Low drug threshold? Please help!

[Flickering]

I researched drugs for months before deciding to take any, applied a strict set of guidelines on which substances were okay and how often to take them, and I still got fucked over.

I had a condition as a kid called Alice in Wonderland Syndrome, which reportedly interacts very badly with acid and weed. But I know of others with this condition who've experiences no negative side effects on drugs. I decided to experiment with DXM and psilocybin, and long story short, it went badly. Very badly.

The first trip on DXM was great. Only 300mg, second plateau, blissful euphoria and brain fog.

The second trip was a total plane crash. 600mg, with a friend trip sitting, and instead of hallucinating in the third plateau, I lost my mind for a few hours, thought I didn't exist, and came out of it unsure if any of it had really happened. It was maybe the worst experience of my life.

Until I took mushrooms a month and a half later, only two grams, and got something even worse. Total insanity. Psychosis. The hallucinations, at first brilliant, ceased beyond the first hour and I was just a crazy guy trapped in his room until his mind could reboot.

Please, what's going on here? I'm 99% sure I'll have to give up drugs before I wreck my brain permanently. But I really REALLY wanted them to work. I'm on a psychospiritual quest and just before the psilocybin trip went bad, I was so close to finally getting somewhere with it.

I seem to have a threshold. I can tolerate a low dose and things are typical enough. At anything medium or above though, the 'trip' warps into something completely unlike anything I've heard from the substances in question, and I just completely lose my mind. Any idea why this is happening? Should I discontinue immediately? Are there any other equally powerful experiences I can have without drugs - e.g. forms of meditation, isolation tanks...?

I will also mention that the dried mushrooms did not taste bad, which is unusual. Perhaps they were off or something?

Any help, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks. :D

 

[Bojangles69]

Well you are saying basically that you have very strong reactions to drugs right? I think even aside from your alice in wonderland syndrome its still fairly normal for anyone to have an unpredictable experience with any type of psychedelic. I've always had very very odd reactions to ketamine. Hard to explain but when I take a lot, sometimes during the high I can bounce right back into a sober type of mind where I understand who I am and the fact that I'm on a very powerful drug, and then I will be thrown completely out of that reality into a spot where I have no idea who the hell I am or what I'm doing.

Drugs are unpredictable. Take hallucinogens which are known to be some of the most unpredictable drugs that exist and now you can see why they effect people in such different ways. But really it seems like what you are saying is you get very high off small doses, and I'd consider that a good thing, you can save money. Don't feel the need to always be pushing doses to what you consider widescale averages or something.
If a drug works at once dose (like DXM) then why even double the dose next time? I mean it was powerful enough first time around right? So doubling that dose can't you see the potential for some nasty shit to start happening?

Maybe you are just getting greedy or expecting more from a certain drug idk but I'd seriously just stick to low doses and work your way up. If you find over and over when you work your doses up that you're getting crazy reactions then just stop taking high doses imho.


edit: like here let me give you a specific example.
I read you generally have to take 2-3 puffs of salvia to really experience what it does to your mind or w/e.
When I did it I took one massively retarded hit from a water bubbler, and I'm a smoker so I can take big hits. It was like 2 seconds after I blew the smoke out and I can't even explain what happened to my brain. But it was very traumatic. I had no idea who I was, what species I was, forgot how to talk, don't remember hearing any sound during the trip I believe it made me deaf, and when I started to come out of the nightmarish hell salvia put me in I remember just looking in the mirror at myself feeling like I was looking at an alien. Like I was SOOO CURIOUS about what the hell it was in the mirror that I was looking at. I had NO IDEA, and it was me. I don't even want to try to explain the actual trip cause it wouldn't make sense.

But long story short, I only took one hit. Thats as far as I ever want to go with that shit and I will NEVER do it again because I had a bad experience. Nothing to really figure out it just is what it is. If you are having overbearing reactions to psychedelics maybe stop raising the doses like you do. Its the same thing with ketamine for me too. I can k-hole off of very small amounts. And when I do k-hole I fucking hate it. Its too intense. But it seems almost like if you were me instead of stopping the k you'd take a higher dose next time to increase your "psychonaut spritual journey" or w/e you call it. Call it spiritual, but its really insanity imo. You are messing with hallucinogens. They're naturally unpredictable. I'm not sure what else there really is to it. Just stop raising the doses so high.

