Psychedelics and Shamanism

[thoughtsUnThought]

coming from personal shamanic experience....the plant teachers, while being all-powerful, greatly profound, and the holders of infinite potential, they are not required for shamanic practice. nor are they required for entrance into what you all are referring to as the 'spirit world'.

i receive immensely profound experiences when i meet with my plant teachers, and i receive much healing...but one who hasn't access to the higher realms while not under the psychedelics' influence, isn't much of a shaman in my opinion.

and i can see both sides of the coin in terms of you alls' debate over intoxication vs psychedelic mind expansion. surely the cognitive coherence of the psychedelic experience is more conducive to receiving insight than the GABA neuro-slow-firing of alcohol. but the intention and the setting and the individual is largely going to decide what the experience brings...as well as what the experience's integrative insight is. i'm sure there are some people who wind up firing absolutely random neuro-patterns on psychedelics, and whom take little to nothing in terms of insight or development from the psychedelic experience. and i'm sure there are people who will have deep revelations from alcohol inebriation.

myself, alcohol does nothing for me, so i never consume it. i become 'wobbly' and the noticeable toxicity on my body keeps me completely uninterested. whereas, the sacred mushrooms, the sacred cactus, these plants do help to guide me in my development, and they help my to heal and make sense of my life and the world around me...not to mention their helping me to understand what my place is, and what i need to do in this world to make a positive and tangible impact.

i know plenty of deep people, plenty of people who receive tremendous insight from the psychedelic experience, and a few others who seem to reach the 'higher realms' through the consumption of these plants....are they shaman though? no.

even stepping outside of the cultural and social application of the shaman, the ones who have been called into these realms and are in direct connection with the heavenly spirits in their daily lives are largely few and far between.

while i am still young, and still have much growth to procure, My Life is These Realms....and the according bridging of divine potential into the corporeal physical world. do i call myself a shaman? no. however, i can see a large difference in the way i am 'taken in' by the heavenly spirits, and i have been told my purpose. when the time is right, and i have undergone the appropriate 'initiation rites' i will be a shaman, i know this. for now though, i am simply one who is in connection with the absolute potentials, and one whose sole purpose is doing everything i can to bring about what i know must be changed in this world....how do i know? because this is what i do, what must be done. i do what must be done. and i can feel the effect, i can see the effect.

the shaman is not simply one who climbs into these higher realms...they are different from the rest in the fact that, they serve as a 'hub' for the energy networks around them....when i stray from my path, when i 'do wrong' (taking into account, i Know what is Right, for myself at least) sickness strikes the world, and the people around me. when i do right...every day is a step towards the ability to heal and cause direct and effective change in the energy currents around me...how do i know this? because i pay attention. we all are connected to the others around us, and the world around us. but not all of us are 'required' to 'do the right thing' for the sake of the future...many of us are simply deciding who we are by our actions.

the shaman can stop the wind from destroying his city...can divert the lava flow...
or he can watch, from the eye-ball seat of eternity as everything is destroyed. and the tears of failure burn right through even shamanic flesh.

which one happens? ^^ that is decided by his connection to the heavenly spirits. the 'favor' or the 'winding up of what it is that happens', though seemingly random, is decided by the work he has done. he is the one who is in contact with the Manifestation of Potential into Physical Occurrence....the favor of the heavens.

my point is, it's not just about tripping. or even cultural application. shamans are decided as the story writers for the chapter they are living in.

 

[jamaica0535]

Simply a catalyst that pushes you into your subconscious.

Psychedelics really do little other than show you the door, your the one that has to go through it. The thing is, its just usually much easier to find on psychedelics.

 

[High Yogi]

Excuse me, but you don't have to resort to ad hominems when I can easily say the same about you...

1) do you know what the definition of the word intoxication is? Just because it has "toxic" in the etymology doesn't mean that it is limited to substances that are toxic to the body.

2) Keep in mind that I'm playing devil's advocate for the most part and of course I agree that psychedelics generally provide more insight than alcohol (what are you, stupid? 8) ), but I think you need to be a little less black and white about it too. At any rate, the point is that "revelations" made on psychedelics often do NOT provide long lasting insight into the nature of reality. They can, but I've had many great personal insights into my own emotions while drunk. Does this happen as often as during a good cubensis trip? Of course not, but it can happen.

I'm not going to address your last paragraph because you aren't actually making real arguments. Calm down, dude.

