Rolling too Much?

[thizzlam]

So This time last year for my 18th birthday my friend finally convinced me to try E. It was amazing, but i noticed my friends doing it to much and i didnt want to turn into the a "lost soul" as we call the kids who dose super high all the time every day. I did not want this too happen so every couple of months a messed around with it maybe a couple pills of so not 20 like my friends. Then i started getting into the candy flipping maybe four months ago and i was stuck on it. dosing every week or so, not really caring finally my i had a paranoid trip and i stoped with the lucy. Meet a cool raver chick(probally not the best idea) and starting dosong higher and mutlple days in row. It ended with a week long binge taking up to 15 pills and now im asking for help. Am i skrewd for the rest of my life or is there anything i can do to recorrect the damage, any supplemts or exersise i could do. i was thinking of going to a doctor but i though i would ask you guys first.

 

[NeighborMike]

Go to the doctor.

 

[Heh?!]

You're going to get a lot of responses from people who have been in the same boat as you. Fortunately I have not, but that also makes me a little less qualified to answer. The most important things are to eat healthy, very healthy, and get lots of exercise. Do activities that challenge your brain (word games, puzzles, anything of that sort), and do things or hang out with people you enjoy(even if you don't get the same enjoyment out of it at the moment, don't just hole up in your house and be a recluse). On second thought, the most important thing is to stay away from all drugs for a long time, meaning a year or more in most cases, and if you do ever decide to use MDMA again, space your rolls out at a minimum of 1 month, with 2-3 being better, but even longer than that being the best.

People recover, but it can be a long and challenging journey.




EDIT: If you are experiencing physical symptoms you should see a doctor and be completely honest with them. Be warned though, a lot doctors are actually quite uneducated on drugs (even simpler drugs like marijuana), and often will just prescribe you with an SSRI which just causes further down-regulation of your serotonin system.

 

[thizzlam]

Thanks for the info my back had been hurting as well as my muscles and head

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Sorry to hear another story like this.
I don't have time to write an extensive reply like I usually do.
I stumbled across this post and I couldn't just ignore it.

Looking into my post history will reveal a lot of information about what you are going through.
It may not be as serious as I suspect, but if it is you would benefit from some of the details I spent so much time contributing.

Here are some basics - the repeated dosing you describe is always the best way to destroy axons in the serotonin system.
In the prefrontal cortex, the axons are thin and fiber-like and they are the first to go. They also exhibit the least amount of recovery in the long-term.
However, there IS some recovery, even in the PFC.

But it takes a LONG time.
Think in terms of months, not days.
The brain does not recover in the same time period we experience life in.

TONS of research on ex-MDMA users agrees with a general timeline for recovery.
Even among heavy long-term users, reports of anxiety and depression normally stop around the one year mark.
Occasionally it can take 18 months.

This doesn't mean you are destined to follow this timeline - you might be lucky and recover within weeks to a few months.
But in my experience on BL, those that do not improve substantially in the first 2 months are very likely to follow the 1-1.5 year guideline.
It is very rare to hear of people going past 2 years, if you are that worried.

Many say that it 'never really goes away' but I find that many of these reports come from people still in the first 2-3 years of their recovery.
Regardless of who is speaking, there is at least a consensus that it DOES get better.
A lot better.

I am at 9 months post roll.
The first 3 were unbelievably hard - absolute hell.
By 6 months I was able to work daily and participate in life as if I was normal.
Now I am able to function at a higher level than I ever expected to without my medication.

By medication, I am referring to Piracetam.
It is cheap and available without prescription online.
It does amazing things for people in this situation.

By damaging your serotonin nerves in your higher thinking/emotional centers, you have actually reduced blood flow to these regions.
You have also compromised dopamine considerably, because serotonin is a direct modulator of dopamine.
The lack of dopamine in the PFC plays a very direct role in how you are feeling.
When dopamine is reduced in the PFC and other 'cortical' regions, it has nowhere else to go but the lower brain regions.
Do you know what that means?

Psychosis.
More than just lack of sensation and blunted emotions, this hyperactivity of dopamine in the limbic system causes a severe type of anxiety/panic.
This is common in schizophrenia - a disorder that is easily confused with amphetamine psychosis.
The diagnosis of schizophrenia is withheld for at least a year after drug abstinence.

Piracetam increases dopamine and serotonin in the PFC.
By redistributing these neurotransmitters, it greatly reduces the perception of change.
It will not, however, cause permanent re-growth of serotonin axons. That only occurs over a very long period of time.

