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stomach ulcers and drugs and alcohol

Theres a difference between a peptic ulcer and a full on stomach ulcer which is caused by bacteria which those 2 Aussie doctors got the nobel prize for figuring out.

A peptic ulcer is like a graze on the stomach lining and is generally caused by NSAIDs and has nothing to do with bacteria. An actual stomach ulcer on the other hand is caused by the bacteria and requires anti-biotics and is more of a wound on the stomach lining (much worse). If psytaco was not prescribed anti-biotics and probably had a blood test? to verify it wasn't that kind of ulcer (as the bacteria that causes full on stomach ulcers will show up) then I was under the assumption it was a peptic ulcer which should heal in time.
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That is incorrect; a peptic ulcer just refers to ulceration along any point of the gastro-intestinal tract, whereas a gastric ulcer specifically means it is located in the stomach. There are also duodenal ulcers and ulcers of the esophagus. :)

ETA: Sorry lefty! I must be out of it... :D
 
^ haha dude that nicotine study is from 1982...
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Also, so what if it's from 1982? The study is quantitative rather then qualitative.

I doubt human physiology has changed so much in the last 29 years that we respond differently to nicotine now.
 
1982 is a tad out of date in terms of scientific reverlance however if there isnt any newer studies then it still could be reverlant.

Im pretty the dude drank a test tube of h pylori to prove ppl wrong about bactera in stomach causing ulcers
 
Mr Blonde said:
Also, so what if it's from 1982? The study is quantitative rather then qualitative.

I doubt human physiology has changed so much in the last 29 years that we respond differently to nicotine now.
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I know, but you can't deny that science and medicine have advanced in leaps in bounds over the last 30 years. Plenty of things that were 'known' or 'proven' have since been disproven. Not saying it's wrong, just that there's no doubt newer information. You seem smart enough to not need to ask this question...
 
^ But they don't make any claims about what the mechanism is behind any association, only that it would be due to some as of then unknown mechanism.

The study is mainly providing data, and like I said unless our physiological response to nicotine has drastically changed since, that data is likely to still be accurate.

Is what I'm saying getting across? I understand what you are saying, that scientific understanding of processes changes over time, but in this case there was just collection of quantitative data and the duty of finding a mechanism was left to others.

ETA: Also, I stated in my first post that the findings were that any association between nicotine and gastric ulcers or healing of ulcers was unknown in the study. No one has posted any newer findings that show a mechanism.
 
Mr Blonde said:
^ But they don't make any claims about what the mechanism is behind any association, only that it would be due to some as of then unknown mechanism.

The study is mainly providing data, and like I said unless our physiological response to nicotine has drastically changed since, that data is likely to still be accurate.

Is what I'm saying getting across? I understand what you are saying, that scientific understanding of processes changes over time, but in this case there was just collection of quantitative data and the duty of finding a mechanism was left to others.
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Sorry I didn't want to get too off-topic discussing this (not really helpful to the OP), but there are many reasons why old papers can be inaccurate, even if they have minimal discussion or interpretation of their results. Reviewing processes were less rigorous/competitive, methods were different, instruments were less advanced, assumed knowledge changes, etc.

For this paper in particular you must consider that groups of 8 and 5 participants are very small sample sizes and would result in a correspondingly low statistical power. Furthermore, they also mention other limitations (e.g. use of neutral red dye, study performed in stimulated state). Papers of this nature ought to discuss statistical methods more than this also, but I suppose it would be of little use with such a small sample. They even state that "as acid secretion and neutral red clearance declined simultaneously, it is not possible to decide whether the fall in neutral red clearance is secondary to an inhibition of acid secretion." - leading them to say that "On the basis of the results presented, however, it seems unlikely that nicotine exerts any ulcerogenic action via a reduction of mucosal blood flow" - a rather flimsy conclusion from the evidence provided. They didn't demonstrate anything convincingly, hence the phrase "it seems unlikely".

