Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention

[JohnQ]

Hey all,
I take 40mg of dextroamphetamine a day and found this post very helpful.

Lately i've been taking magnesium to prevent tolerance (800 mg at first and now 400mg). I found these studies and I want to know more about the dosages/results so I have a better idea of how the combo is effecting me.

Can anyone who has access to any of these journals help me out by posting relevent portions of these articles? And better still, if someone could e-mail me a copy of any of them that would be awesome.

Mark E. Schmidt, Markus J.P. Kruesi, Josephine Elia, Breck G. Borcherding, Ronald J. Elin, J.M. Hosseini, Kathleen E. McFarlin, Susan Hamburger, Effect of dextroamphetamine and methylphenidate on calcium and magnesium concentration in hyperactive boys, Psychiatry Research, Volume 54, Issue 2, November 1994, Pages 199-210, ISSN 0165-1781, DOI: 10.1016/0165-1781(94)90007-8.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...65178194900078)

Sari E. Izenwasser, Katia Garcia-Valdez, Kathleen M. Kantak, Stimulant-like effects of magnesium on aggression in mice, Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior, Volume 25, Issue 6, December 1986, Pages 1195-1199, ISSN 0091-3057, DOI: 10.1016/0091-3057(86)90111-5.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...65178194900078)

Kathleen M. Kantak, Lydia K. Adlerstein, Enhancement of apomorphine and l-amphetamine-induced behaviors by magnesium, Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior, Volume 36, Issue 1, May 1990, Pages 29-33, ISSN 0091-3057, DOI: 10.1016/0091-3057(90)90120-7.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...91305790901207)

 

[LSDMDMA&AMP]

Anhedonia occurs in hardcore methheads after years of addiction, i guarantee you dont have it Fyasko.
methylphenidate isn't a neurotoxin or a releasing agent (and therefore wouldn't be able to cause anhedonia i'd think, one of the incredibly smart people should probably verify that though) and MDMA once a month isn't gonna kill your brain to the point of getting anhedonia or however its spelled...i thought it happens to people when they were addicted to (specifically/mainly) methamphetamine for a long time/a few years...

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Anhedonia occurs in hardcore methheads after years of addiction, i guarantee you dont have it Fyasko.
methylphenidate isn't a neurotoxin or a releasing agent (and therefore wouldn't be able to cause anhedonia i'd think, one of the incredibly smart people should probably verify that though) and MDMA once a month isn't gonna kill your brain to the point of getting anhedonia or however its spelled...i thought it happens to people when they were addicted to (specifically/mainly) methamphetamine for a long time/a few years...

Any of those drugs can cause anhedonia in very sensitive individuals, but MPH should be the least likely of them. MDMA toxicity is something I won't get into lest I turn this into a flame war, but suffice to say its pretty bitching at causing depression in a certain population.

Anhedonia in this case may just be due to psychological/lifestyle factors and exacerbated by drug use, but (s)he seems to be looking at positive lifestyle changes so lets see how that works out for them.

JohnQ, in regards to your links: the first one is one of several studies showing that amphetamine use disrupts electrolyte concentrations through several mechanisms.

And, as far as the second and third study goes I've never heard of that kind of response to magnesium so I'd be interested in getting the full text too. The third one may be due to enhanced DA receptor activity due to reduced NMDA activity. But, thats just a best guess.

 

[kaiba]

I've bought a magnesium supplement (I take Dexedrine IR). When's the best time to take them (morning/night or both?)? Take them with or without food? What's the best dose?

 

[Gormur]

theres just this feeling of worthlessness & depression im experiencing.
i miss having emotions, and fun.

what you describe is feelings (emotions) albeit negative, but feelings nonetheless. you sound depressed but at least you recognize that and can articulate how you feel

with anhedonia, you experience a sense of detachment from everything, including yourself. everything is transparent. whether of dream or reality, it all seems the same

 

[Fyasko.]