There is ONE approach that does have an astounding impact upon serotonin innervation - exercise.
Cardio is great for the brain. It will redistribute that dopamine all on its own, and it causes new capillaries to pop up!
A few months of cardio done daily has been prove to increase brain volume and the number of connections between neurons.
It also introduces BDNF, or brain derived neutrophic factor, into several brain regions.
This is a protein that actually releases STEM CELLS - essentially growing NEW neurons.

So, yes - exercise is your best bet.
It is your salvation.
Learn to love it, and DO IT every single day.

Changing your diet is also wise.
95% of your serotonin is in your intestines, not your brain.
Go easy on your gut, man.
That means LOTS of veggies and fruits...and proteins of all kinds.
Lay off the carbs. I'm dead serious....fatty foods and carbohydrates will fuck you up.

So will smoking weed.
It just isn't worth it.

Going to a doctor is going to cost money and provide very few answers.
To get real information, you have to get an fMRI scan which will examine blood distribution around your brain. This will cost about $500, if you are lucky.
Only a PET or a SPECT scan can look at the cellular level - these are much more expensive and they will not alter the course of treatment.
So going to a doctor may not be the solution you are hoping for so badly.

Neurologists with MDMA experience do not generally prescribe medications.
They simply tell their patients the same basic advice on diet/exercise that I have. And they advise them about the 1-2 year guideline.
If you are truly going psychotic, taking a benzo will help. But repeated use of such a medication is a BIG mistake.
The one thing a doctor might offer you could make things MUCH worse.

So if you MUST try something, get the Piracetam.
It is remarkably safe and cheap. And it DOES the JOB - it gets that dopamine out of the limbic system and up to the cortical regions.
Exercise, exercise, exercise. Nothing will be as effective - not even Piracetam.
Eat lots of fish and bananas, too. And sleep.

No more psychedelics for you for more than a year, got it?
Probably multiple years...
If you want more detail, look into my other posts.
No one on BL has written as much about recovery as I have.

If you have more questions, as I'm sure you do, I will try to check this post again tomorrow.
One more thing - you are going to be OK.
I promise.

 

[thizzlam]

Thank you so much your post has truly helped me out and i will go through some of your past post. I already dont feel so bad knowing theres a way out!

 

[thizzlam]

I also have been having a strange feeling in fore head a ammost pulsating and then poping feeling. Maybe i have a hole in my brain?

 

[Bearlove]

^you don't have a hole in your brain and I would bet that you haven't done any long term damage either.

You partied hard and your feeling burnt out, it happens! Stop taking the drugs - eat well, stay hydrated and take it easy - stick to this and you will be feeling better in a few days / weeks.

 

[OpioPhyllis]

^you don't have a hole in your brain and I would bet that you haven't done any long term damage either.

You partied hard and your feeling burnt out, it happens! Stop taking the drugs - eat well, stay hydrated and take it easy - stick to this and you will be feeling better in a few days / weeks.

Agreed. I would like to see the studies and evidence to show that MDMA does such long-term damage when use over a short period of time.
At most, it will take a couple weeks to feeling "normal" again. Don't let anyone make you believe that you are in for a 2 year stint of body aches and depression.

 

[Heh?!]

Agreed. I would like to see the studies and evidence to show that MDMA does such long-term damage when use over a short period of time.
At most, it will take a couple weeks to feeling "normal" again. Don't let anyone make you believe that you are in for a 2 year stint of body aches and depression.

I wouldn't say he's in for years of recovery, but weeks of candy flipping, followed by high doses of MDMA multiple days in a row, and closing out with a 15 pill binge will probably, at least IMO, take more than a few days or weeks to feel normal again. But as Bearlove said, it's unlikely you did any permanent damage, and you do not have a hole in your brain.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

OpioPhyllis -
You'd like to see the studies?
No, you wouldn't.

There are plenty of them out there - what you want is definitive proof that simply cannot be provided.
Until you find such definitive documentation, you will go on believing that MDMA is incapable of the serious neurological injury that is proven to occur in many animal species. Especially with repeated dosing...

Am I just trying to convince another worried OP that it could be really bad?
Or are you just trying to convince yourself that MDMA is basically 'safe'?

Bearlove -
Your intent is good.
You prefer to err on the side of optimism...understandable.
After all, why worry someone unnecessarily?
If they are really in for a long-term recovery, they will figure it out eventually...