Mr Blonde said:
ETA: Also, I stated in my first post that the findings were that any association between nicotine and gastric ulcers or healing of ulcers was unknown in the study. No one has posted any newer findings that show a mechanism.
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Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A search for papers discussing nicotine and ulcers returned dozens of results :\
 
Not quite sure what you're getting at here. A search for papers discussing nicotine and ulcers returned dozens of results
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Post up a paper discussing the ulcerogenic mechanism of action of nicotine then. A quick Google Scholar search brings up a 2004 abstract that also states that nicotine aggravates risk factors for ulcers and attenuates defensive factors, but does not make claims as to direct ulcer causing capacity. They also state that further research is needed to find the causes.

The statement that nicotine is either not associated with cause of peptic ulcers, or is associated through some other mechanism, is based on a lack of a mechanism of action. Secretion of acid is inhibited, and whilst blood flow the mucosa is also inhibited it is relatively minor in comparison with the acid inhibition. This reduced blood flow obviously would be detrimental to the healing of existing ulcers, but there is no evidence that nicotine can cause ulcers itself without the presence of other risk factors; primarily, H. pylori infection or NSAID use.


Effect of nicotine and caffeine pretreatment on the gastric mucosal damage induced by aspirin, phenylbutazone, and reserpine in rats

Found no evidence that nicotine or caffeine induced ulcers themselves, but affirms that they increase risk of developing ulcers caused by known ulceratives.

Sorry, you are right that this is off-topic but it's not often I get a chance to have this type of discussion.

OP, I hope this is encouraging you to learn more about risk factors for ulcers and how to avoid aggravating them and increasing the healing time. :)
 
I think your both right.

Yes Mr. Blonde is correct in that the pathology or physiological action caused by nicotine in relation to stomach ulcers would have changed little if at all in the 30 or so years since that study was published.

However, Divine Moments does have a point in stating that scientific research is continually evolving, as are the paradigms, theories and methodologies used to study pathology.

I spent 4 years studying neuropsychology, and I know that in least this area of the health scientices there have been revolutionary advancements in our understanding of psychiatric illnesses, their medication and therapies, and that methodologies used to study them. Alot what was previously 'known' about mental illness and the brain in the 80's has now been refutted, despite that fact the illnesses and the brain haven't changed in this time.

Anyway, back on topic. I have used this as a resolve to stop smoking. Now this could be a placebo effect, but my stomach does feel a little better since I haven't smoked today. I had been noticing that I would get a little more discomfort for about 20 minutes after having a cigarette the last couple of days. Again this could just be all in my head.

I spoke to my girlfriend about this today, as she has a degree in biomedicine. She seemed to think the worst things for it would be alcohol and tobacco. she said tobacco mainly because it slows healing, and alcohol because it would cause irritation and inflamation of the stomach lining.

She believes that it is not the caffeine that is harmful to the ulcer, but rather the acidity of the coffee.

In her opinion, MDMA and other stimulants shouldn't cause any great irritation to the ulcer. She is unsure about mushrooms though due to the amount of nausea they can cause in some people.
 
BTW, I am absolutely certain that nicotine, caffeine or alcohol did not cause my ulcer. It was the result of too much ibuprofen. I have noticed that caffeine and nicotine do aggrevate it to a small extent.
 
^ yeah cheers. If you could find that out, that would be great. ditto MDMA, and cocaine (because I know some the drip will get there).

BTW, Mr. Blonde do you know what happens in your stomach when you get nauseous from mushrooms? is it the result of it playing havoc with your stomach lining, or possibly the result of its action on serotonin? I have noticed many drugs that act on serotonin can increase nausea or activity in the gastrointestinal tract. SSRIs included.
 
Mr Blonde said:
Sorry, you are right that this is off-topic but it's not often I get a chance to have this type of discussion.
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That's cool. It isn't totally OT and psytaco is being a good sport about it ;)

Mr Blonde said:
Post up a paper discussing the ulcerogenic mechanism of action of nicotine then.
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It would take too long to look through all the results that come up, but this paper has a decent discussion of nicotine and ulcerogenesis, particularly pointing out that there is much conflicting evidence (including that chronic nicotine administration increases gastric acidity). Their statement that "the effect of nicotine on gastric acid secretion is controversial", together with the studies they reference, suggest that the topic has been covered a number of times since the 80s.

