Was it "ego-death" or just a confused brain?

[Ismene]

Out-of-body experiences are not "spiritual" phenomenon but tricks played by a confused mind, claim scientists who fooled people into thinking they inhabited the body of a virtual human.

Throughout history people have described how they have floated from their bodies and looked back at themselves, often when close to death or on the operating table.

The accounts have been so vivid that they are often cited as proof of the existence of the soul or Heaven.

But scientists now claim they have dispelled this myth by artificially creating an out-of-body experience using computers and cameras.

They believe the feeling of detachment occurs when the brain becomes confused by conflict between the senses - and is not proof of any "spiritual dimension" to existence.

Dr Blanke said: "Instead of it being a spiritual thing, it is the brain being confused. Why do we think that it is spiritual when we don't think a phantom limb when one is lost is an example of the paranormal."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...-are-just-the-product-of-a-confused-mind.html

 

[basement_shaman]

Well, obviously. Why else would dissociative hallucinogens work as well as they do?

 

[AfterGlow]

What he's saying is that spirituality is not proof of spiritual existence outside of the human body. It is simply the mind trying to make sense of unusual circumstances and arriving at an erroneous conclusion that there is something beyond the physical.

 

[Shambles]

Oddly enough the documentary I posted in the last ego death thread has a section on this experiment. Has been a well-known effect easy to replicate for years so not sure what the article is trying to say really. It's a simple thing to be conscious and have your perceptions manipulated to produce these kinda effects. NDE/OOBE experiences strike me as being rather different - particularly the former due to the lack of consciousness at the time and the accurate details frequently given when they "come back". Ego death itself has nowt to do with any of these things either really as it's not an OOBE as such. Tis a cool experiment though. Would love to have a go at it

 

[Survived Abortion]

Good find Ismene. It shows that researchers in the scientific profession are still deperately looking for any evidence that proves that humans know the answer to everything.

The accounts have been so vivid that they are often cited as proof of the existence of the soul or Heaven.

But scientists now claim they have dispelled this myth by artificially creating an out-of-body experience using computers and cameras.

I don't think so. If the experiment is to shine light on anything, it shows that such phenomenon are indeed real, and gives a possible explanation as to what is happening in the physical (local) arena during such states.

The simultaneous visual and tactile cues are clearly yet another methodology the mind can use in order to detatch itself from the localised parameters it has set itself. People do not think they become the character in the screen. They project their awareness forward from what was originally the perceived spacial location. Any (possible) understanding of where this spacial awareness may reside in the physical brain does nothing to suggest the lack of a "spiritual" dimention to ultimate reality. On the contrary, it simply gives more credence to it, by showing that what we cannot measure with our instruments is intimately connected with what we can.

It's like the guy with the "God Helmet". He really thought he'd made a breakthrough in succeeding to disprove a Divine aspect to reality when he found that strong magnetic inductions near the head could give rise to the sensations of entities nearby. What he didn't anticipate was that he merely invented yet another way to catalyze the physical change needed to see beyond the normal domain of the senses.

 

[Vader]

It shows that researchers in the scientific profession are still deperately looking for any evidence that proves that humans know the answer to everything.

If they thought that they knew the answer to everything they wouldn't be researchers, would they now?

 

[Shambles]

^ I concur. Am not a fan of science-bashing cos the bashers often seem to have little idea of what they are bashing (not meaning you SA - but there are many who do fit the description). I science partly due to the humility involved. It shows the awesome complexity and beauty of the universe without claiming to know or understand it all. Some scientists will always be dicks and statements like that quoted by SA may be an example of that. Or, possibly more likely, an example of a lazy journalist grossly simplifying whatever was actually said.

 

[IamMe90]

Good find Ismene. It shows that researchers in the scientific profession are still deperately looking for any evidence that proves that humans know the answer to everything.

you are a huge tool

I don't think so. If the experiment is to shine light on anything, it shows that such phenomenon are indeed real, and gives a possible explanation as to what is happening in the physical (local) arena during such states.

what it shows is that "spiritual" phenomena are increasingly able to be explained in material terms while the "spiritual" aspect remains as inexplicable as ever. the basic deduction someone would make is that these phenomena are more likely physical rather than spiritual. "hurr hurr you're just showing the physical catalysts for spirituality" is denial in the face of increasing evidence that these experiences are NOT spiritual and are indeed physical in nature.

