N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
3-benzylmorpholine
Phanerothyme
Bluelighter
So this was discussed a little in the stimulants of the future thread, particularly by F&B. I decided to make a new thread as that thread is already really big, but merge if see fit. Does anyone have any journals etc. on it? Any speculation on dosage, duration, pharmacology, toxicity? Has any one actually ever heard of someone trying it? It seems like it might be available...
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mad_scientist
Bluelighter
3-benzylmorpholine might be available, but remember it is a "structural isomer" of phenmetrazine (3-methyl-2-phenylmorpholine) and so 3-BZM will already be illegal in most western countries, unlike many of its close relatives.
3-(diphenylmethyl)morpholine looks tempting though, although might be horribly long lasting....
Phanerothyme
Bluelighter
I didn't even think of that. It isn't actually a "structural isomer" because of the 3-methyl on the morpholine in the case of phenmetrazine, but it's close enough to be an analog I suppose.
mad_scientist said:
So 3-(diphenylmethyl)morpholine would be likely be a more potent brother of desoxypipradrol. Would the morpholine ring have any effects on the duration?
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
Well, 3-(diphenylmethyl)morpholine is cited as being the most potent/active of the series (will dig out paper ref.), but it said nothing about duration.
As for 3-benzylmorpholine, it's starting to look like it's possibly not as hot as I originally thought. Have tried 2-benzylpiperidine and it required 100mg to give mild CNS stimulation, so even if the morpholine was twice the potency of the piperidine, it'll take about 100mg to give a full stimulant dose.
Apparently replacing one of the phenyl groups of desoxypipradrol with an alkyl group (ethyl or propyl best), you retain activity.
Ham-milton
Bluelighter
Though I'd bump this after 3-BZM was discussed in another thread.
mad_scientist
Bluelighter
I think 3-benzylmorpholine could have potential despite the predicted low potency...
2-benzylpiperidine is fairly weak with a dosage of a couple hundred milligrams needed for strong stimulant effects, but the subjective effects were generally agreed to be very favourable, similar to desoxypipradrol but with a duration of action of perhaps 4-6 hours which is much more manageable than the 24h+ duration of desoxypipradrol itself!
So the morpholine analogue could definitely be worth a try at least, seeing as it now seems to be available from the standard RC suppliers.
<pyridinyl_30>
Bluelighter
Just be sure you opt for (S)-3-benzylmorpholine and not (R)-3-benzylmorpholine.
Ham-milton
Bluelighter
is the r isomer expected to produce problems besides even lower potency? I'm not sure it's typically sold as optically pure.
<pyridinyl_30>
Bluelighter
Of course the S isomer is more powerful than the R isomer.
3-benzylmorpholine is basically speed, remember.
Besides, the same is true for methylphenidate, which is also basically speed.
Where I saw it being sold, you could buy either the pure (S) or the pure (R) isomer but not the enantiomer (unless you wanted to buy a gram of each and then mix them together).
fencamfamine
Bluelighter
I don't suppose anyone has a reference for 3-benzyl morpholine? I'm just wondering why people suspect a long duration of action? If so, a p-Me on the phenyl ring offers the body another point of oxidation. I seem to remember that PEAs with a carbonyl on the alpha carbon had increased DRI activity with a p (or p/m) substituent.
Mr. F&B certainly has been studying his stimulants, that's for sure!
nuke
Bluelighter
There is one substituent that no one has really mentioned for the 4-position for these NDRIs/releasers that is likely both very short lived and increases affinity for DA over NE, and not only does this but also circumvents the UK's moda... But I'm not going to mention it here because I think it would be dangerous to in the current climate. :/
atara
Bluelighter
Uh if you're talking about what I think you're talking about not only has it been mentioned on some other forums w.r.t. aminorex analogs but its metabolites are rather... ahem... ugly, from a toxicity perspective.
fencamfamine
Bluelighter
Yes, I think I can make an educated guess as to 2 likely candidates, but I don't know if they are compatible with piperidine/morpholine moiety (although cannot see why not). Could be interesting when applied to the 4,4 dimethyl oxazine class of stimulant.
[EDIT] Thinking about it, I may be on totally the wrong track, the 4-substituent(s) I'm thinking of seem to increase efficacy but decrease potency in related compounds. Overall, altering the ratio of activity is the outcome... I think... Good thought!
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nuke
Bluelighter
The toxicity would be somewhat of a concern though I think their ability to form the metabolically unstable conjugates of related compounds is less likely. Short term toxicity is probably low but long term toxicity may be high. It probably wouldn't be enough to stop some unscrupulous person from ordering it bulk from China.
fencamfamine
Bluelighter
I don't think these RC vendors are looking for very high potency. They want cheap.
I only mentioned the p-Me because mephedrone is metabolized in that way & although the 4,4 dimethyl interests me, it looks suspiciously like a new desoxy!
Hyperthesis
Bluelighter
The only publication available is the patent that Smyth mentioned (US 3265688 ). Quote: "Reduction of 15 g II by 10 g XYZ gave 8 g 3-benzylmorpholine, bp(8 mmHg) = 122-7 °C, a central nervous sytem depressant."
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fencamfamine
Bluelighter
^I think a number got lost there. The synthesis doesn't look daunting - it's more pharmacological activity I'm looking for. I would expect it to be very similar to phenmetrazine, really.
Hyperthesis
Bluelighter
What do you mean?
fencamfamine said:
What makes you think so? While in phenmetrazine the 3-methyl-2-phenylmorpholine nicely overlays with beta-hydroxy-alpha-methyl-PEA (ie. norephedrine) I can't see such an obvious similarity in 3-benzyl morpholine. The latter rather looks like amphetamine + steric bulk in the alpha-position, which usually results in drastically reduced activity compared to plain amphetamine.
fencamfamine said:
