Curious Questions.

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Would a blind man (never having experienced sight) experience visuals while on psychadelics?

How would early, small doses of psychadelics affect a child's mind?

Could you permanently alter thought patterns to the extent of experiencing a permanent paradigm shift? (Not HPPD, but a lasting cognitive alteration involving sober hallucinations.)

 

[3rd_I_blind]

Would a blind man (never having experienced sight) experience visuals while on psychadelics?

I doubt someone that never has experienced eyesight can identify a visual as being a visual. Also, the visual cortex will likely undergo functional neuroplastic changes in someone that is born blind. In someone that has lost eyesight after birth, I believe it is very well possible to experience visuals after taking psychedelics.

How would early, small doses of psychadelics affect a child's mind?

Severely negative.

Could you permanently alter thought patterns to the extent of experiencing a permanent paradigm shift? (Not HPPD, but a lasting cognitive alteration involving sober hallucinations.)

This is possible and not even really rare. When you think of it, there's only a small difference between a lucid dream and a sober pseudohallucination.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

But visuals, while often being distortions of sensory input, can also be generated entirely by the mind. I don't imagine that a man born blind would see effects like breathing or glitter or enhancement of color, but what about CEV journeys?

'Severely negative' in what way? Like, I'm interested in the effects on perception and neurological development specifically.

Well, I am schizophrenic, and this to me is like a shift in my thought system's paradigm and functioning. I do not believe it is a disease, rather just an uncommon and altered way of processing information and input. I mean something similar to this, but without an "illness".

 

[artic]

Here is an article that was originally posted in a thread about why we see geometric visuals.

http://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue53/features/hallucinations/index

I notice you posted in that thread, so you may have seen it.

In this article, the author states that these visuals occur in the visual cortex, so as long as a blind person does not have damage to their brain they should perceive CEV type effects.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Yeah, that's why I have been thinking about this! Haha, I just keep thinking about what kind of CEVs they might have.. I can't imagine!

 

[Flickering]

Well I think 3rd I Blind already alluded to the first part there. Someone blind their whole life would not be able to recognise visuals even if they did experience them. I think you're right, though - with an intact visual cortex, even a blind person might be able to 'see' on psychedelics. It's worth noting that some blind people who've had near death experiences have been able to see while 'out of body'. You should look into it.

A young child's brain is extremely malleable, and meddling with it using psychedelics is a very bad idea. Giving alcohol to a child can cause permanent severe brain damage. When I was in primary school, one of my classmates was a boy who'd drunk his dad's beer at the age of two; he was heavily impaired. Hallucinogens are typically less toxic than alcohol, but the psychological experience is a lot heavier, so even with a low dose you'd probably get a lot of potential mental disorders in the works. I hypothesise that the condition 'micropsia' or 'Alice in Wonderland Syndrome' can develop in childhood if parents give the child DXM-containing cough syrup. Even at TINY doses, it has been known to trigger episodes of AiWS in children. On a somewhat related note, while magic mushrooms are barely toxic to adults, they have been known to kill children.

If I may, what is it like to be schizophrenic? How does it affect your hallucingoenic experiences - or do you not use drugs?

 

[3rd_I_blind]

But visuals, while often being distortions of sensory input, can also be generated entirely by the mind. I don't imagine that a man born blind would see effects like breathing or glitter or enhancement of color, but what about CEV journeys?

Are you familiar with Plato's analogy of the cave and the shadow people? Someone that is born blind might simply not be able to recognize anything as having a visual aspect. Or course they can just as well as anybody else experience internal journeys while under influence of psychedelics, but I doubt it is even possible for them to describe those journeys in a way that we can apprehend what they actually experience. Just as you can explain how the color red looks for ten years, but a blind person will never know what you mean exactly.

'Severely negative' in what way? Like, I'm interested in the effects on perception and neurological development specifically.

Effects on perception sounds a bit subjective from my point of view, but neurological development can be severly impaired. Serotonin is a very important regulatory factor in neurological development, and if I recall correctly especially the 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptor play a large part in this (..and these are exactly the receptors where most classic hallucinogens exert their effect).

Well, I am schizophrenic, and this to me is like a shift in my thought system's paradigm and functioning. I do not believe it is a disease, rather just an uncommon and altered way of processing information and input. I mean something similar to this, but without an "illness".

I understand what you mean, but the factual definition of a 'disease' is exactly that: An uncommon or altered way in which the body reacts to something. Good for you that you don't feel this as an impairment, and it is really shameful that a lot of people have negative connotations whenever there is talk about a 'disease'. But your own definition goes really well with that of a disease.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

I will definitely check out more info on blind hallucinations.