 

[Legerity]

You cannot predict with precision the effects that a psychedelic will have. A difficult trip may be something that can be learn from but if you're traumatizing yourself then that is most likely not in your best interest.

I'm going to move this to to psychedelics forum. I think you may get more discussion over there about tripping or other non-drug methods of achieving altered states.

TDS ---------------------------------------------------> PD

 

[RhythmSpring]

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=578816

 

[Flickering]

Well you are saying basically that you have very strong reactions to drugs right?

Actually, I don't think so. It seems more like I have a normal reaction to them, until a certain point. Beyond this threshold, it stops being a trip and starts being total mental breakdown.

So the thing is, on 300mg of DXM, I got a pretty typical second plateau trip, by no means more powerful than what most people experience. Now, when I took 600mg, I rose through the first plateau, the second... and then there was a time lapse, a discontinuity of consciousness, and I was suddenly in hell. It's a lot like what you described from your salvia trip, which by the way I can absolutely relate to. The good thing with salvia is that the experience is only five minutes long. Both my experiences lasted eight hours, and about half of it was spent in a traumatising state similar to what you described.

If I keep low-dosing, I doubt it will be worthwhile at all... I think I need a medium or high dose to get to where I'm needing to go. However, it may be worth taking less than a gram of mushrooms next tme and seeing what happens. Perhaps I can combine a small dose with an isolation tank for added effects.

I'm just concerned that the psychosis I experienced is my brain's defense mechanism against strange chemicals, and that I'll experience something similar on even a low dose. Because it was seriously the worst thing that's ever happened to me, and that's coming from someone who's spent months being suicidally depressed before. I don't want to go through that again.

EDIT: The reason I took a moderate dose of mushrooms even after the horrible DXM experience is that I thought my bad reaction was exclusive to DXM. At the worst, I thought a bad trip on two grams couldn't be that terrible. But it's posible I am very sensitive to mushrooms... the first effects hit within ten minutes, and within forty minutes I was vividly hallucinating and music was simply incredible. But I was still coming up then, right? Perhaps with a gram or less, I'll get the same experience, but at the peak of the trip rather than the coming up. I will research this; again, really appreciate any and all feedback.

 

[bartlebooth]

Months of prior research can't entirely prepare you, as you have seen.

The first trip on DXM was great. Only 300mg, second plateau, blissful euphoria and brain fog.

The second trip was a total plane crash. 600mg,

Doubling your dose of DXM did not sound like a well-advised decision, but maybe I'm overly cautious.

I cannot comment on the Alice in Wonderland Syndrome, but regarding "bad trips" generally, I've found them to be every bit as helpful and often moreso than purely positive trips. Learning to accept a challenging trip can be a powerful experience with long-lasting rewards.

Don't get caught up in fearful, knee-jerk reactions to your feelings during a trip and don't jump into a trip with inflexible expectations on it.

If I keep low-dosing, I doubt it will be worthwhile at all... I think I need a medium or high dose to get to where I'm needing to go.

So far the evidence seems very much contrary to your thoughts. You might find better success with higher doses after working with lower doses and slowly increasing your doses over time.

I'm just concerned that the psychosis I experienced is my brain's defense mechanism against strange chemicals, and that I'll experience something similar on even a low dose. Because it was seriously the worst thing that's ever happened to me, and that's coming from someone who's spent months being suicidally depressed before. I don't want to go through that again.

You might be right, but if you are, I don't think it is a good idea to continue to invite torment into your life hoping that you will one day be taken to where you feel you need to go. If you do continue experimenting with these chemicals, I would recommend that you at least table this concern before tripping. Whether or not it is true, when you are worried that it is true, it will seem to be authentically true.

 

[Solipsis]

Alice in Wonderland Syndrome as in meaning micropsia? That is a psychedelic-like phenomenon which seems to indicate to me that you very well could be extra sensitive to effects that warp sensory information.

Dried mushooms don't necessarily taste that bad, especially if they are dried extremely thoroughly and are a little older, IME. So that doesn't say anything.

