I'd share this, it looks like PQQ and CoQ10 derivatives may also have some positive actions on cognition aside from preventing post amphetamine impairment.
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Effect of pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) on mental status of middle-aged and elderly persons". Food Style 21 13 (7): 50–52. 2009.
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Food Style? What kind of a journal is that? ;)

It seems like you can always find retrospective studies providing suggestions that some or other dietary supplement has health benefits, but when they do the double-blind clinical trial the effect evaporates. So unless it's a gold-standard type of study, I treat it as highly suspect.
 
Haha I can't blame you for being skeptical, these tiny studies aren't usually the best places to look *casts disapproving look over at the racetam crowd* but all research has to start somewhere.

However, there is some info that does suggest that PQQ and CoQ10 may improve cognitive functioning and energy in some groups (and amphetamine users kind of fall into a few of them). Still, it would be nice if more formal studies were done on this kind of thing.
 
The thing is, you can find low-quality studies that demonstrate just about anything. A few years ago, ginkgo biloba was a supposed cognitive enhancer, but this is what the wikipedia entry says now:

In 2002 a long-anticipated paper appeared in JAMA titled "Ginkgo for memory enhancement: a randomized controlled trial." This Williams College study, sponsored by the National Institute on Aging rather than Schwabe, examined the effects of ginkgo consumption on healthy volunteers older than 60. The conclusion, now cited in the National Institutes of Health's ginkgo fact sheet, said: "When taken following the manufacturer's instructions, ginkgo provides no measurable benefit in memory or related cognitive function to adults with healthy cognitive function."[36]
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By the time it's published in JAMA, the bullsh*t has been stripped away, and the facts are laid bare that it doesn't do whatever it was claimed to do based on small, flawed studies. This cycle has been repeated any number of times with various herbs and vitamins. Vitamin E was supposed to do a heap of wonderful things, and to my knowledge, none of them panned out. There are always low-quality studies supporting the supposed benefits. That's why they take the time to do the big expensive study that disproves it. You start to realize that bias is pervasive. People really want to believe that these supplements work, and it takes a well-designed study to change some people's minds. Some people, of course, go on believing in them even after they've been debunked.

I think there are certain things about the human body that nature has already optimized to the max. The body can make its own antioxidants, so if more antioxidants provided some benefit, it would probably already be happening. Medicine has been most successful in cleaning up where nature has clearly failed, i.e. disease. Medicine has never found a way to improve upon good health (save for performance-enhancing drugs that come with toxic side effects).
 
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I bought some 15mg DXM liquidgels tonight and I took a couple with my Dexedrine. It seemed to possibly have a pleasant synergy, but it's still too early to say for sure. I have to say, if it feels at all like DXM, even with a slight improvement in the stimulation, I will probably abandon this experiment. I am sensitized to DXM from the few trips I've had, and I can feel it at very small doses. I don't want to feel that way all the time.

I went out looking for PQQ and ubiquinol at local stores. The ubiquinol was expensive everywhere I found it, and I just got blank looks when I asked about PQQ. So I ordered some PQQ off the internet, and I placed a bid on some ubiquinol on ebay. I'll report my findings.
 
I went ahead and bid on the ubiquinol anyway. There's nothing more annoying than having an experiment fail and not knowing whether it's because you took a shortcut and you need to redo it. I'd rather give it a full chance to work right off the bat. It's crying out for some scientifically-minded individual to do thorough comparisons between ubiquinol/ubiquinone, PQQ, Co-Q10, and PQQ + Co-Q10. Research materials can be hard to come by, I understand. The DEA probably would not be willing to provide access to samples of controlled substances for this kind of amateur research. If I had enough, I would be able to provide Dexedrine, but, unfortunately, my prescription is barely adequate as is. Does anyone want to send me samples of supplements, to augment my meager research budget? I promise to publish my results on this forum.
 