 

[.dp]

everything you see is made up in your brain... it s psychich.
the real physical environment is too complex, nobody really knows how it looks, basically a huge mock up of electro-magnetic waves which is reduced to the necessary for us to function by our brain.

anyway, i d advice this book which is really great.

 

[psood0nym]

Boo, I thought I was going to learn how to induce virtual out of body visual perception, but this is just proprioceptive trickery, like the next logical extension of the rubber hand and hammer trick, but not as funny. I experience this cool but far from full-on "out of body" experience all the time on various drugs, especially tryptamine/ketamine mixtures -- and when I'm lucky enough to experience it, during lucid hypnogogic states where I can feel myself in bed but also flying, falling out of bed, etc.

I'm blanking on the name of he condition, but there are people who, often after experiencing a terrible trauma, perceive that they are out of their bodies indefinitely. But they're of course not really, their new perspective is a fascinating integration of imagination and mental rotation of the scene in front of their eyes. For example, they may perceive themselves from behind, but if you hold up a card with a word on it behind their heads they can't read it. I was hoping to find out how to perceive like they do using less drastic means.

 

[Shambles]

Somewhat vaguely related - The Man Who Lost His Body is a fascinating documentary about a very rare condition that causes the patient to totally lose all connection with his/her sense of proprioception. The mind boggles at quite how it must be to live totally dislocated from your own body but still able to feel and move it as you please.

The Secret You is the one I mentioned earlier that features a version of this experiment amongst other techniques that explore the concept of the Self. Tis a favourite of mine and highly recommended to all

 

[allium]

^ There is a book from Oliver Sacks, "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat". It is a great read, and it describes other conditions besides losing sense of proprioception, like, for example, inability to recognize faces.

 

[Shambles]

^ I enjoyed that book a lot. His better known Awakenings is also good but is obviously focussed on one particular condition rather than a range. I find these rare and quite frankly unimaginably bizarre conditions absolutely fascinating. Suspect there is much to be learnt from them when addressing concepts of mind and Self and so on too.

 

[Survived Abortion]

you are a huge tool

What the fuck is your problem pal?

 

[SKL]

This is abstruse, I know, and written sort of in a flash, so feel free to tell me if it doesn't make sense, but this is as near as I can come to an approximation of my opinion on the matter:

Personally, I am both agnostic and utilitarian on this issue -- I think it does not matter. By their fruits shall they be known. Also, the idea that having defined a neurological correlate for something is having located that "something" qua phenomenon or nosologic entity (i.e., the fallacious argument that "X" can be reduced to a 'brain disease' because individuals who meet the diagnostic criteria for "X" have predictable differences in neurological imaging/testing with regards to the general population), is a kind of incomplete epiphenomenalism. There are several problems with this. According to various propositions that I take a priori consciousness is, definitionally, not able to be reduced to an an "object" that can be located and referenced, and even if a "part" or a "manifestation" of consciousness may be correlated to a locatable, reducible object, this does not mean that consciousness is "in", or "derives from", or a "manifestation of" the locatable, reducible object. Correlation does not equal causation, and consciousness is not a "thing" so much as a "mode of doing things." It is not ontologically useful.

(from here; Izzy we want you ... )

 

[radric davis]

Wow i've been looking a ton at NDEs and I find this thread. I'm surprised no one has posted the story of Pam Reynolds pam reynolds To me her case is especially interesting because it is one of the most empirically documented cases of no brain activity butyet some sort of perception. It also is eerie how much high dose ketamine can resemble these feelings described. Death might be some sort of energy transition state where consciousness remains but in a much different form than our physical perceptions allow us to see. Ketamines unique effect of dissociating the body from the senses could in a theory (with no proof behind it) cause some sort of halfway NDE type state by cutting the brain off from all senses but not shutting down vital functions. In this state consciousness is stuck between the physical world and whatever existance is beyond it (I doubt its religeous in the traditional sense). What do you guys think about NDE in general or Ketamines similiarities with them. BTW there was a study on EEG activity while under Ketamine but the PDF was $34.00. I'm sure thatd be an interesting read.

