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needinfo on quitting hydro painkillers.

H

hvac5646

Bluelighter
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
153
Location
NW Burbs of Detroit
Moderator I might need help putting this post in the right forum.

Hears the deal: I am a recovering abuser. But I still am be treating for chroinic pain.

I take four Norco 10/325 aday. Three 10mg Flexerill aday.

3 mg xanax aday. and ambien. I am just tired of being a slave to the painkillers.

My doc won't switch me to a longer acting drug like oxy or morphine. God forbid he should go out on a limb and take a chance he might actually put me back to work instead of drawing SS checks every month.

I gave up on my self this past month as ever hoping to control my use of pain meds. My wife controls my meds and she hides them. But this week I accidentally found the hiding spot. I was not looking for it. it just happened.

I swiped five pills to kill my back pain(and get a short term buzz) after helping a guy fix his a/c. Can't stand straight with out stabbing pains and leg pains.
And i did again last night.

What do they have that will allow me to detox in my doctors office?

I am sick and tired of the rare time I crave the buzz.

help.
 
This should probably go in Other Drugs if there isn't an opiate forum (I don't think I've seen one here??)

What are you asking? I don't think your doc will have anything that will let you detox IN his office. Unless you want an incredibly painful shot of naloxone/naltrexone.

Your dosage isn't really that high. You could probably detox cold turkey and be fine within a week. In fact, you'd be feeling better after a few days. But if you really think you need medication to help you kick, talk to your doctor about buprenorphine (Suboxone/Subutex). This drug, since its a partial opiate agonist, will help with your pain, but it isn't really something you can abuse. That might be what you're looking for.

-T N
 
I think that most people will recommend going the suboxone route. You can find a doctor on their website. I don't know if it is really worth doing though. 40mgs of hydrocodone isn't that bad, but I am assuming that you have been on that for a very long time.

NASADD ---> OD
 
Personally I would suggest just going cold turkey (or maybe a very quick taper) from the Norcos and having your doctor bump the Xanax and flexeril for a week or so before you start a taper off those. The Xanax should probably be changed to Valium or clonazepam after you are feeling better from the detox so you can slowly taper over the next year or so.

On the other hand, depending on the extent of your chronic pain the above may not be possible and you may have to go on something like Suboxone. Suboxone is very strong though and I would guess that your doctor and most Sub Dr.’s will give you way too high of a dose so just be careful if they want you to start at like 16 or 32mg.

I have found that 2mg twice a day has been somewhat helpful for my chronic pain. It does not compare to the shorter acting full agonists like Oxy or Morphine however when comparing it to the dose of hydro you are taking I think it might help a lot, as long as you keep the dose low.

If this sounds like a good idea to you there is a lot of info on Suboxone on this website and I am sure you will be able to find all the information you need.

Also if you truly feel that you want to get off the full agonist opiates then you should just have a frank conversation with your doctor as in the end you are going to need a Dr. no matter what even if you go cold turkey from the Norco as you HAVE to taper the Xanax. If you are interested in Suboxone and are currently seeing a Pain Specialist then they should be able prescribe it for pain even if they are not licensed to prescribe it for addiction.
 
Suboxone for 40mg/day hydrocodone is almost laughably beyond overkill. Most doctors (at least in my experience) wouldn't even bother with 'detox' meds for 40mg/day because its practically the starting dose. You could taper down within say a week and experience next to no physical withdrawals.

It doesn't sound like this is the problem though - it sounds like psychologically you're still chasing that fix but either way, if you have untreated pain its going to be detrimental to you so in my eyes, your emphasis should be on finding a healthy and sustainable way for you to manage your pain and then worry about what you need to do to address any associated psychological issues.

As someone with chronic pain, I understand your anger at your doctor for being unwilling to prescribe stronger painkillers but if you're at all using the medication for a buzz now, do you think that will get better if your supply grows substantially? Its easy to tell yourself now that if your pain is treated your desire to use will magically disappear but this is rarely the case in people who have a history of recreational use/abuse.

While earlier I mentioned suboxone as inappropriate for detox purposes, you may want to discuss temgesic patches or other forms of buprenorphine as a way to manage your pain (although this certainly wouldn't be my first suggestion).

What is exactly causing the pain and what treatments have you tried for it aside from the medications you listed? People often ignore the rather large scope of options out there due to the ease of taking pills and/or their unwillingness to put the work in requisite of many other options. Its easy to pop a pill while its difficult to do daily physical therapy, lose weight, change your diet and lifestyle, etc.
 
Cane, I think you hit the nail on the head and got the point I was trying to get, across. My poor ability to convey my message along with my poor writing skills are really showing today.

I think you are 100% right about their being a bigger issue here as the OP’s response to not being able to get stronger pain killers is to just get off of them instead of addressing the core issues.

Still I think that his medications do need to be addressed because his is obviously headed down a bad path. Best case scenario he is going to run out very early and end up detoxing that way or he is going to seek other sources out and end up in a far worse situation.

It is a difficult situation as it sounds very similar to mine and I know that just trying to ignore the pain will in the end not solve the problem.

