Where is the line between dependency and recreational use?

[Harambulus]

I have been making a concerted effort to take a few months to take up new hobbies and force myself to enjoy things other than drugs.

It has become quite fruitful in that I am beginning to really get into practicing the violin and I have been making efforts to work on my business consistently- that is slower but I'm seeing progress.

TBH I realized, apart form girls, drugs were probably the only thing I enjoy doing and I had no other hobbies/life which was what triggered my wanting to do this. I was too dependent on both causing me to be needy when one or the other was not around.

I was on a comedown from 5apb and another day of psychosis from mdpv/mdppp and I was pissed off so I decided to wait till the next morning (so I wouldn't rationalize that it was the drugs talking) and I threw out my fresh stash. I had a bit under 500mg of 'pv and about the same of mdppp and also a bag of weed. It felt really liberating to do that cos it would have been easy to say 'ohhh I better just use them up then stop'. I did it cos it was pissing me off that all I was thinking about was when I would next do drugs again and arranging my life around them such that I put my foot down and threw the batch.

I thought it a great moment for future reference cos once I did it once I know I could do it again if I want. Actually I've done it a few times in the past with diff things- coke, speed.

Anyhow it's been a few months and I am enjoying other things but at the same time I fancy taking drugs again. I'm in two minds about this. I think to myself- is this because of some lack in my life and should I just grit my teeth through boredom and stress while I learn to love my life even more or is it ok to have blast now and then of drugs? In one sense I feel like drugs are a 'crutch' and I should just be stronger and focus on enjoying other things but in another sense I think why shouldn't drugs also be a legitimate passtime unto itself to enjoy myself provided I take them responsibly? Now I'm more and more discriminating about which drugs I like since most I find more trouble than they are worth due to comedown, but coke I wanna revisit since it gives a sweet high with negligible comedown from what I remember.

I only get the urge about once every 3 months or so to get a nice release/reset myself and then I don't think about them again till next round. At the same time I think as it's so little why not just nip the whole thing in the bud as it is one less thing to hassle over finding drugs, and getting the paraphernalia etc. Thing is though I find if I don't have a nice lil release like that I find myself getting more irritable and less productive day to day though this is diminishing the more I enjoy other things so like I say I am undecided :D.

Thoughts?

 

[MySecret]

I can relate... Being sober sucks and sometimes I ask myself, "Why is it such a big deal if I do drugs?" The brain is tricky and makes excuses to get high again. Hating drugs is effective when it comes to staying sober.

If you believe something enough, you can make it happen. If you believe that drugs release stress, you will use that reason to get high again. If you believe that exercise is helping and stick to it, it will help you. Basically, you just have to trick yourself into believing something so much, that it becomes true, or at least in my experience, this is how things have worked out for me.

 

[Harambulus]

Well I see what you're saying but I think I'd put it a little different.

Rather than tricking, I think it's more the case of, having taken drugs and being used to instant gratification, it takes time in 'real life' to actually get positive rewards from things.

At the start of learning the violin for instance I found that frustrating and a struggle but recently I've been getting the hang of it more and there is the reward.

So it's not a matter of trick I don't think, but rather resolution to stick at something til you reap the real reward.

I wouldn't say being sober sucks but that it takes alot more effort to be fun hence why I am interested in taking drugs in the meantime as a timeout while I am working on making life fun. That is my main rationale. I wouldn't say that is just delusional justification for drug use necessarily either. On the other hand looking back I know I've used similar justifications for drug use in the past which I would now see are misguided but I am smarter than that now; promise!

 

[more]

Hey if it makes you feel better, just what you guys have said here so far is giving me motivation to keep off drugs. I to have thought how drugs are really another form of "instant gratification," whereas something like exercising or practicing the violin daily requires more discipline and willpower. It really is a sign of maturity to continue to do something good for yourself even when you don't necessarily see the point. I need to start running again and get back into my schoolwork, finish this year strong. Let's both strive to make positive improvements in our your lives. =]

 

[Harambulus]

Cool that you got something positive form the thread.

