Opioid tolerance increasing steadily....

[What was it?]

So I've been using opioids on and off for a year or so and as can be expected the dosage and frequency has been increasing. Now, I don't think I am physically dependant (hope). I use 2-3 times a week, either DHC, Codeine, Oxy, Morphine, Bupe, tramadol or any combo of these. I also use temazepam, alprazolam and diazepam, sometimes in combo with the opioids. Since I first tried bupe 5 weeks ago I've noticed my tolerance has shot up and has stayed relatively elevated....is this normal? I used to get quite high off 100ml of Rikodeine and 2 panadeine fortes. Now 200ml of Riko and 2 fortes wouldnt do as much. Also, did 350mg of Tramadol and 1mg of Xanax yesterday and I had to really scratch my head....very little effect. So what do I do? How long do I wait for tolerance to decrease? Do i just dose smaller or do I have to take a complete break? As mentionned....I use 2-3 times a week but not too big dosages....and also what is the chance of physical dependance over time with my frequency?

.6mg of Bupe insufflated had me mightily smashed though 2 weeks ago...even compared to 35mg of Oxy.....totally different feeling though.

 

[Crankinit]

Opiate tolerance takes forever to go down, I took a 3 month break at one stage and my tolerance didn't even budge. That said, it does seem to spike even higher than normal for a few weeks after using some of the extremely potent opiates, I had the same experience with fentanyl, my tolerance nearly doubled for a few weeks after I went through a few patches, and in your case it sounds like you're having the same problem with bupe.

If I were you, I'd take a break for 3 or 4 weeks, that should be enough time for the spike in tolerance from the bupe to pass, then when you go back space out your use a bit more, especially when it comes to the stronger opiates.

Also, you might want to look into taking DXM with your opiates. In low doses (50 - 100mg, low enough to not cause any dissociative effect) it's supposed to slow down the rate at which your tolerance develops, and it also significantly potentiates the effect of codeine.

As for physical dependence, using 2 - 3 times a week it would be pretty hard for any significant dependence to develop, but keep on eye on your mood the day after, if you notice you start feeling a little off the next day after getting high, maybe consider spacing it out further.

 

[opi8]

One way to rapidy decrease your opiate tolerance is to get ahold of some naltrexone. I wouldn't really recommend it though, especially if you have any kind of a habit.

 

[herm1t]

Back when I was doing oxy, I found that one month off = 20mg of oxy tolerance down. Read about tolerance and how you can impede it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid#Tolerance

most common way is usually taking 30mg of DXM 30 minutes before dosing.

 

[Sustanon]

Opie tolerance is a bitch. I find that u need to take a few weeks off depending on how much u took n for how long of course. Opiate tolerance does increase very rapidly with continious use. Its also a wise idea to switch the drugs around and do sumfn different, and yea DXM does wonders. Not so much for reducing tolerance but as in potentiation. Works like a charm Altho u will build tolerance to that as well and have to find sumfn else again.

 

[What was it?]

Opiate tolerance takes forever to go down, I took a 3 month break at one stage and my tolerance didn't even budge. That said, it does seem to spike even higher than normal for a few weeks after using some of the extremely potent opiates, I had the same experience with fentanyl, my tolerance nearly doubled for a few weeks after I went through a few patches, and in your case it sounds like you're having the same problem with bupe.

If I were you, I'd take a break for 3 or 4 weeks, that should be enough time for the spike in tolerance from the bupe to pass, then when you go back space out your use a bit more, especially when it comes to the stronger opiates.

Also, you might want to look into taking DXM with your opiates. In low doses (50 - 100mg, low enough to not cause any dissociative effect) it's supposed to slow down the rate at which your tolerance develops, and it also significantly potentiates the effect of codeine.

As for physical dependence, using 2 - 3 times a week it would be pretty hard for any significant dependence to develop, but keep on eye on your mood the day after, if you notice you start feeling a little off the next day after getting high, maybe consider spacing it out further.

Thanks for the good info. Yeah I do feel a bit off the next day, as if my serotonin is low. Sometimes it's worse and sometimes better....quite random really. I've only ever once had something that resembles physical wthdrawal symptoms after 4 days straight and that was a bit of RLS. Never again.....the psychological issues long term opioid use produce are enough for me. Surprisingly I have kept opioids under control...but having said that I will never ever mutter the words: "I will never get addicted" as this attitude DEFINITELY gets people addicted. I guess psychologically I am addicted. Every time I walk home or go to toilet at work heroin is on my mind but I never persue it or give in and take it. ....

but back to tolerance...I'll definitely give DXM a go.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ I'd recommend DXM, I've just started using it in the last few weeks and it's helped keep my tolerance down pretty well. Also adds to the experience a little bit in a nice way. I use 30mg, 45 minutes before dosing the codeine.

 

[What was it?]

^ I'd recommend DXM, I've just started using it in the last few weeks and it's helped keep my tolerance down pretty well. Also adds to the experience a little bit in a nice way. I use 30mg, 45 minutes before dosing the codeine.

