• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion

    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: Tronica

Possible mechanism for testing concentrations of APAP in CWE solutions

Mr Blonde

Mr Blonde

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
13,811
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I'm sure many of us have wondered just how much APAP (paracetamol) ends up in the final product of a cold water extraction (CWE). So far we have only been able to make guesses based on the known solubility of APAP in cold water, plus guessing at whatever amount makes it through the filter you have used.

In the course of researching various other nefarious and clandestine projects, it came to my attention that a solution of APAP added to a concentrated solution of NaOH will result in the APAP turning a purple-brown color. I have yet to test this myself, but NaOH is easily available (you can get Diggers 99.99% NaOH from some supermarkets) and I'm sure that if I hang out with the right crowds I could score some pure APAP. ;)

So here is my plan; when I get the time I will perform this experiment using various amounts of APAP in water. I'll record the results and post them up on here, and see if there is a difference in reaction times and intensity that is great enough to use as a rough gauge of APAP either dissolved or suspended in solution. I will also try this out with smaller amounts of water and APAP to see if this would be viable for a sample from a CWE you are planning on consuming.

If the experiment goes well enough, I will possibly make a YouTube video and then everyone here can give it lots of views and make funny comments, like those 'x people are y' ones. :D

Of course, anyone else who tries this out needs to keep in mind that NaOH is a caustic substance that can very easily injure you. Eye and hand protection is a must when working with it, and the reaction is endothermic as well.

Feedback, comments and ideas are most welcome. :)
 
Sounds like a good idea. I'd be curious to know. Personally, i tend to favour doing CWE with ibuprofen because it is less dangerous than APAP, and because the ibuprofen tablets contain more codeine. is it possible to do something similiar with ibuprofen?

incidently, I have been lazy of late and not doing CWE for my neurofen plus tablets. I'd only really have 12 tablets a day. Is this a dangerous amount of ibuprofen?

BTW, did you do a biochem or a pharmacy degree Mr. Blonde? I'm always impressed with your level of knowledge.
 
Personally, i tend to favour doing CWE with ibuprofen because it is less dangerous than APAP, and because the ibuprofen tablets contain more codeine. is it possible to do something similiar with ibuprofen?
Click to expand...

I'll look into that, good idea. I tend not to use ibuprofen/codeine combinations as I take celecoxib and with the large amounts I am using for a CWE I can envision enough ibuprofen coming through to cause problems for me.

incidently, I have been lazy of late and not doing CWE for my neurofen plus tablets. I'd only really have 12 tablets a day. Is this a dangerous amount of ibuprofen?
Click to expand...

There is definitely the potential for danger. How often do you dose using that method?

BTW, did you do a biochem or a pharmacy degree Mr. Blonde? I'm always impressed with your level of knowledge.
Click to expand...

Pharmacy is what I'm interested in, but unfortunately haven't done a Bachelor yet as I spent the last few years screwing around and trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. In hindsight, it seems obvious that being a pharmacist is a lot like what we do here, so I am aiming to get into that next year. I've heard the job market for pharmacists isn't so hot right now though, and am contemplating perhaps a Doctorate of Pharmacy after that and working in a hospital or for a pharmaceutical company. That's all in the future though, until then I just have my chemistry and biochemistry text books, access to the internet and a drive to learn as much as I can. :)
 
Would it be like a reagent test. the more APAP the quicker the reaction. Wouldnt 1mg make it turn a colour?
 
Would it be like a reagent test. the more APAP the quicker the reaction. Wouldnt 1mg make it turn a colour?
Click to expand...

That's what I'm going to find out. See how much APAP is needed to trigger a visible reaction, how differing amounts alter the reaction speed and intensity. Hopefully I get results that could be applicable and useful for the purpose I mentioned in my first post; if not, then at least it will have been interesting.
 
Mr Blonde said:
There is definitely the potential for danger. How often do you dose using that method?
Click to expand...

for the last week. most days.

I'm going though SSRI withdrawal so it helps.a week or so prior to this I had been using codeine and paracetamol but had been sticking to the recommended dosages for the most part.