To top off that point I have used the term 'spiritual junk food' to my friend when we were having discussions on this same issue. I think that sums it up well.

The good thing about violin or any instrument is that it is ready to go whenever you want. So it serves as a productive replacement.

I was gonna get back into DJing but decided not to cos I realized it would be a nuisance having to download tunes all the time (just since I have a shaky internet connection) as well as cost factor.

With the violin I can just drop everything and go practice for a bit.

I'm still thinking that, instead of an escape, drugs may be had on occasion as more of a celebration of the stuff you've worked for. Like people drink champagne at parties.

Of course you can still argue there's no need for drugs at all if your life is that good. I'd still be happy to debate the nuances of that as I am still on the fence about it. I.e. my life isn't SO GREAT that I have lost all desire for drugs. I am willing to entertain the possibility it may one day be like that but in the meantime I'm still happy to say 'now and then' using 'celebration' as my excuse .

I think it's just a matter of convenience. If the cost outweighs the benefits I just stop whatever drug and don;t go back to it- apart form if I forget once or twice but then usually it reminds me in those times and I do stop after. The only drug I'm interested in taking again now is cocaine. I have written off all the others (that I am aware of) due to effects I don't like either getting bored/growing out of the highs or disliking the comedowns.

Coke I can see I may one day grow out of it but the thing with dopamine is it doesn't really get old due to how it works. I could easily dislike the negative effects but I still have more experiments to do in that field is all. Maybe it will only take one experiment maybe not. Anyway I haven't been able to get hold of any atm so it is a forced abstinence and I'm continuing to get on with my 'productive' pursuits.

 

[KamMoye]

For me it comes down to stress management.

Without meditation there'd be no way in hell I could do it. That is at the top of my list.

As far as exercise and all that other jazz goes, I've found everything is easy once you're into it. You just need to start. Like Nike says, Just Do It. No thoughts. Just focus on your breath and do it. Not once have I started and said to myself by the end, Dang, this wasn't a good idea!

 

[Harambulus]

I'm finding this a pretty interesting experience in self analysis.

Since posting this I have been getting really strong cravings to do drugs. It comes on in waves but the urge is pretty pervasive all through each day.

What I've been doing though is when I get really strong urges forcing myself to say 'let me just do X normal activity and see how I feel after'.

For instance I would get really strong cravings and my brain will be screaming out and whining that it must find drugs for X, Y, Z reason then I say to myself 'let me go out this evening, go to bed and see how I feel tomorrow'. I've found when I wake up the urge has gone down but then sooner or later it rears its head up again and again and so forth but each time I continue this cycle.

My thinking atm is 'I am probably gonna take drugs again but let me see how long I can go without' gradually pushing the bar a day at a time.

I knew I was dependent on them but each time I would take drugs again to quench the thirst but abstaining is making me see how dependent I was on them.

I don't see it as any different to dependence to anything else though (i.e a drug habit being different or particularly stronger than any other habit). I have also stopped other activities too recently which were acting as a surrogate for productivity to similar effect -i.e just wasting time watching youtube vids or trolling on forums (i.e deliberately posting inflammatory things to get attention rather than posting value). These things too made me feel a similar 'empty' feeling just cos I was getting a little entertainment out of them and now they are gone.

I think even if/when I do take drugs again this 'seeing how long I can last without' is a good mindset to have and will increase my endurance such that after them I won't be so bothered.

Interestingly I've noticed the past few days I am starting to appreciate normal activities more like just doing housework and such. Before I was 'just going through the motions' but now I can almost FEEL my brain rewiring itself to give me lil dopamine shots (or just that I'm noticing them more since I am not getting big blasts :D) when I do these things. I think it;s more that when my mind isn't whining so much about not getting a drug fix it is more free to notice and appreciate these things.

 

[SangerRainsford]

Not exactly what you're asking, but may be useful for you (and others).

It's important to know terminology here.