Anhedonia occurs in hardcore methheads after years of addiction, i guarantee you dont have it Fyasko.
methylphenidate isn't a neurotoxin or a releasing agent (and therefore wouldn't be able to cause anhedonia i'd think, one of the incredibly smart people should probably verify that though) and MDMA once a month isn't gonna kill your brain to the point of getting anhedonia or however its spelled...i thought it happens to people when they were addicted to (specifically/mainly) methamphetamine for a long time/a few years...

ok

today i'm picking up curcumin, CoQ10, magnesium glycinate (taurate maybe?) and 90mg of adderall (nine 10mg IR)
i'll report back on the supplements' effects

 

[OC4ME]

Ok, I have read a lot of threads over the past years, this one is probably my favorite. I have been taking adderall off and on for 5 - 6 years now. I have been taking it daily 40mg/day all of 2010, 40-60mg/day in 2011. Needless to say sometimes it can get out of hand. I am add but I also like to abuse the chit out of adderall on the weekends. Quit drinking in 2007, quit opiates in april, this is about all I have left that I can still enjoy within reason. Because of this forum and the self-apparent physical/cognitive weardown caused by too much amp, I decided to give some of these supplements a try, and 2 weeks later, I have to say that I feel better than I have in a while!

Daily Regimen:
7:00 AM: Omega 3,6,9; Vitamin B-12; Multivitamin; Chromium Picolinate; Baby Aspirin
10-20mg/adderall
11:00 AM: Omega 3,6,9 (drink 2 full glasses of water)
10-20mg/adderall
3:00 PM: 10-20mg/adderall & baby aspirin (drink 2 full glasses of water)
9-10 PM: 5mg melatonin; 100mg CoQ10; Omega 3,6,9; 500mg Vitamin C; Full Aspirin

I can tell that taking the Omega's along with a lot of water makes me feel like my brain is "lubed" vs the unlubed feeling you get when you have taken too much and you feel like your brain/head is hot. The Aspirin has always helped me feel great when I take adderall and now that I have added the CoQ10 I have really started feeling "clean" or well rested or like sleep has just reset me every morning, that is the best I can explain it.

All i know is that this regimen has made me feel noticeably better, and in my opinion that means it is working. I would like to note that taking st. john's wort in any amount with adderall is extremely horrible. Also, i have tried all kinds of crap that hasn't worked, and the keep it simple stupid of the CoQ10 with the regular stuff your body needs is a major plus over not taking it. So until something is proven, I can at least say you will be healthier and most likely feel better if you try some of these supplements, and in the long haul who knows, maybe the neuroprotective effects of these supplements are proven and you saved your brain too. Note: I would add some magnesium to the mix, but don't see the reason for it at this point, as the efficacy of my dosage seems to stay constant.

looking forward to reading more...

 

[Fyasko.]

alright guys,
60mg of adderall today, i wrote out a trip report.
i plan on typing it out tonight, but what are the specifics you guys are looking for?
supplements i used: curcumin, magnesium, liquid multivitamin with CoQ10, VitaminC and Tyrosine.

 

[foliocb]

Was the curcumin effects noticeable? Also, did you take your L-Tyrosine on an empty stomach? I heard that if you take it with any protein in your stomach it pretty much makes it worthless since the Tyrosine will bind to the proteins and not get into your blood/brain.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

If you look at the previous experience reports they're pretty well formatted. I'm personally looking for doses, times, and subjective notes for anything from "I feel better" to "BP was x/y, pupils were constricted, memory seems improved...". Also, don't be afraid to mention negatives and positives if there's anything work noting.

 

[till101]

so could some one sum up a nice neurotoxicty reduction stack ?

 

[Fyasko.]

well i took some Tyrosine when i first woke up along with a multivitamin shot. had a small meal.
1:00pm - took some curcumin along with tums
1:30pm - take 2 adderall with 200mg magnesium
1:55pm - might be placebo but i think im feeling it, stomach has butterflies (which i never get) take another 2 adderall with another 200mg magnesium & another curcumin capsule
2:20pm - idk if it was because of the curcumin, but my heart rate was extremely high. i was sweating more than i have ever before, i had mild-moderate bruxism. im feelin great, remembering why i love amphs so much :D
2:30pm - i actually experienced some dysphoria. maybe i had too much adderall (im a lightweight) but i felt realy agitated and irritable, got the idea that taking more adderall/magnesium would make me feel better

for the next 90minutes (2:30-4:00) i drew neurotransmitter&drug molecules, cleaned my room, texted aaalmost everyone in my phone haha. i had an extreme body and head high. i have never sweated so much before. bruxism is moderate-severe.

