Taking LSD when terminally ill

[3rd_I_blind]

I think the main feature of a DMT trip for just about everyone with their eyes closed would be an explosion of colour and complex geometric patterns. Not floating down a dark tunnel to a single white light. Most researches think Ketamine is more like a NDE than DMT but to be honest I wouldn't say Ketamine is much like one either.

The point that I tried to make is that you are obviously misinformed about what a NDE would produce in terms of visuals/experiences.
The dark tunnel with a single light is not the only thing people report, in fact it's only reported in about 30%. SOURCE
It's just a popular image of the NDE, so as I said earlier: Please do the research instead of resorting to pseudoscience.

And THIS is an article providing evidence for the presence of DMT in the human brain.

 

[Ismene]

No, you are obviously misinformed if you think NDE's are like a DMT trip. As I've already explained I have heard very few NDE's describing explosions of colours and complex geometric psychedelic patterns.

If you can link me to NDE's where people are meeting DMT elves then please do so. But don't try and say that because people have "out of body" or "meet beings of light" that means it's like a DMT trip because that doesn't even qualify as pseudoscience, in fact it struggles to qualify as frogshit.

And try and do a bit more research - as I suggested, you should concentrate on earlier research like "Life after Life" rather than reports on the internet.

 

[Legerity]

If I was right at the point of death I do not think I would want to be tripping. Maybe in the period of time leading up to that, if I felt I had not come to terms with my mortality and that a psychedelic experience might help me work through that. But otherwise I would imagine that the process of dying would be a sufficiently interesting experience in itself.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

No, you are obviously misinformed if you think NDE's are like a DMT trip.

I have never said that I think it is like a DMT trip or that NDE's are catalyzed by the release of DMT.
I only corrected you on your 'tunnel with white light' theory of NDE's.

If you would have read the reference I gave you, you could have seen that:
- 24% reports out of body experiences
- 23% reports communication with mysterious entities
- 23% reports seeing of vivid colours
- 29% reports observation of dreamlike landscapes
Also, 8% of subjects reports the 'crossing of a border', much like the border you can experience when you are about to take off after inhaling DMT.
Again, I'm not saying it has anything to do with DMT, I am just highlighting the similarties between the two.
And I agree that some of the phenomena are more like ketamine.

But I guess you prefer acting all tough and shit, calling it 'frogshit'.
I bet you actually do get extra pussy acting that way.

 

[Ismene]

LSD can help ease pain - often a lot more effectively than morphine. If you were dying screaming in agony perhaps that would be reason enough to take it?

A lot of doctors are wary of prescribing people enough morphine - there's a lot of reports of old people dying whimpering in agony because the doctor doesn't want to be blamed for overdosing them.

 

[Ismene]

I only corrected you on your 'tunnel with white light' theory of NDE's.
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No you didn't correct anything. Try and argue with what I actually said rather than what you want me to have said. I never said everyone saw a tunnel with white light. I said dark tunnels doesn't sound like DMT to me. Does it sound like DMT to you?

23% reports seeing of vivid colours

Only 23% see vivid colours? Have you ever taken DMT? How often do you see vivid colours? Something like 100% of the time right? If you arn't seeing vivid colours when you take DMT then you need to check what you're taking because it isn't DMT.

Also, 8% of subjects reports the 'crossing of a border', much like the border you can experience when you are about to take off after inhaling DMT

Or it could simply to be what they perceive as the border between life and death. Nothing to do with the come-up from DMT.

I bet you actually do get extra pussy acting that way

I am too busy taking drugs to get extra pussy.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

I said dark tunnels doesn't sound like DMT to me. Does it sound like DMT to you?

Nope, but that's not the point here.
The point is that you came up with that tunnel story, as if all NDE's where centered around that.
So I am trying to show you that there are also reports of other things, things that do resemble some of the experiences you can have while on DMT.