Please forgive my jerkish sarcasm. I just get frustrated when fools try and compare alcohol to psychedelics, Its ridiculous. Alkso, please know that i am calm.

You said that the word intoxication isnt limited to substances that are toxic, i agree, but alcohol IS toxic. Whats your argument here? You can say you are intoxicated off marijuana too, that doesnt make it toxic. These are just words and word jugglery. You often hear police calling meth and crack "narcotic" are they "narcotic"? No! Narcotic drugs are downers and stupors. This is just a misuse of words. Perhaps there are many definitions to the word intoxication. IMO i dont like it too much, to me it implies toxicity, which i wouldnt like to think of psychedelics as.

You also said that psychedelics often times do NOT provide lasting insight into the nature of reality? I disagree. Each psychedelic experience ive ever had only helped me mature and grow in a positive way through teaching me my own faults/errors, and also showing me that of which was previously incomprehensible. Second, you neither need psychedelics or alcohol to have these revelations, because they come from our higher selves. Our higher selves are always there to guide us. When we take psychedelics they put us in touch with our higher selves, maybe alcohol can do that too, i just feel like alcohol is a more negative approach. I used to drink myself... UNTIL i found psychedelics. Alcohol is more of a social thing, or perhaps a means to escape. Psychedelics, IMO, are far more sacred and spiritual. It is through this understanding and sacred rituals done with the psychedelics that determine their outcome. Im sure you know of "set, setting, and drug"

 

[High Yogi]

Doesn't that sound like the state produced by psychedelics?

EDIT: WOOO 1000 posts

Yeah, there are many definitions. I dont favor that word for psychedelics though, but thats just my opinion. Congrats on 1k posts bro :D

 

[High Yogi]

coming from personal shamanic experience....the plant teachers, while being all-powerful, greatly profound, and the holders of infinite potential, they are not required for shamanic practice. nor are they required for entrance into what you all are referring to as the 'spirit world'.

i receive immensely profound experiences when i meet with my plant teachers, and i receive much healing...but one who hasn't access to the higher realms while not under the psychedelics' influence, isn't much of a shaman in my opinion.

and i can see both sides of the coin in terms of you alls' debate over intoxication vs psychedelic mind expansion. surely the cognitive coherence of the psychedelic experience is more conducive to receiving insight than the GABA neuro-slow-firing of alcohol. but the intention and the setting and the individual is largely going to decide what the experience brings...as well as what the experience's integrative insight is. i'm sure there are some people who wind up firing absolutely random neuro-patterns on psychedelics, and whom take little to nothing in terms of insight or development from the psychedelic experience. and i'm sure there are people who will have deep revelations from alcohol inebriation.

myself, alcohol does nothing for me, so i never consume it. i become 'wobbly' and the noticeable toxicity on my body keeps me completely uninterested. whereas, the sacred mushrooms, the sacred cactus, these plants do help to guide me in my development, and they help my to heal and make sense of my life and the world around me...not to mention their helping me to understand what my place is, and what i need to do in this world to make a positive and tangible impact.

i know plenty of deep people, plenty of people who receive tremendous insight from the psychedelic experience, and a few others who seem to reach the 'higher realms' through the consumption of these plants....are they shaman though? no.

even stepping outside of the cultural and social application of the shaman, the ones who have been called into these realms and are in direct connection with the heavenly spirits in their daily lives are largely few and far between.

while i am still young, and still have much growth to procure, My Life is These Realms....and the according bridging of divine potential into the corporeal physical world. do i call myself a shaman? no. however, i can see a large difference in the way i am 'taken in' by the heavenly spirits, and i have been told my purpose. when the time is right, and i have undergone the appropriate 'initiation rites' i will be a shaman, i know this. for now though, i am simply one who is in connection with the absolute potentials, and one whose sole purpose is doing everything i can to bring about what i know must be changed in this world....how do i know? because this is what i do, what must be done. i do what must be done. and i can feel the effect, i can see the effect.

the shaman is not simply one who climbs into these higher realms...they are different from the rest in the fact that, they serve as a 'hub' for the energy networks around them....when i stray from my path, when i 'do wrong' (taking into account, i Know what is Right, for myself at least) sickness strikes the world, and the people around me. when i do right...every day is a step towards the ability to heal and cause direct and effective change in the energy currents around me...how do i know this? because i pay attention. we all are connected to the others around us, and the world around us. but not all of us are 'required' to 'do the right thing' for the sake of the future...many of us are simply deciding who we are by our actions.

the shaman can stop the wind from destroying his city...can divert the lava flow...
or he can watch, from the eye-ball seat of eternity as everything is destroyed. and the tears of failure burn right through even shamanic flesh.

which one happens? ^^ that is decided by his connection to the heavenly spirits. the 'favor' or the 'winding up of what it is that happens', though seemingly random, is decided by the work he has done. he is the one who is in contact with the Manifestation of Potential into Physical Occurrence....the favor of the heavens.

my point is, it's not just about tripping. or even cultural application. shamans are decided as the story writers for the chapter they are living in.

