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Where is the line between dependency and recreational use?

Legerity said:
I appreciate the value of tripping but it is not a necessary aspect of the human experience. And some people may choose abstinence because substance use causes them significant problems, and they do not want to continue with that behaviour.

Personally I'm more into making efforts to moderate, so I can understand where you are coming from. But I think it would be more accurate to say that humans have a natural desire to experience different states of consciousness, in which drugs are only one way of achieving.
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I agreed that if the cons outweigh the positives, then stay off drugs. They're not for everyone. If someone can handle them, or thinks they can, then I *personally* would strongly urge them to give it a try (in a safe, controlled, legal setting).

And moderation is exactly what I'm talking about - as much as I don't wanna know a friend has never tripped, it pisses me off when I find so-and-so has tripped 5X this month.

Your last sentence I just quoted kind of sums up why I think all should try it at least once. MDMA and a psychedelic, at least to begin with. I don't think you're missing too much w/o coke, or heroin, but you gotta trip and you gotta roll, IMO!
 
Lol I think the everyone should try take drugs in moderation for their wellbeing was a bit much. I partly agree but with some qualification.

I put it earlier in this thread I think that I see drugs as 'spiritual junkfood'. In that sense if someone is a spiritual pauper (I'm using spiritual really broadly and somewhat poetically here to mean just becoming more in touch with yourself, diff. states etc.) and they don't have many other outlets then yes I'd encourage them to take drugs to widen their horizons.

What I've found though after taking them for over 10 years is the drugs 'trip' as a whole became somewhat of an effort in diminishing returns. Recently since I've been doing actual 'normal' stuff which I would have found tediously boring before I had the added depth of perspective drugs gave me now they seem fun and I appreciate them more.

At the same time that isn't to say you can't reach the same sort of personal growth without drugs I just think it's alot harder esp. in our oppressive society which prefers you stay dumb. I like how Alan Watts put it, which sums up my points well, when he said drugs are like taking a microscope to examine other states but you only use the microscope to find these new vistas and then work on exploring them and integrating them without drugs. That was the gist of it anyway.
 
@SangerRainsford: I guess the only thing we are saying different here is that I don't think I would strongly suggest to somebody who has never used drugs that they should. I've done so long ago and regretted it, I feel that if somebody wants to do it they will inquire. I've run into enough problems that I don't really feel I have the right to be a spokesperson for getting high.

@Harambulus: Yeah I think that it's really about learning to work with the mind without any drugs. Even if they do offer some new perspectives, if our minds run amok without them then we have really not achieved any sort of freedom.
 
I got pissed off with myself for a bit this morning.

I was writing out a text to send to a possible coke lead. I had no idea of the likelihood the number would even still work since it was about a year ago since I contacted them and even then it was for E's.

Just before I went to hit send I decided fuck this and deleted the message and the number.

I then spent most of the rest of the morning cursing myself for potentially 'cheating' myself out of a good time.

I keep vacillating between feeling this and feeling I'm better off without.

I do think that it'll be good to lay off for a few months if only to be less needy about the whole thing like I was here.

I don't want to be having a tantrum with myself when I can't get drugs so I think taking a break will allow me to more be ok with not having them.

I wanna be like if they drop on my lap 'cool' but if not I don't wanna be chasing like a lil bitch and beating myself up if I can't get them. Take it or leave it type deal.

I keep saying to myself 'drugs aren't going anywhere so they'll still be there if I lay off for a few months and still feel I wanna have a dabble but in the meantime this is a good learning experience'.

I often find it embarrassing reading back my posts as they highlight the 'western obsession with the self' with all the 'me me me' talk with I in every sentence :D.
 
I can relate to how you're feeling, trying to define the type of relationship I want to have with the substances that I use. It can be really confusing and frustrating but I think it's worth the effort in order to find something that we can be at peace with. Good luck man :)
 
Harambulus said:
I got pissed off with myself for a bit this morning.

I was writing out a text to send to a possible coke lead. I had no idea of the likelihood the number would even still work since it was about a year ago since I contacted them and even then it was for E's.

Just before I went to hit send I decided fuck this and deleted the message and the number.

I then spent most of the rest of the morning cursing myself for potentially 'cheating' myself out of a good time.

I keep vacillating between feeling this and feeling I'm better off without.

I do think that it'll be good to lay off for a few months if only to be less needy about the whole thing like I was here.

I don't want to be having a tantrum with myself when I can't get drugs so I think taking a break will allow me to more be ok with not having them.

I wanna be like if they drop on my lap 'cool' but if not I don't wanna be chasing like a lil bitch and beating myself up if I can't get them. Take it or leave it type deal.

I keep saying to myself 'drugs aren't going anywhere so they'll still be there if I lay off for a few months and still feel I wanna have a dabble but in the meantime this is a good learning experience'.

I often find it embarrassing reading back my posts as they highlight the 'western obsession with the self' with all the 'me me me' talk with I in every sentence :D.
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Based on what you just wrote, you did the right thing by not going through with it.

Generally speaking, if you've got reservations that (drug activity X) may not really be so good, odds are it isn't.
 