If you know a bit about how the brain works, it should be obvious that an endogeneous DMT trip would be different from vaporising 30 mg and inhaling it.
There is no way 30 mg of DMT could be set free instantly in the brain.
So that could be an explanation why the reports are not comparable to a peak of DMT, where you see visions all the time etc.
Just like endorphin release is not comparable to injecting heroin, or feeling happy is not the same as the serotonin release caused by MDMA.

I agree on the border thing, that by itself it is crappy evidence at the most.
But I was just being thorough and summing up all things mentioned that could provide support for the DMT theory.

 

[hydrochron]

The question is when your dieing and having a spiritual experience. Do you think you'll see it better through morphine? Or LSD.

Serious question.

 

[Ismene]

The point is that you came up with that tunnel story, as if all NDE's where centered around that.

No, I never said they centered around that - tho even you claimed 30% saw tunnels - which is a higher percentage than for anything else experienced. I said it didn't sound like a DMT trip to me.

There is no way 30 mg of DMT could be set free instantly in the brain.
So that could be an explanation why the reports are not comparable to a peak of DMT, where you see visions all the time etc.

Not sure that logic works. I usually find that by the time you're being abducted by aliens you've gone quite long way over the stage of seeing "vivid colours". If you're seeing "beings of light" and "communicating with the dead" on DMT then I think you've got to have seen vivid colours.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

I usually find that by the time you're being abducted by aliens you've gone quite long way over the stage of seeing "vivid colours". If you're seeing "beings of light" and "communicating with the dead" on DMT then I think you've got to have seen vivid colours.

Knowing a thing or two about pharmacology, I actually think this is supporting instead of disproving.
If you vaporize and inhale DMT, you have a large peak concentration of DMT, which rapidly declines.
So in the peak of your DMT experience, you only see colours, geometric figures and nothing you can really make sense of.
But when the concentration of DMT decreases, you are starting to see the elves and communicate with the energy around you etc.

Now back to the endogenous release of DMT.
You start off at zilch, and slowly there is more DMT being produced.
This would make it logical that you would start with the less intense effects, that slowly develop towards a peak experience after inhaling DMT.
Although you'd probably never reach the same peak level, since you'd either be dead, or be brought back to the real world.

Perhaps the tunnel effect and out-of-body experience is caused by a different chemical release, for instance an endogenous NMDA-antagonist.
If this takes place before increase of DMT - which could be likely, since DMT has to be produced from tryptophan, while NMDA-antagonist are omnipresent in the brain - it makes sense to me that people report the tunnel experience when they only have a 'short' NDE, but if they are 'on the edge' for a bit longer, they are getting more of the DMT-like effects.

Again, it's all just speculation.
But I believe this is a lot more interesting and constructive than dismissing everything based on the notion of 'a dark tunnel is not seen during DMT'.
Just as I highlighted before: endorphins are not causing a heroin-high either, but they do exist.

 

[panic in paradise]

i think about hospice a lot, and psychedelics with the dying.

and DMT, K, MDxx seem a right of insight and passage.
DMT doesn't have to be full on gloria, ive used small amounts of K, and DMT together with brilliant results...
moderate doses, larger, and the sustenance can all be controlled, so if any negative psychological disturbances begin to occur, they will soon 'come-down' on their own, at their own pace.
mescaline, psilocybin, LSD all seem a bit cruel to me; although all ive read have been positive results. the guaranteed long trip, and possible contraindications with other medications, if a "freak-out" occurs wouldn't convince myself other wise, receiving or administering.

if one can be allowed to go to the max with opioids and who knows what else, this can be greatly deserved for the right participants. ketamine is used often already for opioid resistant terminally-ill patients.

 

[Eracerhed]

I would be open to being dosed with LSD if I was dying. I think it would make a for a very gorgeous ride to the other side... Or the end.

 

[Ismene]

Perhaps the tunnel effect and out-of-body experience is caused by a different chemical release, for instance an endogenous NMDA-antagonist.