In my opinion, blanket reassurance is a form of denial, not just optimism.
Just imagine if the OP continues suffering well past the 'weeks' you mentioned.
What happens when that person walks away from BL with the false belief that things will fix themselves quickly?
What if they are unwilling to return later on, because nobody told them the truth?

To all -
There are a great number of studies illustrating the long-term nature of this recovery.
More than this, the entire research community agrees that MDMA can cause profound serotonin injury in the frontal lobes along with a 're-wiring' of the whole brain. There is NO debate about this anymore - it is KNOWN to happen.

The ONLY debate remaining is the dosage required to induce this level of damage in humans, and the long-term consequences of 're-wiring'.
Many member of BL, and likely some moderators, would prefer that such discussions not take place here.
In fact, I have witnessed quite a few threads like this one shut down simply because the OP broke the 'pill ID' rule.
This is wrong.

I know rules exist for a reason - BL is not meant to serve as a testing and reporting service for different tabs.
But these people come here for HELP.
Often because there is nowhere else to go.
What do they get?

They get suggestions that their pill was adulterated.
They get blanket reassurance that it will just go away.
They get told to go see a doctor, if that doesn't work.
They get their threads shut down if they ask for help identifying what screwed them up.
They get to witness the intentional ignorance or outright denial of correct scientific data.

Whether or not it was designed for it, BL is a last resort for people with profound and REAL neurological damage from MDMA.
Our current OP might be one of them.

Thizzlam -

No, I cannot say for sure how bad it will be.
And the others cannot say how easy it might be.

Your pattern of use is definitely in the high-risk category.
You may have really hurt yourself, maybe not.

Even if you ARE in for a long recovery, there are NO holes in your brain. Period.
What you might have is 'lesions' to the serotonin system. That is like a hole, but not quite.
The 'holes in the brain' theory is really a misstatement, one that has discredited one of the more important studies on human MDMA users.

When researchers do fMRI scans of MDMA user's brains, they often find areas of decreased regional blood flow.
These can be 5, 10, or 15 percent below the average seen in the rest of the brain.
With the imaging technology used, these appear as holes.
The 'holes' can be made to look more or less prominent, depending on the settings input by the doctor.

By no means is this type of research invalid.
No, there are not actual 'holes' in the brain tissue - but the tissue is experiencing a reduction in blood supply AND energy metabolism.
This is a big deal.

Tens of thousands of MRI scans have taught neurologists a very simple truth - blood flow around the brain is supposed to be even.
When it is not, there are normally problems in the patient - sometimes severe problems.
Even in elderly patients, if the brain was well cared for during life it continues to display an even distribution of blood supply.

MDMA causes decreases in cerebral blood supply to many users, not just the ones with problems.
This normally lasts many weeks, sometimes months.
Since serotonin is known to have a direct impact upon small blood vessels in the brain, the depletion of serotonin supply caused by the drug may be responsible for this finding.

Of greater concern, is when these scans reveal increases in brain regions.
This is relatively rare, compared to decreases.
It is also considered a hallmark sign of neurotoxicity.
This is because these patients are MUCH more likely to report SEVERE symptoms such as anxiety/depression/anhedonia.
It is belived that the increases are caused by the re-innervation process.
As serotonin axons are resprouting in new regions, they are pulling on capillaries.
The phenomena of 'brain zaps' and 'head pressure' is very easy to find on BL.

No, there are no holes in your brain.
But there might be empty spots in your serotonin system and loss of blood supply and glucose to brain tissue as a result.
Want some good news?

Somehow, blood flow is restored.
The scans eventually return to normal, but it can take well over a year.
This is in accordance with the timeline established by self-reported anxiety/depression.
Re-innervation of serotonin nerves is believed to be the primary cause of this recovery, but compensatory changes in other neurotransmitter systems are also suspected.

But the important thing here is that blood flow IS restored, eventually.

Another thing Thizzlam, if you are already experiencing the 'zaps' this may be a good sign.
For me, there was constant 'head-pressure' starting at day one. But 'zaps' didn't start for six months.
The scans I mentioned above normally show decreases FIRST, with increases occurring only after a period of time.
If you have already begun with popping sensations, you might be starting the re-wiring process much quicker.

If you are young, you have an advantage in terms of plasticity.
Another factor - long-term marijuana users often experience the worst psychological effects if they develop MDMA psychosis.
While extent of MDMA use predicts the cognitive deficits, it is cannabis use that predicts emotional distress.