Excellent read, friend. I like what you said there. I agree for the most part. You said that psychedelics are NOT required to be a shaman. I think this is true to an extent. If one may reach the other side through deep meditation, mantras, or even perhaps Reiki(such as myself), and can use these means and understanding brought upon through the experiences of the other world to heal, than that, in my opinion, is a shaman. However, I also feel somewhere in my heart that the origin of shamanism ARE psychedelics. Look at the Ayahuasca Shamans of the Amazon. I think the shamans who directly interact with the natural environment around them and use psycho-spiritual plants for altered states and the expansion of consciousness are more affective than those who do not use them. This is so because the plants open us up to higher realities that could not have been previously reached. And maybe they can be reached, however it would take a LOOOONG TIME!

About you not calling yourself a shaman. I know it probably isnt best to label ourselves as anything, because we are all a mysterious something that cannot be restricted by words or language, however, I also believe, that in order for us to advance at a more efficient rate, We have to use words and language to develop an understanding and grow. If I am doing shamanic rituals and practices, and i am not calling myself a shaman, then i am merely holding myself back. On the contrary, If i realize I am that of which i do, then i feel i am a shaman because i do shamanic practices and rituals. This is seeing yourself in a positive light. If i am trying to be a firefighter and im taking the training course, but all the while im taking the training course i keep telling myself "your no fire fighter", then i wont be a very good firefighter, will i?. We have to see ourselves in a positive light. Do not be afraid to call yourself a shaman. You are what you are doing. This is a very challenging thing to do though because like you said, and i agree, shamans are a sort of energy hub for the networks around them. This is a lot of responsibility. This is also why i have such respect for the shamans and what they are doing.

 

[Nateup]

Interesting discussion - legit points from both sides, although I wonder if they completely understand eachother. I get the idea that there actually is agreement - just less so on the methods to express it.

One thing I do have a problem with is the absolute dismissal of alcohol as having any spiritual potential. I think that whoever said the most important part is the intent and meaning that is given to the experience. You get out of it what you put into it. Alcohol, when done right - the right music, setting, and effort... can be extremely spiritual. I have definitely had a couple very insightful experiences with proper, conscious use of alcohol.

Sure, it MAY not have as much potential for everyone as a chemical... side by side with lsd... but shit everybody is different and I think to just outright call a chemical worthless like that is just as guilty as when people consider psychedelics to be nothing but drugs to "get fucked up on"... how is doing the same thing with alcohol any better? (getting sooo mad about the comparison of alcohol and psychedelics for that reason is really just as bad as them merging alcohol and all "harmful" drugs together with psychedelics as the same thing - do you get what I'm saying? its sort of hypocritical).

Personally I have been at music events where I consumed a few alcoholic beverages for the purpose of loosening my social inhibitions... in order to connect better with the other attendants. EDM events, (real) hip hop shows, etc... it was consciously planned for spiritual purpose - to better melt into the "oneness" that definitely takes place at music events like this (when things work out well). I have had some VERY intense absolutely spiritual experiences with the help of alcohol at events like this... an at home. Its only a tool - if one learns how to use it correctly it is very useful. I find that none of these substances have any use on their own... for me personally. I get out what I put into them - even alcohol!

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

i dig what you're saying, highyogi, about the labels and not letting labels (or the lackthereof) hold one back from achieving success in one's field. though, to me, the holding off of referring to myself as a shaman is out of respect for those who have undergone full initiation rites. as you are well aware of, i'm sure, most every (if not every single) culture with shamanic practice has very stringent initiation rites before one is truly a 'shaman'.

lol, i feel your firefighter analogy is a bit out of context. it makes sense, but there is a difference between the half empty/full approach to labeling one's self. the firefighter could also say 'soon i'm gonna be an official firefighter' and use his lack of current achievement as ambition to go the full mile in making himself into what he dreams to be.