 

[Survived Abortion]

@Shambles: I agree mate. I love the sciences too, and have been passionate about them since I was a young boy (I went on to do A level Physics, Chemistry, and Math). I always wanted to be able to explain how things worked, and also why they worked (metaphysics). I am most definitely not anti-science, I don't believe I'm anti anything - apart from the desire to remain ignorant. Having already been involved with using psychedelics since I was at uni, I was constantly fascinated at the parallels between the more far-out areas of nuclear/quantum mechanics and those of the psychedelic experience. In my far-too-extensive trials with ketamine I was very much caught up in the ramifications of planck scale physics in the mind. I have found the work of Vilayanur Ramachandran and other eminent neurologists to be highly engrossing, as well as the psychological academia of neuro linguistic programming and social engineering among many things. I'd like to make it clear that when I state my opnions on these matters, I am not bashing science. Science and spirituality are not opposed, as some people seem to promote, and I am certainly not opposed to scientific explanations of external things in the world in which I function as an autonomous organism. These two things are one, except that spiritual matters can only be investigated and pursued within oneself.

@psood0nym: I know the condition you mean. I think it's one of the dissociative disorders, maybe linked to PTSD. I had a friend who was going through a really rough time mentally. She'd never taken any psychedelic drugs before. After a few months of manic symptoms, she went in to a very deep depression, where she lost her boundaries. She would ring me up and tell me that she couldn't tell where her hands ended and here computer began.

@radric davis: It's funny, because I used to think that ketamine was a drug that caused the NDE phenomenon, and I found it a fascinating drug to use. Having had many sober astral projection experiences and a true NDE however, I can say that they are not really much alike. There are some similarities in the description, but the actual experience is almost entirely different.

 

[psood0nym]

Somewhat vaguely related - The Man Who Lost His Body is a fascinating documentary about a very rare condition that causes the patient to totally lose all connection with his/her sense of proprioception. The mind boggles at quite how it must be to live totally dislocated fro.m your own body but still able to feel and move it as you please.

Wow, I just finished that. What a testament to the power of conscious awareness. Thanks Shambles.

 

[any major dude]

interesting side note, the Posterior Parietal lobe contains a small area more or less responsible for determining the boundaries between self and other. If the left(IIRC, i could have this backwards) is lesioned, damaged, deactivated with magnets, etc the individual will have a lot of difficulty orienting themselves in space, moving, etc. If the right is likewise incapacitated the individual will have a propensity for unitary experiences usually interpreted as spiritual or self-transcendent. Also one can induce an OOBE by electrically stimulating the temporoparietal junction, which is near the posterior parietal cortex

 

[Solipsis]

Seems like this is about a loss of proprioception, which is part of the experience of the self but not equal to what people call the ego.
I don't think the term ego is particularly un-scientific, it's just a little vague where to draw the line where self-awareness stops exactly... other than that it is just the same as individual consciousness.
Something I don't want to make statements about is what it is exactly that goes on to feel consciousness beyond that point. I think it's logical though that the less that consciousness can be experienced to fit in the model of a human mental experience the less it can be integrated afterwards. It's a gradual scale towards the mystical, which cannot be explained probably because some forms of 'just being' are fundamentally not connected to any rational level.

If you take the DMT experience for instance, I don't believe there is any particular spiritual dimension other than the one inside your head, which is severely amplified and distorted. The entities and images are probably all part of mechanisms that try to make sense of the overwhelming incoherent information and figments of your own imagination.

As an attitude I don't think its very appealing to try and dismiss spiritual experiences because they sound like a load of crap, in my opinion it is more elegant to try and see how these altered states of consciousness sometimes described in spiritual terms do indeed also have this scientific explanation and they pretty much mean the same thing. Only the terminology is hopeless to try and integrate - its like languages talking about different sides of things, different perspectives, different values.
I still think a major folly of man is the attempt to cut up things with dichotomies like internal/external, mind/body. You try to step out of yourself when you want to do that and nobody can. It's foolish and what matters is the value patterns between them.

Ah I see that shambles already said that ego-death has little to do with this. Yeah the term is not used appropriately here.