I do believe you are going to be OK, but I won't lie to you.
For some of us, this recovery process is profound and extremely difficult.
I hope you are one of the more fortunate.

Good luck.

 

[im3rdworld]

eat alot of vitamin c atleast 3 grams a day and also drink green tea. i take Sulbutiamine when recovering works like magic. basically load up on alot of anti oxidants it will help u recover quickly.

 

[Renz Envy]

Changing your diet is also wise.
95% of your serotonin is in your intestines, not your brain.
Go easy on your gut, man.
That means LOTS of veggies and fruits...and proteins of all kinds.
Lay off the carbs. I'm dead serious....fatty foods and carbohydrates will fuck you up.

I disagree. Starches in potatoes and oats are a good source of carbohydrates when revitalizing your brain. Carbohydrates go a long way in brain function. If anyone disagrees, try going on a ketotonic diet for a few weeks.

One really can't write off any macro-nutrient. I'd say having 40-50% of your diet being complex-carbs would be good for someone trying to re cooperate brain function. *But remember that exercise has always been my miracle cure for drug come-downs and depression.*

 

[thizzlam]

Thanks any advice on my mucles they feel like jello now? My friend told me mdma causes muscle decay or something

 

[Thomas29]

Ya you did it a bit to much.... In my experience ya do not want to do it more than twice a year maybe 3 times. Sooo if you wanted to roll 3 times in a year you can do it again a month after your last roll or two months. But doing that every 2 months for an extended period of time will cause problems.

 

[OpioPhyllis]

OpioPhyllis -
You'd like to see the studies?
No, you wouldn't.

There are plenty of them out there - what you want is definitive proof that simply cannot be provided.
Until you find such definitive documentation, you will go on believing that MDMA is incapable of the serious neurological injury that is proven to occur in many animal species. Especially with repeated dosing...

Am I just trying to convince another worried OP that it could be really bad?
Or are you just trying to convince yourself that MDMA is basically 'safe'?

Excuse you? Actually, I would like to see the studies you are basing your opinion on--to see if they are reliable and valid studies, or ones that leave much to be desired. Just because a study is done, doesn't mean that it was conducted properly, thus leading to conclusions that cannot be trusted.

I really don't know if MDMA is basically safe; but telling some young kid that after a relatively short period of binging is going to lead to 18 months of depression is setting him up for a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Clearly you are knowledgeable about brain physiology, and that, I think, is very cool. But passing off the information you are as fact can do harm by frightening people and making them believe they have brain damage. I mean, seriously, what you are saying in your posts are mostly inferences based on some facts, and the rest on hypotheses.

What EXACTLY do you mean by "lesions to the serotonin system?" What a vague statement!! I wasn't aware that there was an actual physical serotonin system; you make it sound like its similar to one's digestive system.

I think there exists among jaded drug users a population who searches out reasons as to why they remain discontented; rather than focusing on their behavior and thinking, they use the past drug use as an excuse for their depression. Sure, I am not opposed to the idea that long-term heavy use of certain drugs can cause damage to the brain (alcohol is a great example), but until I start seeing quality research on it I am not about to be spoon fed with what really sounds like government propaganda.

Again, I would challenge you to provide the studies you are basing such strong advice on. I will eat my words if you can, because I would rather be enlightened than ignorant. Truly.

 

[Darksidesam]

In a short Conclusion.

I would say if you stop taking MDMA full stop, and LSD and other drugs for a long time (chatting 6 months)
And eat healthily and do exercise, then i would say you can quite possibly make a full recovery.

Why do people go mad on dosing.... why....

So many new posters on here are saying how they are doomed from mdma, not many people know how to use it i dont think


Would you like to try eating these and see if it helps you recover?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hericium_erinaceus

 

[FlippingTop]

Sorry to hear another story like this.
I don't have time to write an extensive reply like I usually do.
I stumbled across this post and I couldn't just ignore it.

Looking into my post history will reveal a lot of information about what you are going through.
It may not be as serious as I suspect, but if it is you would benefit from some of the details I spent so much time contributing.

Here are some basics - the repeated dosing you describe is always the best way to destroy axons in the serotonin system.
In the prefrontal cortex, the axons are thin and fiber-like and they are the first to go. They also exhibit the least amount of recovery in the long-term.
However, there IS some recovery, even in the PFC.

But it takes a LONG time.
Think in terms of months, not days.
The brain does not recover in the same time period we experience life in.

TONS of research on ex-MDMA users agrees with a general timeline for recovery.
Even among heavy long-term users, reports of anxiety and depression normally stop around the one year mark.
Occasionally it can take 18 months.