Do we currently have a bupe patch available in the US? I know I have heard about it and read it was becoming available but have never actually seen or heard of someone on it.

Maybe we can get a little more info from the OP???
 
Oh Yea! That’s right I remember now because I thought it was funny because I believe the proliferation of Suboxone (buprenorphine) is largely connected to the rise and eventual fall of Oxycontin.

Prudue just wanted to get in on the bupe money they were loosing to RB.
 
^ well, suboxone is produced by Reckitt Benckiser and Purdue's Butrans is indicated for pain management, not maintenance. Butrans patches come in doses of 5-20µg/hour so they range from .12mg/day-.48mg/day... doses that aren't really sufficient for many looking to maintain on and/or block other opioids.
 
ONandOFF777 said:
Cane, I think you hit the nail on the head and got the point I was trying to get, across. My poor ability to convey my message along with my poor writing skills are really showing today.

I think you are 100% right about their being a bigger issue here as the OP’s response to not being able to get stronger pain killers is to just get off of them instead of addressing the core issues.

Still I think that his medications do need to be addressed because his is obviously headed down a bad path. Best case scenario he is going to run out very early and end up detoxing that way or he is going to seek other sources out and end up in a far worse situation.

It is a difficult situation as it sounds very similar to mine and I know that just trying to ignore the pain will in the end not solve the problem.

Do we currently have a bupe patch available in the US? I know I have heard about it and read it was becoming available but have never actually seen or heard of someone on it.

Maybe we can get a little more info from the OP???
Click to expand...

my situation is if the doc would change my meds to longer half life meds with no APAP (already got a prob liver) I could got to work and get off disability.
My doc won't help and now i find myself relapsing after finding where my wife hides my meds. I'v stolen ten pills. Of that I am ashamed

i'm in pain even with what I take. If i can't get meds that effectively treat pain well enough, than why keep taking my current meds that are doing more to harm my liver than to treat my pain.
I'll always be a addict recovering or not and that's my dilemma.
I am afraid I will shoot myself in the foot when I next see him. When i posted above that he won't give me stronger meds it is not because I have actually asked him yet.

i say he won't increase the amount due to things he says wduringin office visits. Things like,"You are taking a lot of medicine".

i know it is illegal for a doctor to dispense meds to to feed an addict's habit and I would expect the doc to cover himself. But like someone said "it's only 40mgs aday".

The doc will also say , "I have to treat you if I am going to keep dispensing this much medicine."

He also said the same thing when he was giving me Tylenol 3.

But he gives me test tat have nothing to do with pain, like sleep studies and balance testing. Said they were all related.

As of now I am expected to start balance therapy on my next appointment.

he'll cut me off if i don't do the test. He did it once before.

i have gone thru periods where I did not need pain meds but I did not work either. A car accident is what I am out on disability for now.

I'll make this brief.

before this doc I was seeing another guy..a licensed pain GP. I was taking 50mgs of Narco 10 with him. He wanted to put me on Perks. But my wife nixed the idea (she's the custodian of my meds and does not like that i take opoids. I get shit all the time..but that's a diff story)
I went in th hospital and had a seizure of some type. Was in a week. They tapeded my 50mg to ten a day. I got out and the diagnosis on the discharge was "narcotic withdrawal". WTF??? I was taking my 50mg like I always had whenI went in. They gave no doctor to follow up. We all know that means they don't want to fuck witha guy they consider a Drug seeker". Made me angry. That was not me . Iwas 100%compliant with my docs treatment.

But my back was not hurting and i did not crave pills. Went back to work full time. Back acts up, and I mean bad pain. Now I am seeing the doc iam with now. My old doc won't touch me. Don't know why. office girl says hes slowly cutting his patient list because he was retiring.


Current doc starts me off on thweak stuff and over the years I finally progrssed to where I am now, at 40mg.

So hwon't give me the loger acting meds tha I would need fewer of and he will cutme off if I don't do his unrelated pain test.

I am better off with out this doc.

Open to comments and suggestions.
 
I would try to find a different doctor if possible.I know it costs money in your country but,damn it doesn't sound like your doctor has any sympathy or empathy.

I would tell your wife your in pain and if you honestly need pain management then so be it.
Also,is it really illegal in the US for doctors to prescribe an addict their d.o.c for maintaining them or tapering?I personally find that barbaric.

EDIT:1000 posts finally
 
OntarioGuy said:
I would try to find a different doctor if possible.I know it costs money in your country but,damn it doesn't sound like your doctor has any sympathy or empathy.

I would tell your wife your in pain and if you honestly need pain management then so be it.
Also,is it really illegal in the US for doctors to prescribe an addict their d.o.c for maintaining them or tapering?I personally find that barbaric.

EDIT:1000 posts finally
Click to expand...

Yeah and is is a good law barring legalized opiate. But the fucking DEA keeps raising the bar on what an addict is. Makes it harder to prove a doc is trating people with honest pain.
 
^ I wasn't aware the DEA defined addiction - what exactly are you referring to? I'm interested in learning more about this.
 