A few others include: Mechanisms of disease: nicotine--a review of its actions in the context of gastrointestinal disease, Smoking and the pathogenesis of gastroduodenal ulcer--recent mechanistic update, Effects of nitric oxide on gastric ulceration induced by nicotine and cold-restraint stress, Pathogenesis of nicotine treatment and its withdrawal on stress-induced gastric ulceration in rats, Smoking and gastric ulcers: the possible role of nicotine... the list really does go on for pages :\

psytaco said:
Anyway, back on topic. I have used this as a resolve to stop smoking. Now this could be a placebo effect, but my stomach does feel a little better since I haven't smoked today. I had been noticing that I would get a little more discomfort for about 20 minutes after having a cigarette the last couple of days. Again this could just be all in my head.

I spoke to my girlfriend about this today, as she has a degree in biomedicine. She seemed to think the worst things for it would be alcohol and tobacco. she said tobacco mainly because it slows healing, and alcohol because it would cause irritation and inflamation of the stomach lining.

She believes that it is not the caffeine that is harmful to the ulcer, but rather the acidity of the coffee.

In her opinion, MDMA and other stimulants shouldn't cause any great irritation to the ulcer. She is unsure about mushrooms though due to the amount of nausea they can cause in some people.
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I think any reason (valid or not) to quit is great. Good luck! :D

Without doing any further research, I would agree with the stuff your gf said. I don't believe caffeine itself would have much effect. Shrooms possibly, as a number of tryptamines have vasoconstrictive properties, but I doubt there are any studies out there...

psytaco said:
BTW, I am absolutely certain that nicotine, caffeine or alcohol did not cause my ulcer. It was the result of too much ibuprofen. I have noticed that caffeine and nicotine do aggrevate it to a small extent.
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I'm sure you're right - if memory serves, anti-inflammatories are the second leading cause of peptic ulcers after H. Pylori. Could always have been multifactorial though.
 
psytaco said:
BTW, Mr. Blonde do you know what happens in your stomach when you get nauseous from mushrooms? is it the result of it playing havoc with your stomach lining, or possibly the result of its action on serotonin? I have noticed many drugs that act on serotonin can increase nausea or activity in the gastrointestinal tract. SSRIs included.
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I'm pretty sure it's from its action on serotonin receptors
 
I remember some people over in E discussion talking about serotonin causing stomach upsets.

Mirtaz blocks all of Mushroom effects except for nausea, serotonin is about the only thing that isn't inhibited much by Mirtazapine.
 
^ I'm fairly sure it is due to serotonin agonism as Divine posted. It would be interesting to try something like metoclopramide for the nausea from psychedelics and see if it attenuates the psychedelic effects or not?

Divine: I will respond to your post later, but right now I have to get ready for work. :)
 
Thats what I was trying to get at, as Serotonin is the last thing that works on my brain at the moment.
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If it helps any, metoclopramide antagonizes the 5HT3 and 4 receptors if I remember correctly, and these are not associated with psychedelic action. It's dopamine antagonism could be a problem, but I guess we will find out when Psilo tries it! :)

ETA:
It would take too long to look through all the results that come up, but this paper has a decent discussion of nicotine and ulcerogenesis, particularly pointing out that there is much conflicting evidence (including that chronic nicotine administration increases gastric acidity). Their statement that "the effect of nicotine on gastric acid secretion is controversial", together with the studies they reference, suggest that the topic has been covered a number of times since the 80s.

A few others include: Mechanisms of disease: nicotine--a review of its actions in the context of gastrointestinal disease, Smoking and the pathogenesis of gastroduodenal ulcer--recent mechanistic update, Effects of nitric oxide on gastric ulceration induced by nicotine and cold-restraint stress, Pathogenesis of nicotine treatment and its withdrawal on stress-induced gastric ulceration in rats, Smoking and gastric ulcers: the possible role of nicotine... the list really does go on for pages
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With the exception of one of those studies, none of them claim that nicotine on it's own induces ulcers; rather that it is an aggressive co-factor that increases the likelihood of ulceration and can prevent healing. Perhaps on it's own it's action is not enough to induce ulcers at these doses, but when combined with another risk factor it can then do a lot of damage.
 
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