Anyway what I am saying about sensitivity, whatever it is like you indicate yourself it is probably very necessary for you not to experiment further with drugs, like people with psychiatric disorders / diagnoses there is otherwise a strongly increase risk of escalation, psychotic episodes of whatever kind of nature. You cannot ask people here to predict chances of what might happen if you do continue, I think previous experience has shown you that: apparently the chance of something bad happening are extremely high, more certain than not even.

Please consider how that can be worth it? You have only one thing to do in my opinion and that is learn to accept all of this. But trust me I know where you are coming from, I myself have strong reasons to stay away from drugs like ketamine. Though for me it is not even remotely as severe, I have the very same thing to learn - I very much want to be able to continue using it but I just should not. And that's it.

 

[Gerald92]

some people are just extra sensitive to certain drugs. i can handle LSD fine, and have done as much as three tabs and have never completely lost it. however, i have done shrooms 3 times, all on 1.7 grams, and all 3 times i was in another world, and freaked out to a certain degree, especially the first two times.

 

[Flickering]

Doubling your dose of DXM did not sound like a well-advised decision, but maybe I'm overly cautious.

In retrospect, yes. I felt, however, that I was ready for a third plateau trip. Indeed I still believe this, but the thing is, I didn't get a trip at all, I just got some kind of psychotic break. I reasoned at the time that some people start with 600mg. I certainly regret though that I didn't try 400 or 350 instead.

I cannot comment on the Alice in Wonderland Syndrome, but regarding "bad trips" generally, I've found them to be every bit as helpful and often moreso than purely positive trips. Learning to accept a challenging trip can be a powerful experience with long-lasting rewards.

Certainly... but were these really trips, or just psychotic episodes?

Alice in Wonderland Syndrome as in meaning micropsia?

The very same - though, I only experienced it as a child. My last micropsia episode was at age fourteen. I've surveyed Bluelight to see if there's anyone else who used to have micropsia and sure enough, plenty of drug users report it, and none with adverse effects. Perhaps though it's a positive feedback loop. The ones who DID get adverse effects might have gone crazy and that's why they're not posting their feedback here.

Please consider how that can be worth it? You have only one thing to do in my opinion and that is learn to accept all of this. But trust me I know where you are coming from, I myself have strong reasons to stay away from drugs like ketamine. Though for me it is not even remotely as severe, I have the very same thing to learn - I very much want to be able to continue using it but I just should not. And that's it.

You're my voice of reason. I've been replaying this exact thought in my head on repeat.

But it's not enough. I need this. It isn't addiction, exactly (heh, addiction to mushrooms) - but it's a need to penetrate my mind, to experience really living, to truly understand things that are just vague intellectual concepts right now. It's the only way I can see out of this depressive hell I'm in now and I know it would work if my stupid brain would just function the way it's supposed to, and absorb the stuff properly!

I don't know... you're right and the only thing to do really is to walk away... but surely I could experiment again with half a gram. If I'm very sensitive, best case is I get a heavy trip out of a tiny amount. Worst case is it's not nearly as bad as my two gram 'trip'. That's where I'm at now.

I'm also exploring shamanism, as a way to induce altered states of consciousness without mind-bending substances.

Thanks for your help...

 

[atara]

Forgetting who you are doesn't sound too terribly unlikely on a third plateau dose of DXM. Freaking out and feeling like you're losing your mind doesn't sound too terribly unlikely on two grams of shrooms for someone who just had a really bad experience on a high dose of DXM. Mushrooms are fun, physically safe, and potentially awesome, but they are easily one of the scariest psychedelics out there; if you don't believe me, believe TiHKAL. The reality is that LSD is basically guaranteed to be an easier experience than mushrooms, cannabis as well.

Psychedelics do weird things to migraine sufferers, and migraines are connected with AIWS. Furthermore are migraines generally considered to be connected to stimulation at the 5-ht1 subtypes 5-ht1b and 5-ht1d receptors, and the triptans, used to treat migraines, target exactly these. Tryptamines (including mushrooms, DMT, foxy aka 5-MeO-DiPT) affect these receptors, phenethylamines do not, in general. LSD affects only 5-ht1a to my knowledge.