Does it have to be caused by any form of psychedelic drug tho? Can't the brain simply think of these things all by itself? We could go down the route of saying "Well, I see things in dreams like beautiful landscapes and friends who have died, so does that mean dreaming is the same as DMT?" I personally don't think they're anything to do with each other.

Again, it's all just speculation.

True. I'm just wondering whether you need DMT to explain any of the things the brain comes up with when you realise you're dying. If you sit down and close your eyes and let your imagination wander you can conjure up some pretty incredible things.

 

[Ismene]

mescaline, psilocybin, LSD all seem a bit cruel to me; although all ive read have been positive results. the guaranteed long trip, and possible contraindications with other medications, if a "freak-out" occurs wouldn't convince myself other wise, receiving or administering.

True, it would mean a long trip, I'm wondering whether a terminally ill person could digest the mushrooms or mescaline without throwing it all back up again. Maybe LSD would be the easiest one of them to digest? It does last an awful long time tho - it may be physically stressfull.

if one can be allowed to go to the max with opioids and who knows what else

I was reading recently about how hard it is to get doctors to give the dying enough heroin to ease their pain. A lot of doctors are frightened of being viewed as a Harold Shipman type. A guy was saying how he had to go out and score some heroin on the street to give to his dying mother because she was in so much pain in the hospital and the doctors wouldn't prescribe enough for her.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

Does it have to be caused by any form of psychedelic drug tho? Can't the brain simply think of these things all by itself?

The problem is that the brain can't 'think'. Everything you see or feel is caused by molecules that act on receptors in your brain. Psychedelics work on this same receptors. Therefore, if you feel or see something that is resembling a psychedelic experience, it is a logical assumption that the same receptors are activated as when you use that psychedelic.

Combine this knowledge with the fact that the body will never endogeneously produce compounds that do not have a function (except for metabolism of foodstuff in the liver). So the presence of DMT inside the human brain, means that there is a function for that DMT. This does not necessarily have to be a logical or important function.

Now add the fact that DMT is only produced when certain other molecules are not present. (This is because the responsible enzyme has a stronger affinity for those molecules) Then theorize what will happen with the level of important molecules in your brain when you are sleeping (metabolism slows down, brain activity is lower) or when you are dying (low blood oxygen -> metabolism slows down, who knows what else - release of endorphins???). Now imagine a DMT trip on a threshold level, 10-15 mg or something, and combine that with certain experiences you can have in a dream, or with events described during a NDE.

Again, just speculation. But isn't it intriguing to say the least? And don't you think it sounds very plausible, or at least like the best explanation we can come up with? Again: You cannot feel/see/hear/experience anything without the binding of molecules to receptors in your brain!

 

[IamMe90]

True, it would mean a long trip, I'm wondering whether a terminally ill person could digest the mushrooms or mescaline without throwing it all back up again. Maybe LSD would be the easiest one of them to digest? It does last an awful long time tho - it may be physically stressfull.

if one can be allowed to go to the max with opioids and who knows what else

I was reading recently about how hard it is to get doctors to give the dying enough heroin to ease their pain. A lot of doctors are frightened of being viewed as a Harold Shipman type. A guy was saying how he had to go out and score some heroin on the street to give to his dying mother because she was in so much pain in the hospital and the doctors wouldn't prescribe enough for her.

keep in mind hospice is an option which will pretty much guarantee you effective palliative treatment

 

[swilow]

At the moment of death, I want to be as completely aware as I can. Its (literally) a once-in-a-lifetime experience, and probably the greatest mystery to exist in the universe; I want to a least glimpse what it is before I'm turned into nothing.

But- I can surely see some psychedelics being a positive adjunct for the terminally ill. I can also see a lot of negatives though....

 

[Ismene]

Therefore, if you feel or see something that is resembling a psychedelic experience, it is a logical assumption that the same receptors are activated as when you use that psychedelic.