when i go through the full purification rituals which i feel necessary to truly 'be a shaman' i will have graduated from a 'shamanic practitioner' to 'shaman'. i don't feel held back, or slowed down by not calling myself a shaman currently. i just feel it is respectful to keep that boundary between 'one who is practicing the art' and 'one whose art is mastered'.

to each their own though, if you feel better off calling yourself a shaman, then i suppose you should do so. though i must say that there is also, i feel, a difference between having an energetic attunment or energetic clairvoyance and having access to the wisdom of, and input into what is decided upon to occur by, the heavenly spirits. i have a few friends who practice reiki who are very in tune, and very deep people, but they are not (in my opinion) shaman by (my) definition. i see auras, and am able to perform energy healing, but my ability to ask for potentials to be granted consciously, and recieve a bold response, is what seperates my shamanic work, from my energy work.

the shaman work, from what i've gathered, is the work of the spirit...not energy healing. the energy flows according to the spirit interaction.

^none of that is to discount any of your work though, friend. i don't know who you are, and you could very well be 'shamanicly endowed'..who am i to say? i'm just drawing the line between the 'sub-practices' of energetic mysticism. for i feel true shamanism, by my definition, is a whole different line of work, and is much less commonly 'allowed' than energy healing work (ie pranic, reiki, etc).

 

[Legerity]

I would have to agree that there is more involved than the substance itself. You yourself may have had insight from each psychedelic experience that has lasted, but this is certainly not the case with everybody. For many it serves a recreational purpose and nothing more. There's nothing wrong with that, just different intentions have different results.

I've had some amazing beautiful experiences that I feel have created permanent changes in me. I've also had some dark terrifying experiences that I've learned from. I consider the darkness to be part of the package and unless we are willing to experience complete terror and the fear of death that we will not be able to experience the full beautify from the "positive" end of the spectrum. But that's just my own belief.

But some of my trip have been completely to escape from how I feel or just to party with friends. So even within the individual the nature of the experience can vary from one trip to another.

I have found the most healing experiences to be the ceremonial use of ayahuasca in within a structured group setting. I will likely eventually stop all other experimentation with psychedelics and focus only on ayahusaca because the energy of the substance and the environment just create an experience that I don't feel I can achieve using other substances from questionable sources on my own or with friends.

That's just my two cents.

 

[nickels]

I happen to agree with you in general, that alcohol is more of a closing than an opening, whereas mushrooms are more of an opening, and I certainly have experienced many, many more truths through mushrooms than alcohol, but I do not think the distinction is quite so black-and-white.

Yeah. For one thing, different chemicals affect people differently, as can be seen especially with the 2-c family.

 

[Ismene]

To get into this we will have to understand the shaman. The shaman is the spiritual chief and leader of the tribe.

How accurate is this Yogi? I've read accounts where the person who used psychedelics was usually the piss-artist of the tribe. They were considered pretty worthless and far from the leader of the tribe. When you read an account of Maria Sabina for example (the alleged "goddess of the mushroom") her life in the tribe wasn't as some big leader - it consisted of being battered by her drunken husband and doing a few mushroom sessions to try and pay the bills.

A big misunderstanding is that shamens would sit round doing mushrooms with other members of the tribe - that's not how psychedelic shamans in many tribes worked. They would take the mushrooms and then report back what their opinion was - there's a story of a retarded kid going to Maria Sabina for information about his health and her saying "He's going to die" and his family busting into tears. That's a pretty frightening and unpleasant thing so this alleged "shamanic" use of mushrooms wasn't always positive or beneficial - often it was just some fucking ignoramus tripping and then saying "He's going to die, now give me twenty bucks you gullible fuckers". Not so mystical when you look at the reality of it.

He is the medicine man and bridge to the spirit world. When the tribe or village has a problem, whether it be of someones sickness, who stole the chicken, where the animal game are migrating, etc., they seek the shaman for the unanswerable questions

Isn't there a big difference between a "medicine man" and the guy who uses psychedelics? Native american tribes had medicine men but they wern't necessarily people who used psychedelics. I think there's a lot of confusion between the two - people read about medicine men and then think they all took psychedelics. That's not always the case.

For example, when you look at the witchdoctors in Africa - the power these people had came largely from the placebo effect of primitive people believing their bullshit. All a witchdoctor had to say was "You will die soon" and the person he told it to was so gullible he would start getting ill. Thank god bullshit like this isn't so easily spread to educated people.

 

[Ismene]

ORRR, we can all just get hammered and go fuck some fat bitches before passing out in our own fluids,like grotesque animals.