at around 4:30pm i began to came down, it might have been the magnesium that made me relax but i just kept telling myself that i'm just coming down, and it will pass. take one more curcumin capsule.
from then on i just kinda wandered around my house, i have a feeling i took too many tums or curcumin caps because:
1- my stomach hurt worse than ever, i honestly was contemplating asking my parents to take me to the ER because i was afraid i had fucked up my liver. my stomach wouldnt stop making noises, i had diahrea, and was fatigued.
2- even if i wasnt doing anything, i would still be sweating. it was emberassingly odd. and at around 9pm i went to the park to have a grit and about 2 minutes after smoking it, i kid you not, almost crapped my pants because my stomach was in so much pain, im DRENCHED in sweat.
/rant :D

imo the curcumin significantly increased my heart rate. i dont normally get a body high so it might've been responsible for that. and im faaairly certain its what caused me to sweat so much. but the main benefit i felt was the vasodilation. i didnt get that vasoconstricted headache feeling towards the end. honestly i wasnt sure what to put
the magnesium didnt help much with the bruxism, but i didnt get the desire to move my legs up and down repeatedly (hard to explain, but it always happens when i tweak8) )

i went to bed at about 1AM that night, i wanted to make sure that my stomach was gonna be alright so i stayed up and drank different tea's, studied and smoked weed. today i feel alright, i have 0 desire to do anything and still have 'the runs' but i think itll get better.

Was the curcumin effects noticeable? Also, did you take your L-Tyrosine on an empty stomach? I heard that if you take it with any protein in your stomach it pretty much makes it worthless since the Tyrosine will bind to the proteins and not get into your blood/brain.

i took the tyrosine along with my multivitamin shot on an empty stomach, then had a small meal bout an hour later

 

[nj754]

I have experimented with mixing PQQ in doses up to about 30mg with my usual dose of dextroamphetamine. I didn't notice any difference.

I am a skeptic by nature, so I would tend to be resistant to the placebo effect. In fact, if there was some barely-noticeable improvement, I would be more likely to dismiss it than to attribute it to the supplement. But I was hoping for a clearly-distinguishable difference, something that clearly justified taking the expensive supplements. I didn't find one.

 

[melange]

tl;dnr

cool your head, stay hydrated, take antioxidants, gaba and or nmda drugs help

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

well i took some Tyrosine when i first woke up along with a multivitamin shot. had a small meal.
1:00pm - took some curcumin along with tums
1:30pm - take 2 adderall with 200mg magnesium
1:55pm - might be placebo but i think im feeling it, stomach has butterflies (which i never get) take another 2 adderall with another 200mg magnesium & another curcumin capsule
2:20pm - idk if it was because of the curcumin, but my heart rate was extremely high. i was sweating more than i have ever before, i had mild-moderate bruxism. im feelin great, remembering why i love amphs so much :D
2:30pm - i actually experienced some dysphoria. maybe i had too much adderall (im a lightweight) but i felt realy agitated and irritable, got the idea that taking more adderall/magnesium would make me feel better

for the next 90minutes (2:30-4:00) i drew neurotransmitter&drug molecules, cleaned my room, texted aaalmost everyone in my phone haha. i had an extreme body and head high. i have never sweated so much before. bruxism is moderate-severe.

at around 4:30pm i began to came down, it might have been the magnesium that made me relax but i just kept telling myself that i'm just coming down, and it will pass. take one more curcumin capsule.
from then on i just kinda wandered around my house, i have a feeling i took too many tums or curcumin caps because:
1- my stomach hurt worse than ever, i honestly was contemplating asking my parents to take me to the ER because i was afraid i had fucked up my liver. my stomach wouldnt stop making noises, i had diahrea, and was fatigued.
2- even if i wasnt doing anything, i would still be sweating. it was emberassingly odd. and at around 9pm i went to the park to have a grit and about 2 minutes after smoking it, i kid you not, almost crapped my pants because my stomach was in so much pain, im DRENCHED in sweat.
/rant :D

imo the curcumin significantly increased my heart rate. i dont normally get a body high so it might've been responsible for that. and im faaairly certain its what caused me to sweat so much. but the main benefit i felt was the vasodilation. i didnt get that vasoconstricted headache feeling towards the end. honestly i wasnt sure what to put
the magnesium didnt help much with the bruxism, but i didnt get the desire to move my legs up and down repeatedly (hard to explain, but it always happens when i tweak8) )

i went to bed at about 1AM that night, i wanted to make sure that my stomach was gonna be alright so i stayed up and drank different tea's, studied and smoked weed. today i feel alright, i have 0 desire to do anything and still have 'the runs' but i think itll get better.



i took the tyrosine along with my multivitamin shot on an empty stomach, then had a small meal bout an hour later

Sweet jebus! How much curcumin did you take over that time span?
Curcumin can cause stomach problems and its MAO-A inhibition can cause hyperthermia in large doses with large doses of amphetamine (not really a issue with lower doses due to negligible 5ht release, and may actually lower body temp due to COX-2 inhibition). So that might explain your reaction if you also include the tyrosine potentiation.