Not sure that follows. Most people have what they would call experiences of "unity" or "feeling at one with everything" in lots of ways - seeing their children, playing a round of golf, watching a football final. I think we're in danger of imposing our idea of psychedelic on everyone. My granny would get a wonderful "psychedelic" feeling out of seeing her grandkids - I doubt she'd enjoy being blasted into DMT-space. Lets not automatically assume that "if it sounds like a psychedelic experience" then it must be something to do with psychedelic drugs.

Combine this knowledge with the fact that the body will never endogeneously produce compounds that do not have a function

Maybe. But didn't Shulgin say something like "DMT is everywhere"? It's produced by lots of living things including trees. Perhaps it's a byproduct of other vital processes?

Now imagine a DMT trip on a threshold level, 10-15 mg or something, and combine that with certain experiences you can have in a dream, or with events described during a NDE.

I think you might be reaching there a bit third eye Can't we explain dreams and NDE's perfectly well without DMT?

And don't you think it sounds very plausible, or at least like the best explanation we can come up with?

The trouble I have with it is that DMT is nothing like dreaming. It feels like a completely different brain process.

 

[Ismene]

Therefore, if you feel or see something that is resembling a psychedelic experience, it is a logical assumption that the same receptors are activated as when you use that psychedelic.

Not sure that follows. Most people have what they would call experiences of "unity" or "feeling at one with everything" in lots of ways - seeing their children, playing a round of golf, watching a football final. I think we're in danger of imposing our idea of psychedelic on everyone. My granny would get a wonderful "psychedelic" feeling out of seeing her grandkids - I doubt she'd enjoy being blasted into DMT-space. Lets not automatically assume that "if it sounds like a psychedelic experience" then it must be something to do with psychedelic drugs.

Combine this knowledge with the fact that the body will never endogeneously produce compounds that do not have a function

Maybe. But didn't Shulgin say something like "DMT is everywhere"? It's produced by lots of living things including trees.

Now imagine a DMT trip on a threshold level, 10-15 mg or something, and combine that with certain experiences you can have in a dream, or with events described during a NDE.

I think you might be reaching there a bit third eye Can't we explain dreams and NDE's perfectly well without DMT?

And don't you think it sounds very plausible, or at least like the best explanation we can come up with?

The trouble I have with it is that DMT is nothing like dreaming. It feels like a completely different brain process.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

I think we're in danger of imposing our idea of psychedelic on everyone. My granny would get a wonderful "psychedelic" feeling out of seeing her grandkids - I doubt she'd enjoy being blasted into DMT-space. Lets not automatically assume that "if it sounds like a psychedelic experience" then it must be something to do with psychedelic drugs.

You're right, but that's a small step extra compared with what I meant... I do not mean that the feeling is caused by an endogenous psychedelic drug. But if you feel - for instance - very euphoric, it seems logical the receptors involved are the same receptors that are activated when you have MDMA in your system. So I'm not explaining every feeling by the release of a certain psychedelic by your brain, but we can (and do, btw) use the receptor binding profile of psychedelics to theorize which receptors are activated during certain feelings/experiences. For instance, ketamine and PCP have been used to evaluate the positive symptoms of schizophrenia.

But didn't Shulgin say something like "DMT is everywhere"? It's produced by lots of living things including trees.

Well, he wrote it so he'll probably have said it also. ;-P But DMT in plants is - I believe - mostly for self-protection or as an intermediate in metabolism. Plants don't have brains, so DMT can't really psycho-active properties in plants. But since it is also produced in mammals, it must have a function there too.

I think you might be reaching there a bit third eye Can't we explain dreams and NDE's perfectly well without DMT?

That's exactly the problem: AFAIK, we can't explain dreams and NDE's. Therefore, it's nice to stray off the beaten path and fill in the gaps with things we do know. Some people think it takes away the magic, when you start explaining feelings and emotions on the level of receptor activation. But I just think it becomes extra interesting if you can explain how it all fits together.