Sounds good. I will give it a go...trying to avoid the good 'ol opies though . Still got some of the Bupe left, but I don't really like it that much so it's been laying around for ages. Is it worthwhile using the DXM with Bupe? Bupe seems to be the only opioid that makes me edgy, anxious and dizzy....gives me orthostatic hypotension....or at least feels that way. If I could find anything that improves this it would be great. Do you have any suggestions?

I once heard somebody on BL say bupe is like methadone meets tramadol. Kind of true, the crappy effects of tramadol just a lot stronger and the duration of methadone (although not the high-does not agonize the mu receptors as much I believe). Anybody agree with this, too?

Oh and also Mr Blonde, if I can easily take 190mg of DHC with 100mg codeine CWEd (tolerance), will the 35mg DXM on top push me over the limit in terms of OD by any chance? I have just never ever potentiated or taken anything else with opies except for benzos. Want to be really careful first time 'round.

 

[drug_mentor]

Here is a study which showed tiny doses of naltrexone administered with morphine prolonged the come on but tripled the peak duration. I have trad another study of ultra low naltrexone doses being used to reverse opiod tolerance.

A friend of momr took small doses for a few days then got powerful effects from a CWE. I think they are currently doing it again at the moment. I wont mention any names but perhaps they could chime in to sat how its going and probably give a much better insight into what to do that I can.

For anyone who is unaware naltrexone is an opioid antagonist that is farily commonly prescribed for alcoholism and occassionally for opiate dependence. As I understand it, it reduces tolerance/potentiates opioids via upregulation of the opioid receptors, tolerance is essentially down regulation of the receptors.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Oh and also Mr Blonde, if I can easily take 190mg of DHC with 100mg codeine CWEd (tolerance), will the 35mg DXM on top push me over the limit in terms of OD by any chance? I have just never ever potentiated or taken anything else with opies except for benzos. Want to be really careful first time 'round.

No, it won't make you OD. No potentiator is that good, unless you take them in huge amounts in which case you would be worried more about sedating antihistamines or benzodiazepines rather then DXM; taking too much of that would just be uncomfortable.

gives me orthostatic hypotension....or at least feels that way. If I could find anything that improves this it would be great. Do you have any suggestions?

As in you get dizziness and sudden blood pressure drop when standing up? Try phenylephrine; it's a crappy decongestant but it is useful as a vasoconstrictor. It may help with the blood pressure somewhat. I'll find out more today for you.

 

[What was it?]

As in you get dizziness and sudden blood pressure drop when standing up? Try phenylephrine; it's a crappy decongestant but it is useful as a vasoconstrictor. It may help with the blood pressure somewhat. I'll find out more today for you.

Yes, this is exactly what happens.Only bupe does this to me. Despite me only being a chipper more or less, I've had some heavy M and H experiences and didn't have this unpleasant dizziness. This vertigo is distinctly unpleasant (lasted about an hour) leading me to believe that it potentially is orthostatic hypotension.

I don't think it's a doasge probablem either at .6mg bupe insufflated as I've done 120mg of Morphine (MS Contins crushed) rectally once. It's just one of those weird things with people reacting differently to different substances.

But if you could, please let me know more about phenylephrine. Thanks.

Just also found this on Wiki....some snippets from there:

Vasopressor
Phenylephrine is sometimes used as a vasopressor to increase the blood pressure in unstable patients with hypotension. Such use is more common in anesthesia or critical-care practices; phenylephrine is especially useful in counteracting the hypotensive effect of epidural and subarachnoid anesthetics. It also has the advantage of not being inotropic or chronotropic, and so it strictly elevates the blood pressure without increasing the heart rate or contractility (reflex bradycardia may result from the blood pressure increase, however). This is especially useful if the heart is already tachycardic and/or has a cardiomyopathy. The elimination half life of phenylephrine is about 2.5 to 3 hours.

and

Oral phenylephrine is extensively metabolised by monoamine oxidase,[2] an enzyme that is present in the gastrointestinal tract and in the liver. Therefore, compared to orally-taken pseudoephedrine, it has a reduced and variable bioavailability of only up to 38 percent.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ Pseudoephedrine is another good med you could try to increase the blood pressure and counteract the orthostatic hypotension you are experiencing.

Regarding the phenylephrine: I recommend it as a starting point because when taken orally it is less likely to cause side effects and is fairly safe. The draw backs are that it is a much better local vasoconstrictor then a systemic one.*

Failing that, pseudoephedrine would be another drug you can try... but Wikipedia also has a good list of treatment ideas on it's page on orthostatic hypotension. Rising more slowly, breathing deeply and flexing abdominal muscle whilst rising, temporarily elevating your salt intake (to 10g or so). Many of the other drug treatments available are prescription only.

* I'm surprised that phenylephrine isn't available as a nasal spray here in Australia, or at least I've never seen it and pharmacists I've spoken to haven't heard of it. Although orally ingested phenylephrine is no better then placebo (or worse) for nasal congestion, as a locally applied spray it is quite effective.

 

[Christ!]

With bupe you'll get pretty damn high the first couple times you use it, when you're coming from baseline. Don't use that as a measure of tolerance. It's got that long half-life so it'll occupy receptors for a long time, and even a double/triple dose won't get you close to that 'from baseline' high. Hope I explained that right...it's different than any other opiate IME.