I of course am not considering testing like this! Ha, just curiosity is all.
I can understand the adverse effects caused by poison substances like alcohol. Even mushrooms are really just poisons in your body..
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that DXM cough syrups have an effect in developing AiWS.
But perhaps, given a therapeutic ranging dose (taking into account the age of subject, and accordingly adjusting dosage) along with a stimulating environment and proper guidance, could a youth benefit from such intense psychological trips? It's not a very uncommon practice for native peoples around the world to initiate youth into adulthood (usually around puberty, when they're still considered children by Western civilization) with entheogenic or shamanic trials and experiences.

In my personal experience, my schizophrenia exacerbates trips, but in a different way. I don't notice any real differences in visuals. But I am more prone to "trippy" thoughts, and I also experience more pronounced irrationality and disorganization of thought processes. When I'm sober, I can get pretty delusional.
Interestingly, I honestly believe that my psychadelic, dissociative, and deliriant experiences help me better recognize, navigate, and control my schizophrenic symptoms.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Yeah, I guess I'll never know haha. The challenge of trying to describe the indescribable due to complete ignorance.. That would be so hard.

You've got a point with the role of Seratonin. Do you think it's possible, though, to alter perception, causing distortion or hallucination, without a state of HPPD or AiWS?

Is that the legitimate medical definition of disease??? If that's really the medical definition, why aren't all forms of thought systems deviating from the typical considered diseases?

 

[3rd_I_blind]

Interestingly, I honestly believe that my psychadelic, dissociative, and deliriant experiences help me better recognize, navigate, and control my schizophrenic symptoms.

There's a lot of (pseudo)scientific literature on this, pseudoscientific not having any negative connotation here. However, I believe psychedelic experiences will probably do most for the positive symptoms of schizophrenia, while doing nothing for or even exacerbating the negative symptoms.

If that's really the medical definition, why aren't all forms of thought systems deviating from the typical considered diseases?

Technically, I think there also has to be a mechanistical explanation to classify something as a disease. But if you keep in mind the explosive rise in people seeking councelling and psychological help, you could argue that it is more or less happening that almost all thought systems deviating from perfect are considered diseased and/or treatable.

 

[Flickering]

But perhaps, given a therapeutic ranging dose (taking into account the age of subject, and accordingly adjusting dosage) along with a stimulating environment and proper guidance, could a youth benefit from such intense psychological trips? It's not a very uncommon practice for native peoples around the world to initiate youth into adulthood (usually around puberty, when they're still considered children by Western civilization) with entheogenic or shamanic trials and experiences.

How young are you talking? In the 1950s, there were studies of experimental LSD treatment done on ten-year-old children who had been committed to psych wards. The results were very positive, until the research centre was closed down. This is a very sad read.

Here is a far more tragic story about LSD experimentation on children.

Here's a news story of a three-year-old accidentally ingesting a very heavy dose of LSD. Details were scant on whether he suffered permanent damage from the experience, but from the brief news report, he seemed to be having a normal enough experience (for a very high dose).

Anecdotally, I know a friend of a friend who was raised to be a shaman in South America. He was given brown brown (cocaine + gunpowder) and other things at the age of six. He is now severely fucked up.

In my personal experience, my schizophrenia exacerbates trips, but in a different way. I don't notice any real differences in visuals. But I am more prone to "trippy" thoughts, and I also experience more pronounced irrationality and disorganization of thought processes. When I'm sober, I can get pretty delusional.
Interestingly, I honestly believe that my psychadelic, dissociative, and deliriant experiences help me better recognize, navigate, and control my schizophrenic symptoms.

It's interesting, but not all that surprising. I can certainly see hallucinogenic experiences potentially helping with mental conditions. There's also the risk, as I'm sure you know, that they'll make things much, much worse. I'd be especially careful with deliriants in your case, but that's just me.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Yes. Positive symptoms are more blatantly affected, but negative symptoms seem to benefit more from the experience itself than by the processes of psychadelics. The insights I gain through my experiments help me to overcome apathy, anti-social behaviors, sociopathic thought patterns, and other negative symptoms I deal with.

I, sadly, agree with this. Aspberger's.. -.- And even things like depression! Back in my day, when you were sad, you were sad, not depressed; Maybe I should take some pills?? Just kidding, I am growing up in this generation ha. I'm only eighteen. But still, it applies. I think that all of the babble and drastic increases of psychological illnesses are scapegoating. Well, not all of course, but most. A central tenet of my personal philosophy is Self-Determination. This intrinsically conflicts with the idea of mental illness (separate from mental disease, which is physiological in some way ((neurology and the likes))).

 

[RobotRipping]

Could you permanently alter thought patterns to the extent of experiencing a permanent paradigm shift? (Not HPPD, but a lasting cognitive alteration involving sober hallucinations.)