I full intend to do this later tonight

 

[artic]

First of all, I would like to say that for the most part I agree with the spirit of this thread, and the role of psychedelics in mystical experiences. I think that altering consciousness for the purpose of knowledge and insight is an important part of the human experience.

However, Yogi, I find your "essay" to be completely lacking in context. You should consider your AUDIENCE and PURPOSE before you begin writing. Also, paragraphs are nice. Anyway, who are you writing for? Is this an essay designed to persuade someone who either disagrees with you or hasn't made up their mind? If so, you are not doing a very good job. Please include some data and sources to back up your claims, rather than simple metaphors and anecdotes. If this is designed to be read by people who already agree with you and support your claims, then what is the point? Your essay seems very self gratifying and masturbatory to me.

Your responses to others who question your beliefs are also very telling. You call them stupid, and rant about the evils of alcohol. However, alcohol and cigarettes are the substances that our society allows people to ingest freely. You will need to use them as a tool for comparison when describing the positive effects of the drugs you enjoy, otherwise your audience may have no point of reference.

I think that thoughtsUnThought has a lot of interesting points to make, and you could learn a lot form him/her. He (I am going to use male pronouns since it is the literary standard where gender is unknown) is absolutely right about the firefighter analogy (this is an example of a weak analogy logical fallacy - see link at bottom). As a person who has some knowledge of the fire suppression field, I can state with absolute certainty that there is nothing more dangerous at the scene of a fire than an amateur who considers himself a professional. Without the proper training, guidance, and credentials you can become a danger to yourself and others. Perhaps this analogy still applies to shaman-ism?

When you engage in debate, please consider logical fallacies before responding. Attacking someone's character and making analogies are not effective tools in an argument.

 

[pushlost]

Interesting topic made much less interesting by drug snobbery. I'm guessing the OP is still pretty young based upon their "arguments."

 

[Ismene]

He (I am going to use male pronouns since it is the literary standard where gender is unknown) is absolutely right about the firefighter analogy (this is an example of a weak analogy logical fallacy - see link at bottom). As a person who has some knowledge of the fire suppression field, I can state with absolute certainty that there is nothing more dangerous at the scene of a fire than an amateur who considers himself a professional. Without the proper training, guidance, and credentials you can become a danger to yourself and others. Perhaps this analogy still applies to shaman-ism?

I get your gist artic and agree with it in some ways but I also remember working at a chemical plant where someone called the fire service. I put the fire out before they got there. When they arrived they were very snooty because they didn't like the idea that one guy with a fire extuingisher did a job that 6 "highly trained" men plus a fire engine were going to do.

 

[High Yogi]

Interesting discussion - legit points from both sides, although I wonder if they completely understand eachother. I get the idea that there actually is agreement - just less so on the methods to express it.

One thing I do have a problem with is the absolute dismissal of alcohol as having any spiritual potential. I think that whoever said the most important part is the intent and meaning that is given to the experience. You get out of it what you put into it. Alcohol, when done right - the right music, setting, and effort... can be extremely spiritual. I have definitely had a couple very insightful experiences with proper, conscious use of alcohol.

Sure, it MAY not have as much potential for everyone as a chemical... side by side with lsd... but shit everybody is different and I think to just outright call a chemical worthless like that is just as guilty as when people consider psychedelics to be nothing but drugs to "get fucked up on"... how is doing the same thing with alcohol any better? (getting sooo mad about the comparison of alcohol and psychedelics for that reason is really just as bad as them merging alcohol and all "harmful" drugs together with psychedelics as the same thing - do you get what I'm saying? its sort of hypocritical).

Personally I have been at music events where I consumed a few alcoholic beverages for the purpose of loosening my social inhibitions... in order to connect better with the other attendants. EDM events, (real) hip hop shows, etc... it was consciously planned for spiritual purpose - to better melt into the "oneness" that definitely takes place at music events like this (when things work out well). I have had some VERY intense absolutely spiritual experiences with the help of alcohol at events like this... an at home. Its only a tool - if one learns how to use it correctly it is very useful. I find that none of these substances have any use on their own... for me personally. I get out what I put into them - even alcohol!

