• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist

Is it okay for vegans to eat oysters?

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I'm happy for anyone to review it, but you are viewing things through strong filters, ones which ignore the context of the discussion (that is the third time you made the same exact mistake with the same quote) and thus changing the meaning to suit your already preconceive ideas. I'm not the one in denial.

considering we both have obviously biased views on our posts, who has others substantiating what they are claiming? d_9 for one, does not support your assertion that we are in favour of the killing endangered species.

btw: busty is a bloke.
 
Sorry "Busty", but "Busty St. Clare" sounded like a chick to me. It still does. I don't usually make assumptions.

L2R, you have yet to offer an alternate explanation for the quote.

Please do.

(Regardless, Busty (bloke or not) has unquestionably done what you are saying you have not, which I really don't give a shit about, and don't want to bother backtracking through a thread, but to me it seems like you did do it too. But honestly, whatever. I'd rather continue the discussion without accusations (you started them, if you look back) or tangents. Either way I am at least half right. That's good enough. I don't give a shit. I can be half wrong if you like.)

If you'd like to continue debating this with me, please do via PM as some people have indicated that they are interested in the topic rather than the bullshit surrounding it.

:)
 
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I'm just a troll (hell, I am a Lounge mod ;) ), and I like to debate. Personally I don't eat predatory mammals because they would generally taste rubbish. Give me a good grain fed herbivore steak any day. I have eaten dolphin, and although it didn't taste too bad, like some one said being a large predatory fish, high on the food chain, they contain a lot of heavy metals. I don't see dolphins as an endangered species either, maybe where you are, but here they are easy to spot every day I head to the local beaches to camp. It's not an animal I would eat again as I was fortunate to be given to opportunity to taste it, an honour in fact that they offered it to me in the first place.

I still contend that large plants, particularly ancient trees have a complex net work of "brain like" tissues that render them on equal footing with most animals. Just because they don't scream does not make them less alive. Like you mentioned earlier about a colony of ants being more of a swarming living organism tahn each individual, so I see the root network of a tree, with its millions of root tip synapses being just as conscious as an animal brain. I don't see why animals should be forded greater respect.
 
Just because they don't scream does not make them less alive.

This is very true. I'd feel no different cutting down a tree than killing a chicken. I'd take both very seriously if I found the need to do either. I absolutely believe plants can feel.

This is why my favorite things to eat are things that don't take life at all. Fruit. Seeds and nuts. Things that come off the living being without harming it. Not saying I don't eat other stuff, but those are the things that make me feel the best.
 
It's very clear at this point that you do. I've been following this thread since you started it, and I'm just calling it how I see it. I've got nothing against you or anyone else here.

Believe whatever you have to.

I absolutely believe plants can feel.

Based on what?

I don't see dolphins as an endangered species either

You are an idiot. I'm sorry but at this point of the discussion, that statement is absolutely ridiculous.

I still contend that large plants, particularly ancient trees have a complex net work of "brain like" tissues that render them on equal footing with most animals.

You just making this up?

This discussion seems to be full of things that people "want to believe" that they fail to back up with logic or science.

Just because they don't scream does not make them less alive.

They don't have brains and their edible parts fall off and regrow. They don't have to die to be eaten. Edible plants are obviously meant to be eaten and no respectable scientists believe they can "feel".

The term 'alive' is rather broad.

It is unfortunate that this discussion has regressed to this point. L2R still offers no alternate explanation, Busty still says dolphins aren't endangered. It's just not going anywhere. And I really couldn't be bothered, despite what you believe L2R.

I'm done with this thread until someone other than those two contribute something that isn't circular.

I'd feel no different cutting down a tree than killing a chicken.

I'm not sure if you people are thinking, but you don't cut down trees when you eat an apple.
 
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You are an idiot. I'm sorry but at this point of the discussion, that statement is absolutely ridiculous.

From the Qld Government's Environment and resource site.....