There was a time, a good 4 months or so ago, when I would do it pretty regularly (say 2-3 times a week)this was when I was pretty depressed though. but I would also do CWEs. I haven't noticed much in the way of abdominal pain. Very occassionally it happens, but not recently. I thought the biggest danger is stomach ulcers, are there any other dangers associated with ibuprofen? I'm not much over the recommended dosage. I will only take 5 nurofen plus at one time max, and then top up with 2 or 3, every 2 or three hours. I don't normally go over 12 a day (the max being 8 I believe).



I think you should definately pursue pharmacy. You'd excell at it. I studied neuropsychology alot as part of a psych degree. i think that might be something you would also enjoy, particularly the psychopharmacology aspect of it.
 
^ The main risk is peptic ulcers, which is a serious problem. If they perforate, it can lead to sepsis, heart problems, internal abscesses, electrolyte disturbances that can lead to renal failure... just generally bad stuff.

Ibuprofen, along with almost all other NSAIDS with the exception of aspirin and maybe naproxen, can cause cardiovascular issues. This is believed to be due to the role prostaglandins play in the kidneys in homeostasis of blood pressure, as well as the theorized expression of COX-2 in some of the vascular system. You may have read about Vioxx, which was the COX-2 selective inhibitor NSAID, which was withdrawn due to issues over it's adverse effects. Aspirin doesn't have this effect because it inhibits the formation of coagulating agents without affecting the prostaglandins involved in blood pressure and maintenance of the vasculature.

There are other problems that can develop as well, apart from gastrointestinal and cardiovascular you can also experience salt imbalances and acidosis. Although serious complications are considerably rare, you are risking the chance of them by using ibuprofen at above recommended levels. How long it takes to start causing you problems may depend on your individual biochemistry; one study put the start of increased cardiovascular risks for rofecoxib (Vioxx) at the second month. The FDA investigation into that drug after the controversy gave a finding that it's risks weren't considerably greater then other NSAIDS, potentially including OTC ones, and that an investigation should be made into those risks.

So there you have it; using a high dose of ibuprofen regularly can definitely put you at risk of harm. The most likely problem is an ulcer, which you may not notice until it becomes very serious.

Sorry if that's an overload of information... I really do enjoy pharmacology. :)

I was once purely interested in neuropharmacology, especially during the first few years here on BL but I've since expanded my interest to all drugs and how they work. I think it's amazing that chemical compounds we create or find in nature can affect the body in such varied ways.
 
Hmmm.... so what you are saying is that it is possible that i may have caused some damage without noticing any symptoms yet. so ulcers may be asymptomatic until it gets serious?

I'll endeavor from now on just to do CWEs.
 
do you know if the other components of a CWE will react with the NaOH? I can't even remember what else is in a tablet off the top of my head, but it might be a good idea to see whether all the brands react in the same way
 
^ Yes, sometimes people don't notice them until they have experience massive pain from a perforation.

Sometimes, symptoms are vague enough that they are ignored; some abdominal pain, before or after meals, unusual feelings in the stomach that some interpret as just hunger. Commonly they are noticed before becoming serious, but sometimes not.

A CWE is a good idea. If it's too hard to do on N+, perhaps consider switching to another product?

ETA: Good idea perthboy, I'm about ready to retire right now but I will look into that tomorrow afternoon. Off the top of my head, the only other reactions I can think of are creating bases out of some of the ingredients that are salts, oxidation... but I will discover what I can about those possible reactions tomorrow. :)
 
I think this is a great thread.

I have been CWEing every few months or so for a year or two now so not much experience there.

I loved the idea but when I use a pack of 12 nuero + or 8 panadine fortes, I always have this feeling under my right ribcage which feels like my liver has taken a hit. I get the same feeling after a bottle of vodka or sometimes when I have shot up meth/ice.

I am not sure if this is my paranoia, but it feels like the codeine high is not worth the anxiety I get from this very slight but noticable feeling, becuase I spend the whole time thinking if this method is hurting me. The reason as well for this paranoia, is when I eat say 3 tablets I don't have any feeling at all and that makes me think the CWE is doing damage, small but some damage none the less.

Maybe its all in my mind, but it is quite annoying.

Does anyone else experience this?

I always make sure I filter well, and now prefer to use APAP products instead of neurofen becuase I only use max 8 tablets of "panadeine extra" which is 500mg APAP to 15mg codeine and the solution is always clear.