I like what you're getting at but please don't insinuate you'd mail amphetamine to someone, it might get some attention this thread doesn't need.
 
Could i use these supplements to reverse the damage done to my brain?
i wasnt using that hard, maybe 50mg adderall (10mgIR x5) every week or two for half a year (alright maybe thats a little hard :D)
and i would use alot of concerta, and ecstasy about once a month:\

anyways i seem to be suffering from Anhedonia
In psychology and psychiatry, anhedonia is defined as the inability to experience pleasure from activities formerly found enjoyable, e.g. hobbies, exercise, social interaction or sexual activity.
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i really just wanna be able to appreciate stuff more. ive started exersizing more often and eating better, but do you guys think these supplements would be of help? my doc wants me to be on Effexor and Lamictal but im afraid it would just set me back.

thanks in advance:)
 
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Fyasko. said:
Could i use these supplements to reverse the damage done to my brain?
i wasnt using that hard, maybe 50mg adderall (10mgIR x5) every week or two for half a year (alright maybe thats a little hard :D)
and i would use alot of concerta, and ecstasy about once a month:\

anyways i seem to be suffering from Anhedonia

i really just wanna be able to appreciate stuff more. ive started exersizing more often and eating better, but do you guys think these supplements would be of help? my doc wants me to be on Effexor and Lamictal but im afraid it would just set me back.

thanks in advance:)
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Now this is the million dollar question, while there has been little research into treating drug induced anhedonia in humans I'll try my best.

CoQ10 in its various forms and PQQ appear to have a strong effect against neurotoxicity and/or subjective impairment if predosed, however they also seem to upregulate mitochondrial function. Which, though there is a lack of research on the topic, I'd like to think is fairly central to the whole amphetamine tolerance/damage thing. So my thinking is that they might be worth a shot.

Curcumin from some of the reports I've read seems to mix well with low dose amphetamine but mainly enhances anxiety and duration with higher doses, it might have some beneficial effects due to stimulation of trophic factors but really there's once again no data on this. If memory serves it might have a antidepressant effect in mice which may or may not carry over to humans.

The whole magnesium and vitamin A,C,E, and D thing is mostly to avoid the possible effects of malnutrition in amphetamine users, but I'd pretty much recommend anyone to take a multivitamin.

Now, I'm not a big fan of SSRI's (they also seem contradicted in cases of MDMA induced depression) but I'm not a doctor, and I really don't know what the lamicital is for in your case (mood stabilizer?). However, low dose lithium might be of some benefit as it does upregulate several monoamine rate limiting enzymes and provide some mood stabilization, but you can at higher doses run into lithium's abundant side effects.

Diet, sunlight, and exercise are the biggest things in my opinion that are known to help with anhedonia so maybe you should try to incorporate more of them into your daily life. Also, I've read that modafinil might be useful in cases of stimulant induced depression so its worth a shot asking your doctor about it.

I'm currently sitting on a bunch of info on some very well researched compounds debating the ethics of releasing the information as it might further aggravate the overuse of antimicrobials. What are your guy's opinions on this conundrum?
 
^she prescribed the lamictal because "it improves your mood when you use it with another antidepressant"
i dont think she knows what shes talking about tho haha. but thanks for the reply:)
 
Fyasko. said:
^she prescribed the lamictal because "it improves your mood when you use it with another antidepressant"
i dont think she knows what shes talking about tho haha. but thanks for the reply:)
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Sounds like the ad for Seroquel XR 8(

Try asking her about trying a "lifestyle and diet change" to see what she says and if she seems receptive maybe show her this thread. It might be a good way of getting a professional opinion on it, or just a quizzical look if they don't really know cellular biology.

I don't know if you're just suffering from anhedonia or full out suicidal depression IRL, so perhaps it would be best to run all this past your doctor. But, working out, a multivitamin, and CoQ10 (softgel only!) would look like a good safe place to start.
 