It seems like you want to keep using these drugs, and it is my sworn duty (or some shit like that) to help you do so safely. Let me tell you something, then: most people who get heavily into dissociatives end up regretting it. Positive experiences are generally achieved by using them to enhance the peak of a psychedelic trip for an extremely intense experience (which I do NOT recommend for you), using them in a low-dose regimen a la Jamshyd (which is not what you seek), or using them to ease withdrawal from another highly addictive substance (which does not apply to you).

So... try a low dose of cacti (mescaline) or a 2C-x, and consider cannabis as well. MDMA may be what you're after but I recommend that if you choose to pursue it you do so extremely cautiously with low doses and increase very gradually; still, based on what I've seen I think I'd rather see you on ecstasy than shrooms.

If you want transcendence, here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/cgi-bin/koan-index.pl

Read Socrates, read koans, read David Foster Wallace. Or at least that's what I've been up to lately...

 

[Flickering]

Forgetting who you are doesn't sound too terribly unlikely on a third plateau dose of DXM. Freaking out and feeling like you're losing your mind doesn't sound too terribly unlikely on two grams of shrooms for someone who just had a really bad experience on a high dose of DXM.

For sure. However, I didn't feel like I lost my mind; I actually lost my mind.

It's hard to convey the sheer awfulness of it. I recall the time lapse on mushrooms went something like this...

One moment I was having fun with the music and visuals. Then there were a few scattered moments - looking at my computer, feeling bad, talking to my roommate... Next thing I knew, it felt as though it had been weeks since I took the mushrooms. I literally felt as though I was in a padded room, being watched by family and friends and doctors. And the room around me, I believed, was an illusion. It felt so sterile, and fake, and wrong. I was convinced I'd ruined my brain and destroyed my life. And that was just the start.

Bad trips are of course always going to be awful, with fearful phantasms and unpleasant bodily sensations and deep feelings of terror, revulsion, etc. This was something else entirely. A psychotic break, I'm convinced. Being insane was the worst feeling in the world, and it took me a long time after I came down to accept that it had in fact been temporary, and I was okay. It was like a preview of what would have been permanent had I taken four or five grams, instead of two.

Psychedelics do weird things to migraine sufferers, and migraines are connected with AIWS.

Yeah. This was my main concern, and it appears it was justified. Though I've never suffered migraines, and I believe my AiWS episodes came about from being given DXM-containing medicine as an infant, it's the only explanation I can see for why my neurotransmitters couldn't cope with chemicals 99.5% of people are fine with. I have no idea how else to account for it.

So... try a low dose of cacti (mescaline) or a 2C-x, and consider cannabis as well. MDMA may be what you're after but I recommend that if you choose to pursue it you do so extremely cautiously with low doses and increase very gradually; still, based on what I've seen I think I'd rather see you on ecstasy than shrooms.

Basically then, I want to stay the hell away from tryptamines?

This is a good place to start. Thank you. I'm going to try and run it by a psychiatrist first though. In all likelihood I'll just get told to stay away from all drugs and what on earth am I thinking. Good question. But if I can get a professional answer, I may proceed.

If I can get hold of san pedro, I'll start with a threshold low dose. The problem though is that if things go wrong, I'm in for a twelve-hour nightmare. It shouldn't be too hard to find 2C-B, as I already know one person who's tried it and recommends it. Again, threshold low dose, 5mg or so to start with. Cannabis scares me, to be honest, but I'll think about it. Ecstasy, well... maybe, but 2C-B sounds similar to it, just more psychadelic. I won't try acid because even half a tab might equal the intensity of a 2g 'shroom trip, and from what I've read of it, it's the most volatile and unpredictable of the three classic psychadelics.

If you want transcendence, here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/cgi-bin/koan-index.pl

Read Socrates, read koans, read David Foster Wallace. Or at least that's what I've been up to lately...

Ahh Buddhism. I've explored much of it but there will always be more exploring. An online acquaintance introduced me to Alan Watts yesterday. I'm enjoying his philosophy very much.

I appreciate your advice, I hope it will help me not wreck my brain.

A final thing to note is that dextromenthorphan is not a tryptamine, but it still caused an episode on 600mg. However, I was fine at 300mg, which suggests the barrier is somewhere between those doses. I'm hoping 2C-B (and maybe 2C-E) will have no such barriers at all. Perhaps they will become my primary psychonautical tools.