If you'd be willing to trial a lower dose with a much lower curcumin dose that might be more informative for ADHD dosages, but I can totally understand if you don't want to.

Hope you feel better soon

-EA

 

[Fyasko.]

Sweet jebus! How much curcumin did you take over that time span?
Curcumin can cause stomach problems and its MAO-A inhibition can cause hyperthermia in large doses with large doses of amphetamine (not really a issue with lower doses due to negligible 5ht release, and may actually lower body temp due to COX-2 inhibition). So that might explain your reaction if you also include the tyrosine potentiation.

If you'd be willing to trial a lower dose with a much lower curcumin dose that might be more informative for ADHD dosages, but I can totally understand if you don't want to.

Hope you feel better soon

-EA

haha it was, ehh 4 or 5 caps, 300mg/ea. the bottle said take 1-2/day so i thought 3-4 wouldnt hurt.
is that what caused my stomach pains & sweating?!?! that would make so much sense!

i'd be more than happy to try it at ADHD doses.
i dont have ADHD so im not sure how that would work, is it just looking for focus & attention?

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

so could some one sum up a nice neurotoxicty reduction stack ?

Keep in mind I'm not a doctor, please do your own research and titrate the doses as you see fit.

- ~250mg elemental magnesium at bed
- ~1-5mg sublingual melatonin 3 hours before bed
- Stay hydrated, preferably with high quality fruit juices (such as 100% blueberry)
- Eat a balanced diet rich in dark fruits and vegetables.
- Avoid overheating, and when working out stay hydrated
- 81mg ASA (baby aspirin) and/or curcumin at a self titrated dose.
- Coenzyme Q10 at 100mg/day in a softgel or oil based formulation (preferably taken with food)
- Avoid sleep deprivation
- A good multivitamin, or at the very least vitamins A,C,E, and D as well as selenium at a significant portion of the RDA value.
- Keep your dose as low as possible.

That should be a solid base for daily use with moderate to higher end (20-35ish mg) ADHD doses. Its probably best to avoid exotic supplements like PQQ and lithium (though lithium doses under 8mg/day seem quite safe) unless you're taking recreational doses or +35mg d-amphetamine doses as for all we know there could be some freak long term side effect (which is fairly unlikely but you get what I mean). Lifestyle choices also play a massive role in toxicity as diet and exercise or lack thereof affect many neurological systems in addition to the body's natural antioxidant defences.

As far as preventing toxicity at +35mg or recreational doses that's a whole different ball game, and is something I'm working on. PQQ and low dose lithium have shown promise in some users who are taking higher doses, but there's plenty of other approaches we haven't touched on and personal chemistry to consider as well.

Hope this helps.

-EA

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

haha it was, ehh 4 or 5 caps, 300mg/ea. the bottle said take 1-2/day so i thought 3-4 wouldnt hurt.
is that what caused my stomach pains & sweating?!?! that would make so much sense!

i'd be more than happy to try it at ADHD doses.
i dont have ADHD so im not sure how that would work, is it just looking for focus & attention?

More or less focus, attention, and motivation. If you note any change in a low dose's effect then we might be on to something, curcumin looks good on paper but it takes actual experience reports to know if its worth using.

For what its worth I can't touch the stuff or Indian food in general without getting killer heartburn =/

 

[foliocb]

i ordered curcumin and should get it by the end of the week. I only take about 20mg of adderal 2-3 times a week and I will do some experimenting to see if curcumin helps at all.

 

[Fyasko.]

More or less focus, attention, and motivation. If you note any change in a low dose's effect then we might be on to something, curcumin looks good on paper but it takes actual experience reports to know if its worth using.

For what its worth I can't touch the stuff or Indian food in general without getting killer heartburn =/

Sounds good, sorry i didnt know how to dose with the adderall.
ill use a low dose ,10mg IR and then see whats up. probably wont be til next week though.