I understand. If it works for you in that way then i am all for it. I never intended to argue this. I just mean more or less the majority of the drinkers vs the majority of the trippers. The drinkers tend to be way more negative and depressing than the trippers; id much rather be in a grass field of hippies than a hub or bar. thats just me though. Anything can help someone realize his unity because all really IS one. someONE. :D

 

[High Yogi]

i dig what you're saying, highyogi, about the labels and not letting labels (or the lackthereof) hold one back from achieving success in one's field. though, to me, the holding off of referring to myself as a shaman is out of respect for those who have undergone full initiation rites. as you are well aware of, i'm sure, most every (if not every single) culture with shamanic practice has very stringent initiation rites before one is truly a 'shaman'.

lol, i feel your firefighter analogy is a bit out of context. it makes sense, but there is a difference between the half empty/full approach to labeling one's self. the firefighter could also say 'soon i'm gonna be an official firefighter' and use his lack of current achievement as ambition to go the full mile in making himself into what he dreams to be.

when i go through the full purification rituals which i feel necessary to truly 'be a shaman' i will have graduated from a 'shamanic practitioner' to 'shaman'. i don't feel held back, or slowed down by not calling myself a shaman currently. i just feel it is respectful to keep that boundary between 'one who is practicing the art' and 'one whose art is mastered'.

to each their own though, if you feel better off calling yourself a shaman, then i suppose you should do so. though i must say that there is also, i feel, a difference between having an energetic attunment or energetic clairvoyance and having access to the wisdom of, and input into what is decided upon to occur by, the heavenly spirits. i have a few friends who practice reiki who are very in tune, and very deep people, but they are not (in my opinion) shaman by (my) definition. i see auras, and am able to perform energy healing, but my ability to ask for potentials to be granted consciously, and recieve a bold response, is what seperates my shamanic work, from my energy work.

the shaman work, from what i've gathered, is the work of the spirit...not energy healing. the energy flows according to the spirit interaction.

^none of that is to discount any of your work though, friend. i don't know who you are, and you could very well be 'shamanicly endowed'..who am i to say? i'm just drawing the line between the 'sub-practices' of energetic mysticism. for i feel true shamanism, by my definition, is a whole different line of work, and is much less commonly 'allowed' than energy healing work (ie pranic, reiki, etc).

Yes, I believe you are right. Thanks because that was a nice read. I guess that would be a better way to see things, but i think everything already is pure, perfect and one. The problem is that we have so much cultural contamination. I think shamans step outside of this social programming and into the matrix of the mind and spirit, to return back to his pure self that he already is. It is his return to this perfect or pure state of being that gives him insight, knowledge and wisdom into the nature of things and healing arts. This is a spiritual quest, his return to his own purity and self realization. This is what I said in the end of my short essay. I know there are many different definitions of the shaman, but thats mine. Thanks again

BTW. I guess I shouldnt even call that an essay. Its more of a summary or something, just something I threw together one time out of the blue. I didnt even intend on it being about shamanism. I think it had some good points and would make a great discussion.

 

[IamMe90]

I just think it's pretty simple from an empirical retroanalysis of history that psychedelia is not going to reveal all of the nuances and workings of reality to us in some grand ultimate truth - don't you think that after thousands of years shamans would have figured out the answer to such basic existential and physical questions pertaining to the universe that physicists and philosophers are still debating if psychedelics were such surefire ways of deciphering reality?

It is clear that the majority of great world thinkers made their contributions to the zeitgeist of their times through study, hard work and critical thinking, not simply indulging in psychedelics. These tools (psychedelics) do indeed have the ability to put us in a position to make unique insights and take novel perspectives, but any claim that psychedelics are the keys to unlocking the ultimate truths of reality is an incredibly black and white and childish way of viewing things, almost insulting to the deep complexity and nuanced intricacy of the very universe that you (the shaman) professes to worship. The sad fact is that while psychedelics may provide these valuable tools for those of us who aren't gifted with the innovative genius of master artists and great thinkers, these tools aren't really needed by those master artists and great thinkers. As such I see no reason to put psychedelics on a pedestal as a unique tool to intuiting the truths of reality. I'm also not saying that they couldn't catalyze great thinkers to even greater depths, but they aren't necessary.

Now, let's take a look at the shulgin scale:

If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment.

Now I have seen so many god damn people claiming to reach "rich +4 states" with some sort of frequency, so I'm left with the question, why hasn't the human experimented ended, and indeed why is it fully infantile in its progression? Either people aren't reaching +4 states as claimed - in which case I see no reason to assume that psychedelics can propel one's consciousness to such a state - or the definition of a +4 state is inherently flawed in some way (I wager a mixture of both).