Cane2theLeft said:
^ I wasn't aware the DEA defined addiction - what exactly are you referring to? I'm interested in learning more about this.
Click to expand...

The law was enacted about 1912 and called "The Clean food and Medicine Act".

There were so many Snake Oil salesman selling syrups that claim they cured everything from goat to cancer.

They all contained opium. Also at the turn of the twentieth century docs were allowed to dispense morphine and other opiates with limit. It created a generation of junkies.
The act was passed requiring medicinal products to reveal on the label what it's ingredients are. Since the awareness of opiate addiction had been risen by the media of the day. the opiate laced meds and some containing known poisons vanished.
Time passed and there was a lot of back and forth over states right not have their docs interfered with (because most of high society was loving opiate highs. But by all means don't let the laborer or the black man have any opiates. They haven't the intellect to control themselves).

The end being that docs had to now keep records and write scrips for people who wanted opiates. The establishment of an enforcement arm of the Interior Department or Department of Agriculture, I don't know which. it would evolve into today's DEA.

Ok, so we had an entire generation that was hooked on Morphine and while it still legal, Heroine. Ironic. Heroine was invented to be a cure for Morphine addiction.

Look at the name they gave Hero-ine. The proper noun or a female hero. I am still shaking my head over that.

Well, when the Act was passed it was determined heroin had no medical value and was just a drug used. Many drugs that were considered therapeutic were kept.

Cocaine once was used to treat depression. Go to shrink, "I feel bad doc..depressed" Shrink, "NO PROB! Just sniff this powder like snuff and you'll be ok. When you feel bad come back, I got more."
People were dropping like flies from heart attacks and aneurysms.
Autopsy's and knowledge of the persons usage put cocaine on the forbidden list too.

Government decided that controlling the the opiate med supply was not enough.
They outlawed opium poppies and passed a law making it unlawful to prescribe opiate to a known addict.

Ok, so you go to a place in town where you are a stranger, make up a story up you were hurt in an industrial accident, common for the time, and the doc treats your pain with morphine and gives you morphine to take home and a works.

That was when the prohibition of opiates started. Of course over the last hundred years the laws have gotten stricter on treating chronic pain. Now guys like me have to suffer because docs don't even want to touch chronic pain patients.

So a guy who has a history of on and off short or long duration use of opoid pain meds as is my case they consider me a risk. My history as one doc who turned me away long ago said, "Your history looks to much like a Drug Seekers profile. I can't treat you." What he was saying was I am an addict the way he reads my history so even though I am in pain he still won't treat me for fear of breaking the law.

I go on because I am a historian at heart.
 
<snip>

You didn't answer my question about how the DEA is 'raising the bar on what an addict is'.

I've been studying addiction and addiction treatment formally for a few years now and I've never seen a DEA definition of what addiction is so I'm a little lost about what you're talking about.

Lastly, how do you quantify the claim that during the historical period you're referring to, 'a whole generation' was addicted to opiates? Its been a while since I've seen the figures, but I don't remember the overall addiction rates ever getting very high let alone approaching anything close to warranting a claim that an entire generation was addicted.
 
Last edited:
Cane2theLeft said:
Lastly, how do you quantify the claim that during the historical period you're referring to, 'a whole generation' was addicted to opiates? Its been a while since I've seen the figures, but I don't remember the overall addiction rates ever getting very high let alone approaching anything close to warranting a claim that an entire generation was addicted.
Click to expand...

They weren't. The highest opiate addiction rates may have been after the Civil War, where many soldiers had morphine habits, but that still represented a small proportion of the population. Incidentally, there wasn't much of a social stigma against it at the time, as it was viewed as "the soldier's disease" rather than a moral failing or weakness. I doubt that the average victim of an industrial accident in the early 1900s had the wherewithal, or desire, to consult a doctor or pharmacist, let alone afford an admittedly cheaper habit compared to today's standards.

Even when cocaine was legal, the majority of the population was not addicted. It's probably a more recent phenomenon that Americans have the attitude that medications can cure their ailments, risk free; certainly, the advent of televised pharmaceutical ads have increased the receptiveness of the average person toward taking medication, even for pain.

TL;DR, I don't think there was ever a "generation of junkies."

Also, I don't think the DEA has standards for addiction. Addiction is viewed as a medical/psychological problem, and as such, the only criteria for addiction that I can think of that has been formalized and accepted by professionals are the DSM-IV definitions of substance abuse and substance dependence.
 
ITT: The history channel show "Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way" nearly verbatim.
 
I am not an addiction expert and am hoping that you don't take my post as being anything more than a guy who has read books on the subject since i suffer the addiction and am repeating the history as well I remember it.

I was very loose in my language when I mention the DEA. It didn't answer your question (which i think you already know the answer to any way since you are studying addiction treatment). The govt sets the criteria for what an addict is. And the criteria is set at such a degree that almost any opoid scrip written brushes up against the law because it is so strict.

This may fly in your face because your are studying addiction treatment and because you are a mod, but I think u were just testing me, for what I don't know.
 
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