This doesn't mean you are destined to follow this timeline - you might be lucky and recover within weeks to a few months.
But in my experience on BL, those that do not improve substantially in the first 2 months are very likely to follow the 1-1.5 year guideline.
It is very rare to hear of people going past 2 years, if you are that worried.

Many say that it 'never really goes away' but I find that many of these reports come from people still in the first 2-3 years of their recovery.
Regardless of who is speaking, there is at least a consensus that it DOES get better.
A lot better.

I am at 9 months post roll.
The first 3 were unbelievably hard - absolute hell.
By 6 months I was able to work daily and participate in life as if I was normal.
Now I am able to function at a higher level than I ever expected to without my medication.

By medication, I am referring to Piracetam.
It is cheap and available without prescription online.
It does amazing things for people in this situation.

By damaging your serotonin nerves in your higher thinking/emotional centers, you have actually reduced blood flow to these regions.
You have also compromised dopamine considerably, because serotonin is a direct modulator of dopamine.
The lack of dopamine in the PFC plays a very direct role in how you are feeling.
When dopamine is reduced in the PFC and other 'cortical' regions, it has nowhere else to go but the lower brain regions.
Do you know what that means?

Psychosis.
More than just lack of sensation and blunted emotions, this hyperactivity of dopamine in the limbic system causes a severe type of anxiety/panic.
This is common in schizophrenia - a disorder that is easily confused with amphetamine psychosis.
The diagnosis of schizophrenia is withheld for at least a year after drug abstinence.

Piracetam increases dopamine and serotonin in the PFC.
By redistributing these neurotransmitters, it greatly reduces the perception of change.
It will not, however, cause permanent re-growth of serotonin axons. That only occurs over a very long period of time.

There is ONE approach that does have an astounding impact upon serotonin innervation - exercise.
Cardio is great for the brain. It will redistribute that dopamine all on its own, and it causes new capillaries to pop up!
A few months of cardio done daily has been prove to increase brain volume and the number of connections between neurons.
It also introduces BDNF, or brain derived neutrophic factor, into several brain regions.
This is a protein that actually releases STEM CELLS - essentially growing NEW neurons.

So, yes - exercise is your best bet.
It is your salvation.
Learn to love it, and DO IT every single day.

Changing your diet is also wise.
95% of your serotonin is in your intestines, not your brain.
Go easy on your gut, man.
That means LOTS of veggies and fruits...and proteins of all kinds.
Lay off the carbs. I'm dead serious....fatty foods and carbohydrates will fuck you up.

So will smoking weed.
It just isn't worth it.

Going to a doctor is going to cost money and provide very few answers.
To get real information, you have to get an fMRI scan which will examine blood distribution around your brain. This will cost about $500, if you are lucky.
Only a PET or a SPECT scan can look at the cellular level - these are much more expensive and they will not alter the course of treatment.
So going to a doctor may not be the solution you are hoping for so badly.

Neurologists with MDMA experience do not generally prescribe medications.
They simply tell their patients the same basic advice on diet/exercise that I have. And they advise them about the 1-2 year guideline.
If you are truly going psychotic, taking a benzo will help. But repeated use of such a medication is a BIG mistake.
The one thing a doctor might offer you could make things MUCH worse.

So if you MUST try something, get the Piracetam.
It is remarkably safe and cheap. And it DOES the JOB - it gets that dopamine out of the limbic system and up to the cortical regions.
Exercise, exercise, exercise. Nothing will be as effective - not even Piracetam.
Eat lots of fish and bananas, too. And sleep.

No more psychedelics for you for more than a year, got it?
Probably multiple years...
If you want more detail, look into my other posts.
No one on BL has written as much about recovery as I have.

If you have more questions, as I'm sure you do, I will try to check this post again tomorrow.
One more thing - you are going to be OK.
I promise.

Fucking hell man are you trying to make this guy get a first bad comedown!

OP stop taking drugs full stop. eat sleep and work out and you will be fine. Don't worry yourself about it......

 

[Folley]

Fucking hell man are you trying to make this guy get a first bad comedown!

OP stop taking drugs full stop. eat sleep and work out and you will be fine. Don't worry yourself about it......

If you dont think doing E can FUCK YOU UP you havent done very much ecstasy. In fact I never really even noticed the negative effects E was having on me till I stopped.

 

[OpioPhyllis]

Some people get off on fear mongering. Just sayin'.