TL;DR: - Shamanism has been around for thousands of years and I don't see them discovering ultimate truths of reality - at least, ones that aren't self-affirming or completely subjective.
- Modern drug users have been claiming to reach states of "ultimate knowledge/perception/truth" with startling frequency for years now on websites like bluelight and yet somehow we haven't figured out how to definitively model the universe, so I gather either the knowledge in such "states" is illusory or there is no possibility of processing such knowledge post-trip. Either way, doesn't seem very "incredible" to me, rather useful in some ways.

 

[High Yogi]

How accurate is this Yogi? I've read accounts where the person who used psychedelics was usually the piss-artist of the tribe. They were considered pretty worthless and far from the leader of the tribe. When you read an account of Maria Sabina for example (the alleged "goddess of the mushroom") her life in the tribe wasn't as some big leader - it consisted of being battered by her drunken husband and doing a few mushroom sessions to try and pay the bills.

A big misunderstanding is that shamens would sit round doing mushrooms with other members of the tribe - that's not how psychedelic shamans in many tribes worked. They would take the mushrooms and then report back what their opinion was - there's a story of a retarded kid going to Maria Sabina for information about his health and her saying "He's going to die" and his family busting into tears. That's a pretty frightening and unpleasant thing so this alleged "shamanic" use of mushrooms wasn't always positive or beneficial - often it was just some fucking ignoramus tripping and then saying "He's going to die, now give me twenty bucks you gullible fuckers". Not so mystical when you look at the reality of it.

He is the medicine man and bridge to the spirit world. When the tribe or village has a problem, whether it be of someones sickness, who stole the chicken, where the animal game are migrating, etc., they seek the shaman for the unanswerable questions

Isn't there a big difference between a "medicine man" and the guy who uses psychedelics? Native american tribes had medicine men but they wern't necessarily people who used psychedelics. I think there's a lot of confusion between the two - people read about medicine men and then think they all took psychedelics. That's not always the case.

For example, when you look at the witchdoctors in Africa - the power these people had came largely from the placebo effect of primitive people believing their bullshit. All a witchdoctor had to say was "You will die soon" and the person he told it to was so gullible he would start getting ill. Thank god bullshit like this isn't so easily spread to educated people.

The shaman is one of the most important members of any society because he IS a link to the spirit world. the spiritual world is the real world and it is from there that this entire physical world manifests. A wise society would not disregard this member as some piss artist. Sure he isnt the alfa male, he isnt a leader in this sense, but he is a leader in the sense of wisdom. Like a guru.

Secondly, your big misunderstanding on shamanism is due to your own ignorance. Youd better do some more research. Have you ever heard of the Ayahuasca Shamans of the Amazon? the shaman takes the medicine, psychedelic, or entheogen, whatever one may wish to call it because its all just labels, this is where the confusion comes in is from the labels, he takes it with the patient and he guides their spirit through a quest to the self, which ends in spiritual rebirth and renewal; the cleansing of the spirit. This solves problems because our physical ailments manifest from the spiritual root of our being. If we dont cleanse the spirit we will never fix our problems. this is why modern day doctors fail so hard because they dont go to the root source of the problem, they only cover it up.

You said "Isn't there a big difference between a "medicine man" and the guy who uses psychedelics? Native american tribes had medicine men but they wern't necessarily people who used psychedelics. I think there's a lot of confusion between the two - people read about medicine men and then think they all took psychedelics. That's not always the case. "

Yes that is true, not all of them use entheogens, but i think the most effective ones do. Terence Mckenna has tons of research to back this claim.

And about your withdoctor analogy, that is nothing at all like what im talking about. It in a sense it is because the doctor is planting a seed spiritualy that manifests over time in a physical happening(his death) The shaman does this same thing very similar but for healing and deeper into the spirit(because they are on entheogens)

 

[High Yogi]

I just think it's pretty simple from an empirical retroanalysis of history that psychedelia is not going to reveal all of the nuances and workings of reality to us in some grand ultimate truth - don't you think that after thousands of years shamans would have figured out the answer to such basic existential and physical questions pertaining to the universe that physicists and philosophers are still debating if psychedelics were such surefire ways of deciphering reality?

