What are the psychedelic alkaloids in mushrooms? 4-Ho-DMT? What else?

[sheepie]

And, less importantly, what's the ballpark ratio of these alkaloids? Obviously it depends on the mushrooms, but say your average cubensis, is there some paper that has a list? I've googled "magic mushroom alkaloids" but haven't found anything useful.

We know psilocybin, 4-PO-DMT, and psilocin, 4-HO-DMT

What about 4-ACO-DMT? Is that found in mushrooms? Anything else?

 

[perKeceT]

i believe everything youre asking for is in the erowid psilocybin mushroom vault.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms.shtml

 

[perKeceT]

also, 4aco dmt is synthetic i believe. but in the body it is metabolized into psilocin

 

[Ismene]

One thing to bear in mind is just because you can theoretically find something in the mushroom in the lab doesn't mean it can be detected by the brain, particularly when in the presence of a powerful psychedelic like psilocybin/psilocin.

A lot of people get carried away with this idea that "because theres like 1% of baeocystin in this type of mushroom it's like a different trip dude". That's horseshit.

 

[Korn3x]

^^
personally i've never done shrooms, so i have no first hand experience, but on other forums i know that some people seek out different species of mushrooms due to there being a more "favorable" combination of alkaloids which may indirectly affect the trip by providing less nausea or body load, which could help provide a better setting and mindset, thus increasing the potential for a more positive trip/better experience. not sure how much of this is true though.

 

[Korn3x]

also, 4aco dmt is synthetic i believe. but in the body it is metabolized into psilocin

and yes that is the theory, although there is also some belief that the 4-aco-dmt is also somewhat active on its own as well, which is why the effects can be felt fairly quickly and also why some users report that 4-aco-dmt has a feeling that is slightly distinct from mushrooms.

 

[huolesoh]

i think there are many psychoactive chemicals in mushrooms, perhaps they even synergise, altering the experience? but i'll bet there's hundreds, undiscovered, so it's difficult to research them

and thus; if you're choosing a plant to eat, i say go with your natural reaction. which do you like the look of? which looks a bit freaky and nasty, like you don't wanna go near it?

and now to go a bit off topic into the natural vs synthetic argument...

Terence McKenna: "only plants give full experience. it's a living thing, it has a soul" etc etc
Alexander Shugin: "i notice no difference between synthetic and plant, and believe that nature is flawed, and can be improved with synthetics" note also that Alexander Shulgin eats white bread, which always stuck in my head as a good analogy

a mushroom is a complex organism -- large array of chemicals contributing to overall affect, the most potent being psilocybin. but, like THC in marihuana, there are a bunch of other things in the plant that all add up to the overall effect

i do think different strains = different effects. with cannabis, mushrooms, cacti; i say, any plant that distinctly variates across strains and in physical attributes will variate in chemical composition, and thus in effects

of course set and setting also play a part though; sometimes even moreso then the chemicals in the first place...

 

[Ismene]

but on other forums i know that some people seek out different species of mushrooms due to there being a more "favorable" combination of alkaloids which may indirectly affect the trip by providing less nausea or body load, which could help provide a better setting and mindset, thus increasing the potential for a more positive trip/better experience.

Yeah you read a lot of claims like that but the problem with them all is that psilocybin has a vast range of different effects all by itself. If it's a sunny day you can have an entirely different trip to if it's rainy. If there's a pair of shitten y-fronts on the floor beside you in some grotty fucking shithole of a room you have a different trip to if you're stood beside a waterfall in Yellowstone National Park. People don't take this into account - they just take mexican cubensis and then go "Dude, that trip was different to the cambodian cubensis it must be something else in the mushroom!".

I used to believe shit like this - until one day when I had some mexican cubensis in one jar and some "philosophers stones" in another jar in the freezer. I believed that the stones gave you a "less visual trip" that was not as "righteously mellow" as the real cubensis shrooms. Then I had the most visual trip of my life, looked in the freezer and realised I'd taken the stones instead of the shrooms. That was the end of my belief in "different strains give you different trips".

 

[Alexander Gray]

4-PO-DMT and 4-AcO-DMT both seem to be prodrugs for 4-HO-DMT as they are metabolized into it very rapidly. It would make sense that for the brief period of time its unchanged in your body that each would exert its own effects for a bit. Though they both likely have effects very similar to psilocin based on similar structure.

 

[sekio]

To the best of my knowledge mushrooms contain 4-HO-DMT, 4-HO-NMT, 4-HO-T, T, and some even have 4-HO-N,N,N-TMT in small amounts. They also contain the phosphate esters. (4-PO-xxx) There are also phenolic compounds and wierd polyunsaturated fats, sterols, etc.. I'm sure the gas/gut problems with mushrooms are attributable to the latter compounds and/or the huge amount of fibre. Some mushrooms have trace amounts of muscarine too.

4-AcO-xxx are all synthetic. Though if you "feed" mushrooms other tryptamines, they will 4-hydroxylate/phosphorylate them for you.

 

[Ismene]

Psilocybin mushrooms don't contain muscarine - that's amantias, a completely different mushroom that doesn't contain psilocybin.

The only alkaloids I've ever heard mushrooms containing are psilocybin, psilocin and baeocystin.