Dolphins in the marine park

Brisbane is unique among the major cities of Australia in having an abundance of dolphins in local waters. Its resident species include:
Bottlenose (Tursiops aduncus)

* There are two populations of bottlenose dolphins in Moreton Bay which are distinguished as

- 'Non-trawler dolphins': found in shallow water, close to shore over seagrass; and
- 'Trawler dolphins': found in deep water, farther from shore where trawlers operate. 5

* Moreton Bay has the largest resident population of bottlenose dolphins in the world.

Unless you come and stay you will just have to take my anecdotal evidence that pods of 20 or more dolphins are commonly seen from my front door all the way down the coast to Byron Bay (around 300km). The humpback whale population is considered "Threatened" and is estimated to be 4000. The dolphin population is sensitive but exact numbers are difficult to determine. You could easily say there would be well in excess of 10 000 in the bay.


You just making this up?

This discussion seems to be full of things that people "want to believe" that they fail to back up with logic or science.

The idea that the root tip, in particular the radicular zone is the plants "brain" was first proposed by Charles Darwin..... I think he was a famous scientist or something. Although each individual root tips synaptic area is small, when you consider the millions of such areas in a large ancient tree you are looking at a processing network that dwarfs many brains in smaller organisms. There is a nice summery here.

Charles Darwin

“It is hardly an exaggeration to say that the tip of the radicle

thus endowed [with sensitivity] and having the power of directing the movements of the adjoining parts, acts like the brain of one of the lower animals; the brain being seated within the anterior end of the body, receiving impressions from the sense-organs, and directing the several movements.” This sentence conveys two important
messages: rst, that the root apex may be considered to be a

‘brain-like’ organ endowed with a sensitivity which controls its navigation through soil;
 
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Thedeceased, i'm going to have to disagree with you about fish not being smart. They are some of the most amazing "animals" on this planet. Now I'll come back with a inteligent argument. But for now I can tell you fish wont bite any lure, they are very gun shy. Fish are very perceptive about what's going on in there environment around them and adapt accordinly.

As for Oysters, they just cant move. There living creatures to, however I dont think it's bad killing any fish/oysters if your going to eat all of them. That's what you gotta live by. Anyways let me come back with some more ammo.
 
Busty, regardless of whether or not there are a concentrated amount of dolphins in a particular area, they are still endangered and you still shouldn't eat them.

You say that there could be 10,000 in the bay. Don't know where you got this number from, but okay. How many will there be in a hundred years if they continue to be eaten? How many was there a thousand years ago?

A single number without context is meaningless.

As for Charles Darwin, his work is 150 years old and although he hypothesized about evolution, most of his species specific statements turned out to be wrong. In terms of modern science, his 150 year old theories are not considered particularly relevant.

The idea that the root tip, in particular the radicular zone is the plants "brain" was first proposed by Charles Darwin..... I think he was a famous scientist or something.

Show me a modern study that concludes that plants have the ability to think. Maybe there is one out there, but it certainly isn't the general consensus. Most studies indicate the opposite.

Galileo (I think he was a famous scientist or something) believed that the sun was at the center of the universe and that everything revolved around it.

No, but you cut down trees to build houses, have paper, burn a fire, etc. We all take life. Even vegans.

Okay but this discussion is largely a comparison between eating plant material and eating animals. A number of people have said that plants feel pain when they are cut down. Do you really believe that plants feel pain when (for example) an apple is removed?

Thedeceased, i'm going to have to disagree with you about fish not being smart. They are some of the most amazing "animals" on this planet. Now I'll come back with a inteligent argument. But for now I can tell you fish wont bite any lure, they are very gun shy. Fish are very perceptive about what's going on in there environment around them and adapt accordinly.

I've done a little reading and I still don't think fish are particularly intelligent. I disagree that they're the most amazing animals. Learning not to go near fishing lures is not proof of individual conscious decision making, as people have been fishing for a long time and all animals naturally build defenses against predators. I'm sure they have some level of intelligence, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it is considerable enough to convince me that they have the capacity to suffer.