It is clear that the majority of great world thinkers made their contributions to the zeitgeist of their times through study, hard work and critical thinking, not simply indulging in psychedelics. These tools (psychedelics) do indeed have the ability to put us in a position to make unique insights and take novel perspectives, but any claim that psychedelics are the keys to unlocking the ultimate truths of reality is an incredibly black and white and childish way of viewing things, almost insulting to the deep complexity and nuanced intricacy of the very universe that you (the shaman) professes to worship. The sad fact is that while psychedelics may provide these valuable tools for those of us who aren't gifted with the innovative genius of master artists and great thinkers, these tools aren't really needed by those master artists and great thinkers. As such I see no reason to put psychedelics on a pedestal as a unique tool to intuiting the truths of reality. I'm also not saying that they couldn't catalyze great thinkers to even greater depths, but they aren't necessary.

Now, let's take a look at the shulgin scale:



Now I have seen so many god damn people claiming to reach "rich +4 states" with some sort of frequency, so I'm left with the question, why hasn't the human experimented ended, and indeed why is it fully infantile in its progression? Either people aren't reaching +4 states as claimed - in which case I see no reason to assume that psychedelics can propel one's consciousness to such a state - or the definition of a +4 state is inherently flawed in some way (I wager a mixture of both).

TL;DR: - Shamanism has been around for thousands of years and I don't see them discovering ultimate truths of reality - at least, ones that aren't self-affirming or completely subjective.
- Modern drug users have been claiming to reach states of "ultimate knowledge/perception/truth" with startling frequency for years now on websites like bluelight and yet somehow we haven't figured out how to definitively model the universe, so I gather either the knowledge in such "states" is illusory or there is no possibility of processing such knowledge post-trip. Either way, doesn't seem very "incredible" to me, rather useful in some ways.

LOLOL! The maya had perfect understanding on this stuff. They used mushrooms several times and even have proof of their mastery over time and space. Have you ever heard of apocalypse Island?

Your going to sit there and tell me that psychedelics/entheogens dont have anything to do with us realizing ourselves and the unity within? That they arent necessary? Sure they may not be necessary, but then we wouldnt have had had shulgin, or alan watts, or the maya, or half of the other great thinkers of our time who looked deep down into the nature of themselves and the basic principles of reality. What are you implying here? That they cant reach us to the ultimate truth? the ultimate truth is love. look at the hippy movement. And also, I believe they are amazing tools for us to help advance ourselves and thoughts, as they are conscious expanding. they help creativity and imagination. "Science does not know its debt to imagination" -Einstein

 

[IamMe90]

The shaman is one of the most important members of any society because he IS a link to the spirit world. the spiritual world is the real world and it is from there that this entire physical world manifests. A wise society would not disregard this member as some piss artist. Sure he isnt the alfa male, he isnt a leader in this sense, but he is a leader in the sense of wisdom. Like a guru.

Please read the above post (not mine) about making masturbatory speeches. Please at least attempt to justify your claims about the link to the spirit world rather than assuming them as already affirmed, because you're not going to convince anyone who doesn't believe in shamanism this way. You know why we don't believe in shamanism? Because not all of us believe in a spirit world that is the "real world."

Secondly, your big misunderstanding on shamanism is due to your own ignorance. Youd better do some more research. Have you ever heard of the Ayahuasca Shamans of the Amazon? the shaman takes the medicine, psychedelic, or entheogen, whatever one may wish to call it because its all just labels, this is where the confusion comes in is from the labels, he takes it with the patient and he guides their spirit through a quest to the self, which ends in spiritual rebirth and renewal; the cleansing of the spirit. This solves problems because our physical ailments manifest from the spiritual root of our being. If we dont cleanse the spirit we will never fix our problems. this is why modern day doctors fail so hard because they dont go to the root source of the problem, they only cover it up.

You think we don't know who the ayahuasca shamans are? Please. Now, this:

the shaman takes the medicine, psychedelic, or entheogen, whatever one may wish to call it because its all just labels, this is where the confusion comes in is from the labels

This in particular really bothered me. These are not just "labels" - modern medicine and entheogenic practices are very, very different. One can save someone from dying of terminal cancer, the other can't. One can keep me, a type 1 diabetic alive, and I highly doubt a psychedelic can do that. In fact, I know it can't.

If you're saying my diabetes is the result of spiritual problems, then you're tragically deluded.

You said "Isn't there a big difference between a "medicine man" and the guy who uses psychedelics? Native american tribes had medicine men but they wern't necessarily people who used psychedelics. I think there's a lot of confusion between the two - people read about medicine men and then think they all took psychedelics. That's not always the case."

Yes that is true, not all of them use entheogens, but i think the most effective ones do. Terence Mckenna has tons of research to back this claim.

Honestly, you're citing Terra McKenna as legitimate research?