I used to use neurofen but I stopped that cause the solution was always white and I was not sure if it was filtering out properly or not. Also I might add I tried to do 48 tablets once (kinda stupid i know) but that completely made me so itchy it was uncomfortable and i fainted in a resturant about 1 hour after which was fuckin embarrasing as i was with my girlfriend and friends.

Anyways this has turned into a bit of a rant and I'm not sure if this the right area to post (so mods remove if so wish) but maybe someone as some answers for me?

Regards

SpiritFolk,
 
Being an alcoholic, I can tell you that I have a near constant pain underneath my right hand rib cage, and yes, it is your liver. I've lacerated mine in a car accident, and it's not a nice pain to live with constantly.

Even though I feel pain, I've had mine tested several times, and the liver function tests come back normal, so I wouldn't say that pain = liver damage. Also, mine has a huge scar tissue on it, so your mileage may vary.

The good thing is, the liver can and does heal itself very well if you give it a break, so a month or two in between CWE's lkike you're doing, I'd say you're fine. I pummel my liver near daily and it seems to hold up ok :)

If you are overly worried, I'd stick to using codeine + ibuprofen tablets for CWE, nurofen plus brand is known to be very poor for dissolving in water and has a lot of difficulty removing binding agents etc., try a generic version of ibu/codeine. Panafen plus is a brand that I use regularly.
 
^^ thanks for the reply opi8,

I too regulary drink heavy amounts depending on how much i'm working, and usually consume a bottle of vodka/scotch during the course of a day, so that is probably why I get this feeling under my ribcage when I CWE.

So thank you in confirming this pain as I was always sure it was my liver but sometimes liked to hold on to the thread of thought that maybe it was just some irregular feeling, as addiction can trick you like that.

Yes I don't CWE much, but I hope Mr blonde is successful in finding a technique that can let you know for sure how much APAP your solution contains as I do like the idea of knowing you have a solution mainly concerning codeine without much APAP and being able to do a test that lets you know pretty much for sure.... would be fantastic.

Good Luck with your expirments Mr Blonde, I wish you and therefore all of us CWE users success in knowing the safest way to complete a CWE.

Peace.
 
Damn I knew people didn't use lye for extractions containing APAP because of the colour change but never thought of it being used as an indicator. Good idea Mr. Blonde!

The reaction between NaOH and APAP leaves you with sodium acetate and the oxy-amino-benzene remnants. The remnants I believe will still form a salt with the sodium so you may have to acidify as well depending on what compound is a different colour. I feel like the level of brown could be heavily dependent on temperature as well making a few more variables then just a simple indicator.

Let me name it properly and preform a search...I suppose aminophenol or oxyphenylamine?
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14372
That looks most promising. I'm a little tired to read it now but it seems to have all the info you would need.
 
I'm inclined to say that at the temperature range we'd be considering, there will only be a slight change to the rate of the reaction, and besides most people would be using cold water and/or putting it in a fridge to chill further so the temperature difference between the CWEs people perform would only be slight.

That said it wouldn't hurt to double check, and sorry if anything in this post is wrong, I rarely CWE

edit: why would you want to acidify as well?
 
opi8 said:
Being an alcoholic, I can tell you that I have a near constant pain underneath my right hand rib cage, and yes, it is your liver. I've lacerated mine in a car accident, and it's not a nice pain to live with constantly.

Even though I feel pain, I've had mine tested several times, and the liver function tests come back normal, so I wouldn't say that pain = liver damage. Also, mine has a huge scar tissue on it, so your mileage may vary.

The good thing is, the liver can and does heal itself very well if you give it a break, so a month or two in between CWE's lkike you're doing, I'd say you're fine. I pummel my liver near daily and it seems to hold up ok :)

If you are overly worried, I'd stick to using codeine + ibuprofen tablets for CWE, nurofen plus brand is known to be very poor for dissolving in water and has a lot of difficulty removing binding agents etc., try a generic version of ibu/codeine. Panafen plus is a brand that I use regularly.
Click to expand...


dude that pain might be ur kidneys YO.

cuz i get the exact same pain. sometimes on both sides. sometimes one side.
and i know its from my K abuse. K PWNS kidney
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top