I think the line comes when it's not fun anymore...hence the "recreational" part. :)

When you feel physically sick without drugs or can't stop obsessing over them when you don't have any are good signs of dependency. Simply enjoying drugs is not a sign of dependency in itself, though it could signal problematic drug use patterns if you don't enjoy much else.
 
When you feel that your use isn't *100%* within your control (which his post clearly showed), that's past recreational IMO (and probably most other's).
Granted, letting that happen w/ acid isn't usually as dangerous as meth or heroin, but either way if you're doubting yourself, that's a pretty damn strong sign you have a problem. Problem here is, basically, using when you shouldn't - and if you've gotta ask yourself that, you're probably riding or past that line, so the quicker you get in control from there the better (far easier said than done... sorry if this came off 'ranty', it just sucks seeing people who used responsibly for like half a decade ruin their lives by under a year-long affair w/ some of hte harder shit <coke/crack, meth, opiates, whatever - much harder to have those problems w/ mdma, lsd, thc, but the otehrs, plus alcohol/benzos actually, become life-long problems for so many who fall, even lightly, into dependency)
 
Ask yourself & answer honestly; am I using or abusing this drug? When drug use becomes serious drug abuse, then dependency is just around the corner.
 
Well said. I'd personally say that IF you have to ask that in *any* manner outside of a quick subconscious thought, odds are you're using too much (you may be able to control that level, mind you, but you're at a spot that usually doesn't go too well, it's more a factor of time than anything once someone's abusing :/ )

(terminology for this stuff sucks - by "abusing" I mean that within the paradigm of someone who uses drugs. Is taking 3 hits of acid and two rolls "abusing"? Not in all cases IMO, but certainly is in others'.)
 
And even without a complete loss of control it is very possible to get stuck a level that still significantly decreases quality of life by diminishing pleasure in other activities, strain on the body, mental health issues, etc. It can be easy to ignore certain consequences...
 
I think I wanna dabble again soon since I feel I've abstained for long enough.

It feels like it 'isn't fair' that the average jo gets their release from alcohol etc (which I hate unless with other drugs).

I feel I've given it a fair go of trying out other things apart from drugs- learning instrument getting into my business they are good and I will continue doing but they aren't giving me the release I require. I am finding I am getting welled up psychically such that things become less and less fun carrying around this mental baggage.

For me I think it's the all work and no play addage.
 
Really?
Meh, diff of opinion I guess, I mean psychs are intensely eye-opening/spiritual, but still hedonistic enough imo.
(although psychs cause far less issues, per capita anyways, than the real problems of the oh-so-good, but so fuckin dangerous/addictive harder shit I'd mentioned. For many, to "properly experience", say, opiates, comes with a requisite "for life" aspect, whether using or a heavily increased compulsion to use/obsess over them. To properly experience mdma, that's not really the case for nearly a %. I really wish we could educate people better on these differences... A great nod can be up there w/ rolling-face, but the difference in costs (non-monetary, well that too even) is so huge it's absurd)
 
everything is hedonistic to an extent. it's a circle of life. everything is a contradiction. you do yourself a disservice by trying to box everything into things, sanger. wouldn't surprise me if you're a grad student.
 
KamMoye said:
everything is hedonistic to an extent. it's a circle of life. everything is a contradiction. you do yourself a disservice by trying to box everything into things, sanger. wouldn't surprise me if you're a grad student.
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Of course everything is - I guess what I meant is that.... How about this - LSD is awesome for spiritual reasons, but one can just as easily fuck around w/ their friends and get nothing useful to integrate from their trip. And others like mixing mdma w/ their lsd, which is absolutely a hedonistic decision. That's all I really meant by that ;)

I'm really unsure how saying something is both spiritual and hedonistic is compartamentalizing things, would like to hear your elaboration.

I'm not, not yet anyways - unsure what I want to do right now, but yes I do have a bachelor's.
(I'm not gonna lie, I'm damn sure, based on some of our back/forths, that you have a very, very inaccurate picture of who I am and what I'm about.)

Harambulus said:
lol sounds like someone had too much acid and/or trying to sound 'hip' and trying a bit too hard. :)
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I presume you're talking about me.

I haven't had too much acid, not by a long shot. In fact I've only eaten ONE type of acid in my entire life, just luckily there was enough around my friend stockpiled some, so every time I rolled after that I worked towards (and eventually reached :)) ) the perfect lsd:mdma ratio for my(+my girl's) preferences.
That's the opposite of "hip". I planned my trips in advance, we'd set everything up perfectly, I'm not gonna go into details of what I'd done for obvi reasons but most would not consider it hip, it was more akin to planning a great event weeks, if not months, before it occured.
And wtf would I be "trying too hard" at?
 
i assumed he was talking about me, cuz i'm human and we like to assume shit

that and cuz i've done a crapload of acid

my advice to everyone: do more acid
 
LOL that made me smile ;P
/just remember to be safe and work your way up!!!!

oh and some cannot deal w/ acid, some can't deal w/ shrooms, etc, always work your way up...I've never had a spot of trouble w/ any amount of acid, but mushrooms mess w/ me really, really badly, it's literally rolling dice when I (used to try and) take them. I'm prolly the only person I know who's freaked out on mdma+low-dose mushrooms :/
 
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