 

[DwayneHoover]

One thing to bear in mind is just because you can theoretically find something in the mushroom in the lab doesn't mean it can be detected by the brain, particularly when in the presence of a powerful psychedelic like psilocybin/psilocin.

A lot of people get carried away with this idea that "because theres like 1% of baeocystin in this type of mushroom it's like a different trip dude". That's horseshit.

You are just pulling this outta yer ass, playing role of snide, superior super-debunker. Well, "horseshit", "dude".

(1) You have no ref to comparative study of people doing shrooms with zero baeocystin VERSUS people doing shrooms with various levels of it, comparing the effects. Or do you... if so lets see it.

(2) The range of comparative quantities varies widely within and between sub species, with some having as much as 1/3 the weight of the psilocin (P. semilanceata %weight .98/.02/.36 psiolocybin/psilocin/baeocystin).

(3) There is also neobaeocystin.

(4) Its entirely possible when one is dealing with psychedelic alkaloids that one could have some sensitizing effect that modifies the spectrum of the primary alkaloids effects... changing the "color" of the experience, without having alot of effect on its own. We see these kind of non-intuitive magnifying cross-effect all the time when people deliberately combine recreational drugs... or like with MaO inhibitors... or like a comparatively tiny relative quantity of a catalyst substance can have a huge impact on a chemical reaction. Or perhaps the presence of the psilocin somehow magnifies the effects of a much smaller amount of baocystin, who the hell knows? This is especially true when dealing with effects of things on nervous system receptors and other elements.

5) By your thinking 4-aco-dmt which theoretically hydrolyzes entirely into psilocin should have EXACTLY the same effect as shrooms, but I and tens of thousands of reports will prove it most certainly does NOT... it is usually a markedly different dispersal of effects, notably far far lower in the often strong dysphoria and anxiety reactions that shrooms tend to produce. If baeocystin is not responsible for this difference, THEN WHAT IS, SHERLOCK? Dont even think of saying "Thats another myth, 4-aco-dmt and shrooms have exactly the same effects, all you duffuses are all just imagining via placebo effect that they are different" because you will be laughed out of the room.

 

[Ismene]

You are just pulling this outta yer ass

No, you're pulling theories out of your ass claiming that because something can be detected in a lab that means it must play a part in the trip. No it musn't.

You have no ref to comparative study of people doing shrooms with zero baeocystin VERSUS people doing shrooms with various levels of it, comparing the effects. Or do you... if so lets see it.

Maria Sabina - the saint mother of the mushrooms (so she should know right?) was given pure psilocybin pills (no baeocystin). She said the spirit of the mushroom was in the pill and she could use the pills instead of the mushrooms. Kinda blows your theory apart eh?

The range of comparative quantities varies widely within and between sub species

Do you have a point? Or are you just stating the bleedin' obvious in hope of bullshitting your way through? Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the human brain can detect baeocystin in the presence of an overwhelming dose of psilocybin?

There is also neobaeocystin.

Your point being?

Its entirely possible when one is dealing with psychedelic alkaloids that one could have some sensitizing effect that modifies the spectrum of the primary alkaloids effects..or like with MaO inhibitors

I'm not letting you get away with that one Dwayne. (You must have been really hoping I would to even try it on). Don't try and compare MAO inhibitors with the "presence of other alkaloids". MAO inhibitors are ferociously powerful drugs in their own right and definately will affect a mushroom experience.

By your thinking 4-aco-dmt which theoretically hydrolyzes entirely into psilocin should have EXACTLY the same effect as shrooms, but I and tens of thousands of reports will prove it most certainly does NOT

What are you talking about "by my thinking"? Don't try and bring 4-aco-dmt into this because all your other arguments have failed. Stick to mushrooms. I havn't said anything about "4-aco-dmt being exactly the same as mushrooms". I've never even taken 4-aco-dmt.

If baeocystin is not responsible for this difference, THEN WHAT IS, SHERLOCK?

Come again Einstein? Are you saying the only possible reason why 4-aco-dmt doesn't feel exactly the same as mushrooms is because of baeocystin? Are you serious?

because you will be laughed out of the room.

You'd have to get me in a room with you first Dwayne.

 

[sylvan]

(1) You have no ref to comparative study of people doing shrooms with zero baeocystin VERSUS people doing shrooms with various levels of it, comparing the effects. Or do you... if so lets see it.

I would rather not get drawn into this argument, but I feel I should point out that the burden of proof is on those who make a positive claim. Are there any studies that demonstrate a difference in effects? (I am honestly curious.)

 

[twelvesevndi]

I'm sure the gas/gut problems with mushrooms are attributable to the latter compounds and/or the huge amount of fibre.

what a madness thing to say! have you never tried 4-aco-dmt? exact same stomach discomfort as cubensis.

dont even think of saying "Thats another myth, 4-aco-dmt and shrooms have exactly the same effects, all you duffuses are all just imagining via placebo effect that they are different" because you will be laughed out of the room.

this is also a madness....i swear with complete honesty that i would be unable to tell the diff between 4-aco-dmt and powdered mushrooms by the effects. if there is a difference you'll have to admit that it is subtle and only noticable for someone who's been regularly tripping on mushrooms for a very long time.

did you ever think that perhaps why you don't get as much dysphoria from 4-aco-dmt is that you can get the exact dose you want each time?