Bupe is pretty strong. If you're taking it 3 days a week that'll build tolerance over time. Also, if you're dosing to get high and are unable because of the bupe already occupying receptors, you might be upping dose which will give you that low blood pressure/dizziness without the usual accompanying happy effects.


I remember working out what dosing of bupe you'd need to have how often to grow a significant dependence...I made a spreadsheet for working out rough levels in blood by inputting daily dose and the half-life of the particular drug, I'll try find it as some people might find it useful.

Realise you're not only using bupe so some of this may not apply.

Have a break dude It's worth it, even with a small habit like yours. You'll probably have very mild withdrawal if you're only using 2-3 times a week. Hardest bit will be in your head...and finding something else to do when your usual getting high time comes around.

I once heard somebody on BL say bupe is like methadone meets tramadol. Kind of true, the crappy effects of tramadol just a lot stronger and the duration of methadone (although not the high-does not agonize the mu receptors as much I believe). Anybody agree with this, too?

In some ways. You can't keep getting high off bupe regularly...really needs to be a once in a while thing - it's worse than methadone like this IME. It's great for maintenance though. For low tolerance/not much experience opiate users bupe can be pretty nice....I prefer it to methadone, which is strange when I look at its structure and method of action/what receptors occupied etc. But yeah - bupe isn't all that fantastic for getting high, compared to most other opiates.

 

[What was it?]

Yeah dude, I'm having a break...much needed. At least 6 weeks to show me I'm not a fully blown addict. Have noticed some addict tendencies recently - semi-zombie state some mornings, not feeling like communicating with other people, using too much time to procure meds (drugs).

I find it hard to imagine quitting opioids totally but who knows....I might even leave it be if I feel that is the better option after 6 weeks.

Thanks for the good info on bupe....think you are quite right with what you have said. ti is really a once-in-a-while thing.

 

[bobbydarren]

I"ve found with riko(DHC) you're just wasting your money when you have any degree of tolerance from either DHC or codeine & prob other opiates. I hadn't taken riko for 6months and thought I'd revisit. I had taken codeine regularly every few days for many months & although I could still get something from codeine. riko was a complete non performer. This was at normal dose & normal dose and a 1/2. got pretty much nothing out of it.

So I think there's a severe cross tolerance between DHC and codeine, affecting DHC much harder than codeine. I won't be blowing money on DHC again until I have a break from all opiates for maybe a month or longer.

PS although I got no effects (pretty much) from riko, it still chewed teh fuck out of my stomach, as has been the case previously. Shat blood, puked up blood, rather severe pain the next day. I really do wonder how riko does that to me. Not sure if it's the DHC, or the sorbitol breaking down into a very corrosive liquid or maybe my stomach emits so much acid it's corroding the stomach it'self(Not sure that's possible). Anyway nasty stuff.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ Defecating blood and vomiting up blood? That doesn't sound good.

What dose of dihydrocodeine did you use, and what dose of codeine do you normally use?

 

[What was it?]

I"ve found with riko(DHC) you're just wasting your money when you have any degree of tolerance from either DHC or codeine & prob other opiates. I hadn't taken riko for 6months and thought I'd revisit. I had taken codeine regularly every few days for many months & although I could still get something from codeine. riko was a complete non performer. This was at normal dose & normal dose and a 1/2. got pretty much nothing out of it.

So I think there's a severe cross tolerance between DHC and codeine, affecting DHC much harder than codeine. I won't be blowing money on DHC again until I have a break from all opiates for maybe a month or longer.

PS although I got no effects (pretty much) from riko, it still chewed teh fuck out of my stomach, as has been the case previously. Shat blood, puked up blood, rather severe pain the next day. I really do wonder how riko does that to me. Not sure if it's the DHC, or the sorbitol breaking down into a very corrosive liquid or maybe my stomach emits so much acid it's corroding the stomach it'self(Not sure that's possible). Anyway nasty stuff.

This has nothing to do with the DHC but rather the enormous amount of sorbitol. In addition I'd suggest you have an endoscopy performed as there seems to be some other underlying weakness or condition you have. Sorbitol is and irritant via its strong laxative effect but most people would not have this reaction. Get it checked out.

 

[p-man]

I had a bit of a different experience last weekend with oxycontin. I'm fairly new to it and only have been using it recreationally for the last couple of months. I've worked out my tolerance at no more that 10mg(snorted from 40mg tab), but always take less as it still gives me the desired effect.

So I usually crush up a whole 40mg tab and just do a bump through each nose which gives me about 6-8 hits at approx 5-7mg. But I did this last weekend and it gave me a headache and made me ill/vomit.

I'd been up for a couple of days and hadn't eaten for a while. I also had meth in my system but wasn't particularly 'high' at the time. Just questioning what would have made the decrease in my tolerance in order to make me ill???

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ Did you feel as if the opioid effects of euphoria and respiratory depression were stronger like the nausea was? I don't think it's tolerance, rather a case of your stomach already being in a state where vomiting was more likely.

 

[canarylove]

gone are the days of au $50 doing anything now i need over $250 or more