I've been doing some more reading on other mood stabilizers such as valproate and most of them seem to act as histone deacetylase inhibitors which might be a interesting area to research. But, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T USE THEM IF THERE IS ANY CHANCE OF PREGNANCY.

Other than that the antibiotic I've been looking at is minocycline, but please unless it is already prescribed to you for a unrelated condition do not seek it out. Overuse of antibiotics is a big enough problem and I don't want to make it worse.
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
Sounds like the ad for Seroquel XR 8(

Try asking her about trying a "lifestyle and diet change" to see what she says and if she seems receptive maybe show her this thread. It might be a good way of getting a professional opinion on it, or just a quizzical look if they don't really know cellular biology.

I don't know if you're just suffering from anhedonia or full out suicidal depression IRL, so perhaps it would be best to run all this past your doctor. But, working out, a multivitamin, and CoQ10 (softgel only!) would look like a good safe place to start.
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would CoQ10 be worth the money? it looks fairly expensive.
and im thinking about using St. Johns wort to upregulate my serotonin receptors, do you think that'd help? or should i be focusing on the dopamine system...

theres just this feeling of worthlessness & depression im experiencing.
i miss having emotions, and fun.
 
CoQ10 is obviously good for cardiovascular health. I take it, altho i can't say that i notice any cognitive effects of any kind. It definitely seems to reduce hypertension tho

Not surprisingly, lithium orotate seems to block the mood-lifting/altering effects of amphetamines, IME

atm i really like theanine, altho medium+ doses tend to diminish amphetamine-euphoria, for me... so i usually supplement the theanine before sleeping

I haven't noticed anything noteworthy with curcumin, altho i've never taken large doses of the stuff. Certain extracts of passiflora (high-potency, low doses) seem to add a type of antidepressant effect to the amphetamine experience.. Tho for obvious reasons, i don't recommend this supplement for daily co-concomitant use. Personally, i only use 100mg of the stuff to sleep, 2-3 days a week max.. leaving 8-9 hours between dosing the passiflora and d,l-amphetamine

Currently i'm looking into strontium as an alternative to calcium-supplementation. Lately i've been drinking San Pellegrino mineral water, which contains trace amounts of strontium (and magnesium, lithium, silica and others...).. Tho i hope to be able to get a hold of some strontium supplements - which according to one source, are in fact available in North America -- unlike strontium ranelate (available by prescription only in the UK and parts of Europe):

Novel Study Confirms Strontium Ranelate's Bone-Forming Benefits
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/739683

EDIT: OK duh, a quick look through my catalogs points me to several strontium (citrate) supplements available to me - from two reputable labs in fact. Altho these aren't available to the general public, i see strontium citrate supps on the popular supplement sites as well..

Cheers
 
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^Well i can say that it does keep me unusually level-headed and even-tempered. This mood-stabilizing effect increases with dosage increase.. Past a certain point (200mg+) it's like being on autopilot tho, which makes it impossible to get anything done/think properly... Kind of like being stuck in a time-warp i guess.. 10hrs feels like 2 minutes

So it enhances amphetamines in that respect - my ability to concentrate and essentially eliminate any source of distraction with little to no conscious effort. I guess in that sense, it may indirectly improve task-performance.. by further minimizing potentially distracting thoughts/feelings/stimuli. As for motivation, i don't really feel that.. It's more like once i start doing something i become motivated to finish it.. but there is no initial motivation to do it.. if that makes sense.. IOW, there is no unnatural urge/push to engage in some activity/task like one may expect in amphetamine behavior

As to some other marked effects; an adderall (IR) dose will last e.g 6-7hrs instead of 3-4hrs like before. I also don't comedown/crash anymore.. The amp-effects just sort of fade away over several hours, with no post-dose depression, anxiety or fatigue.. Staying up is no problem but sleep comes just as easily if i lie down, relax and close my eyes for a few minutes

Hope that helps, even if it isn't the most informative post :)
 
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