When I first started psychedelics it was my intention to create a lasting change. Kind of wears off after a while and it's tough to tell how I would've turned out had I not used psychedelics but my mind is certainly more open than it used to be and I see things in a different way than I used to, not so much hallucinating, I see patterns and such when i close my eyes and things wave and move but those just seem to be minor alterations. What has really changed has been the way I think about things.

shit lost part of my post. For your second point check some of these old studies using LSD to treat children with severe mental disorders.

http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_abramson_1967.html

Comparatively large doses of LSD-25 and Sansert may be safely administered to autistic schizophrenic children for extended periods of time. Brain damage was not observed. Rather, improvement is reported.

There are others, pretty sure erowid has links to them.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Those were interesting articles. I was referring to children who are capable of understanding and utilizing the experiment they were going to experience, so definitely not toddlers. Tween aged, like 8 or 9 to puberty.

Incidentally, I'd say deliriants have helped me the most!

Also, I am beginning a long-term experiment when I receive my very large batch of potent psychadelic RCs for my treasure chest. I intend to make a permanent impression.
Someone mentioned somewhere here that they thought the lasting closed-eye patterns and distortions are simply your brain's increased creativity in filling voids left by inattention or attention on something else. I think this is correct.
I am more looking for a "Quality" change. Like, you know how you can tell when you're tripping, just by how it feels and the quality of hallucinations? I am interested in an analogous state in sobriety.

 

[Flickering]

For your second point check some of these old studies using LSD to treat children with severe mental disorders.

http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_abramson_1967.html

My own second link is the same study from a different angle. Bender was a monster. These tests were abhorrent.

Those were interesting articles. I was referring to children who are capable of understanding and utilizing the experiment they were going to experience, so definitely not toddlers. Tween aged, like 8 or 9 to puberty.

Well in that case, I can't say for sure, but I actually don't imagine there would be many adverse effects, certainly not severe ones. As far as the brain goes, eight years old is quite developed. Still would be a lot more receptive to lasting effects of traumatising experiences and neurotoxicity, though. But that's the case for anything, not just drugs. An adult who sees someone brutally stabbed to death and disemboweled is probably going to be deeply affected by it. But for an eight-year-old, it would have a far deeper effect on their psyche, which is still in development. Consider how powerful a bad salvia trip could be, and imagine what that would do to you if you were that young.

 

[Enter Galactic]

I want to know what a breakthrough DMT experience would be like for a blind person.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

As far as the brain goes, eight years old is quite developed.

I disagree here, the brain still develops until about 25 years of age. It is especially the more intricate parts of the brain, responsible for higher consciousness and moral considerations, that develops during the (post)pubescent years. There is no evidence psychedelics have a profound negative effect on this development, and it could easily be reasoned that their effects will be positive with respect to - for instance - alcohol consumption starting at age 16. I believe it is a very tough discussion wether or not it is ethically acceptable to dose people below the age of consent with any medicine, especially powerfull psychedelics.

Someone mentioned somewhere here that they thought the lasting closed-eye patterns and distortions are simply your brain's increased creativity in filling voids left by inattention or attention on something else. I think this is correct.

Being somewhat educated on the development of the brains, I can even assure you this is factually correct. This is also the explanation why all people experience the same geometric visuals, from several millenia ago until now. The visual cortex interprets incoming information as intricate patterns, which are exactly the kinds of patterns you will see if you close your eyes and focus (or are high on LSD ).

 

[Flickering]

I disagree here, the brain still develops until about 25 years of age.

Sure, but an eight-year-old's brain is fairly well developed. Considerably more than a two-year-old's. Same goes for psychological development. Now, as to the ethics of giving drugs to a minor, I certainly think there would need to be extenuating circumstances, such as a last resort of therapy. But as to whether it will have major damaging psychological / neurological effects, I would think children of that age would be fine (as long as they were given responsible doses). It's the much younger ones, whose are still learning the most fundamental things about the world, who would be at high risk.

And really, there's never any reason at all that they should be given such powerful substances.

I should say as a disclaimer to all this, I'm only guessing with all of this. So if you're a child counsellor, don't go giving your clients MDMA behind their parents' backs based on what I said. :D

I want to know what a breakthrough DMT experience would be like for a blind person.

Indeed! Let's try to find such a report / study.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

HAHAHAHA, no dosing kiddies, got it. (;
But yeah, I agree. I think that, psychologically if not neurologically, children are quite developed by the age of eight, even if they are ignorant. Lack of knowledge about stuff definitely doesn't qualify stupidity. I imagine psychadelic drug use would be, generally, beneficial for most people capable of utilization.

Too bad there's not braille internet (HA). We need blind people..

 

[3rd_I_blind]

We need blind people..

Well...once you go blind, you can never go back...or so they say.