Drug usage, recreationally, can be use or abuse. Use is fine for most everybody. Abuse is fine for many, but also leads to problems (covered in a second).
Drug dependence simply means you have a physical and/or psychological dependence. If it's physical only, this can be stemmed pretty easily, but as is the case w/ most on this board anyways, the dependence will likely be physical *and* psychological. Psychological dependence quickly leads to addiction for many.
Addiction is accompanied by tolerance and dependence, and is kind of the 'last stop' on this drug-fueled adventure many embark upon. Once here, things're changed forever, so be careful.

Just wanted to post this, as I've been seeing a lot of confusion on the stages/types of drug usage.
Enjoy your (safe!) usage people!!!!!!!!

 

[Harambulus]

Drug dependence simply means you have a physical and/or psychological dependence. If it's physical only, this can be stemmed pretty easily, but as is the case w/ most on this board anyways, the dependence will likely be physical *and* psychological. Psychological dependence quickly leads to addiction for many.

Aren't you getting your own definitions mixed up here bud?

The common knowledge is that physical is the one to be worried about not psychological.

Fail on your part for coming in like an authority and making such a schoolboy error :D.

If it wasn't an error that would be even worse cos like I said then it would be just wrong as per common knowledge.

 

[addictivepersona]

Aren't you getting your own definitions mixed up here bud?

The common knowledge is that physical is the one to be worried about not psychological.

Fail on your part for coming in like an authority and making such a schoolboy error :D.

If it wasn't an error that would be even worse cos like I said then it would be just wrong as per common knowledge.

I agree with Sanger, that physiological addictions are a hell of a lot harder to beat than physical...

 

[SangerRainsford]

Aren't you getting your own definitions mixed up here bud?

The common knowledge is that physical is the one to be worried about not psychological.

Fail on your part for coming in like an authority and making such a schoolboy error :D.

If it wasn't an error that would be even worse cos like I said then it would be just wrong as per common knowledge.

No, psychology is why addiction is so bad, not physical dependence. In fact, the neurological changes resultant from drug abuse cause the psychological aspect to, in strong cases, become as/more important than food. The physical parts suck, no doubt, but they don't match the psych.

 

[Legerity]

You seem to have a lot of insight into yourself and dependence, but I would disagree that the physical aspect of addiction is the part to be more concerned about.

I do think that any activity can be used in an addictive manner. Watching TV compulsively to avoid emotions or thoughts is the exact same thing is getting high to do so. Drugs may cause more physical harm in some cases, but the nature of the behaviour is exactly the same. Drug use happens to be less socially acceptable, but everybody has their own dependencies whether or not they are aware of it.

It's up to you whether or not you want to abstain completely or use occasionally. You can find out what works best for you and which option is most realistic. You're the boss

 

[Harambulus]

You seem to have a lot of insight into yourself and dependence, but I would disagree that the physical aspect of addiction is the part to be more concerned about.

I do think that any activity can be used in an addictive manner. Watching TV compulsively to avoid emotions or thoughts is the exact same thing is getting high to do so. Drugs may cause more physical harm in some cases, but the nature of the behaviour is exactly the same. Drug use happens to be less socially acceptable, but everybody has their own dependencies whether or not they are aware of it.

It's up to you whether or not you want to abstain completely or use occasionally. You can find out what works best for you and which option is most realistic. You're the boss

An empowering response sir/madam. %)

 

[SangerRainsford]

As a generic "food for thought" type thing....
IMO, being 100% abstinent, or being a junky, are both problems. Drugs offer many benefits and many problems (just like cars, lol). They are to be used responsibly and in moderation, too much can ruin lives, none can/will stunt lives.

 

[KamMoye]

How about both are equally concerning and we leave it at that?

Sanger, I'd love to hear you elaborate on how being 100% abstinent is, or can be, a problem.

 

[Legerity]

Abstinence a problem? Lately attempting to impose abstinence on myself has made me more likely to binge, because each time I would get high I would be thinking "this is the last time" so I didn't care what I did. When I changed my mentality and told myself I could do it again and was going to make more effort to be reasonable about it, then the desire to binge decreased.

But yeah I don't think abstinence in itself can be considered a problem. I wouldn't suggest to somebody who has never touched a drug that they need to do so for their well being

 

[SangerRainsford]

Sanger, I'd love to hear you elaborate on how being 100% abstinent is, or can be, a problem.

It's a problem because it bellies a complete lack of self-control on the part of the abstinent.
((I'm referring to people who *became* absinent in the previous sentence. In regards to those who are 100% abstinent for life, it's a problem - IMO, of course - in that it shows their fear/hesitation of the unknown, and because they're missing out on (IMO) an extremely important part of life. IMO, if you've never tripped, you've missed out on a very, very important part of the human experience))

 

[SangerRainsford]

You seem to have a lot of insight into yourself and dependence, but I would disagree that the physical aspect of addiction is the part to be more concerned about.

I do think that any activity can be used in an addictive manner. Watching TV compulsively to avoid emotions or thoughts is the exact same thing is getting high to do so. Drugs may cause more physical harm in some cases, but the nature of the behaviour is exactly the same. Drug use happens to be less socially acceptable, but everybody has their own dependencies whether or not they are aware of it.

It's up to you whether or not you want to abstain completely or use occasionally. You can find out what works best for you and which option is most realistic. You're the boss

Good post - sorry I can't quote it out as I'd like, so I'm gonna just bullet-point:

- I disagree the physical part is the more concerning as well. The physical is nothing compared to the psychological.

- You're very right, ANY activity can be addictive (in the general and clinical senses of the word). However, TV (or gambling, or hookers, or shopping) is not as bad as a drug addiction, at least in the beginning, since they don't give physical dependence while drugs do. The nature is the same tho, you are right.

- In some cases, I'd argue that non-drug addictions are just as non-acceptable/taboo as drug ones, but it depends (middle aged lady addicted to her prescribed, 1mg/day xanax is far more acceptable than a guy who needs to gamble 5 times a week).

- You're very, very on point overall; see, drugs cause physical changes to the brain (body too, obviously, but for addiction I'll keep it at the brain), but the thing is that ALL addictions (including gambling/non-drug addictions) cause changes to the brain. The reward circuitry in the brain changes after a long period of addiction to (crack, gambling, heroin, porn, whatever), which is why addiction is such a bitch and, IMO, needs a TON of further study.

- everyone can decide for themselves, that's the beauty of freedom. Personally, I see the most "responsible/smart" approach to use responsibly - for some, that's just trying things once, for others, it's balancing drugs(or whatever else) with an otherwise good, productive life ;P

 

[Legerity]

I appreciate the value of tripping but it is not a necessary aspect of the human experience. And some people may choose abstinence because substance use causes them significant problems, and they do not want to continue with that behaviour.

Personally I'm more into making efforts to moderate, so I can understand where you are coming from. But I think it would be more accurate to say that humans have a natural desire to experience different states of consciousness, in which drugs are only one way of achieving.

 

[SangerRainsford]

Abstinence a problem? Lately attempting to impose abstinence on myself has made me more likely to binge, because each time I would get high I would be thinking "this is the last time" so I didn't care what I did. When I changed my mentality and told myself I could do it again and was going to make more effort to be reasonable about it, then the desire to binge decreased.

But yeah I don't think abstinence in itself can be considered a problem. I wouldn't suggest to somebody who has never touched a drug that they need to do so for their well being

Abstinence is a problem ONLY in the ways I've described. If one cannot use responsibly, and has to choose between abstinence or being out of control, then in almost all cases I'd recommend abstinence. Doesn't mean I think responsible use wouldn't be better.

And re suggesting straight-edgers try a drug, well I guess that's a personal thing. If a friend of mine grew up in mid-america and never travelled, and never planned to, I'd absolutely push them to get to a coast so they may see the ocean. In the same manner, I'd encourage many/all people I know to trip/roll at least once.