As for Oysters, they just cant move. There living creatures to,

They are living, but are they capable of suffering? If yes, explain your reasoning. Why would they be capable of suffering any more than a plant?

however I dont think it's bad killing any fish/oysters if your going to eat all of them. That's what you gotta live by.

Yeah but if it's wrong to eat certain species, as we've established, so which species is it right/wrong to eat? Rather than just not thinking about it, and consuming everything, including endangered species, I'd rather be in touch with what I'm doing and how I feel about it. I don't want to cause suffering.

Anyways let me come back with some more ammo.

Please do.

Thanks people, for contributing valid arguments. It's frustrating when threads are taken over by stubborn insistence rather than the proposition of ideas.
 
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Show me a modern study that concludes that plants have the ability to think. Maybe there is one out there, but it certainly isn't the general consensus. Most studies indicate the opposite.

Ah, the paper I linked to is from 2009. To quote...
Recent advances in chemical ecology reveal the astonishing com- municative complexity of higher plants as exempled by the bat- tery of volatile substances which they produce and sense in order to share with other organisms information about their physiological state.102-109 The next surprise is that plants recognize self from non- self;109 and roots even secrete signaling exudates which mediate kin recognition.10,11 Finally, plants are also capable of a type of plant- specifc cognition,3,110 suggesting that communicative and identity- recognition systems are used, as they are in animal and human societies, to improve the ftness of plants and so further their evolu- tion. Moreover, both animals and plants are non-automatic, deci- sion-based organisms


Democracy has no place in science. If the majority of scientists are wrong, they are still wrong.
 
I still contend that large plants, particularly ancient trees have a complex net work of "brain like" tissues that render them on equal footing with most animals. Just because they don't scream does not make them less alive. Like you mentioned earlier about a colony of ants being more of a swarming living organism tahn each individual, so I see the root network of a tree, with its millions of root tip synapses being just as conscious as an animal brain.

Been watching too much Avatar imo ;)
 
Didn't see the link. Having a look now...

Okay,

The title of the article you linked to is: ''The ‘root-brain’ hypothesis of Charles and Francis Darwin"

The most controversial of the Darwins’ propositions is that roots behave as do lower animals with their apex seated at the anterior pole of the plant body where it acts as a brain-like organ. This so-called ‘Root-Brain’ hypothesis has been forgotten, or ignored, for more than 125 years until we revived it a few years ago.

As I said, Charles Darwin's theories have been largely disproved. Although he is a 'celebrity scientist', he was known for making wild conclusions based on very little evidence. The article you linked to does the same thing. While admittedly not being able to prove the communicative abilities of plants, the study concludes that plants are definitely capable of making decisions. How it leaps to this extraordinary conclusion is not made clear throughout the article.

Neither is why they are revisiting Darwin's disproved theories, other than for the novelty of using his (celebrity) name.

Subsequent studies revealed the underlying cytoplasm of the non-growing cross-wall domain to be specialized for high rates of vesicle recycling based on a system of endocytosis and secretory endosomes. This breakthrough was enabled by making use of the fungal inhibitor, brefeldin A (BFA), which blocks all secretion within eukaryotic cells but leaves endocytosis active and unaffected. As a consequence, all recycling proteins and molecules accumulate rapidly within the cytoplasm, appearing as large roundish BFA-induced compartments. Such compartments were mainly formed in cells of the transition zone of BFA-treated maize roots, indicating the presence there of endocytic structures. Together with the specialized actin/myosin adhesion sites that link the cell cross-wall with the cytoskeleton, the endosomes could contribute to a system of cell-cell communication along the cell files which extend from the tip of the root to its base.

It is all basically conjecture, and it's bad science.

Let's say that plants can communicate. What does that imply?

Chemicals communicate. Micro-organisms communicate (in extraordinarily complex ways). But I don't think anyone is seriously going to argue that chemical reactions/ the relationships between micro-organisms are proof that they (chemicals/micro-organisms) are in any way sentient. Humans communicate chemically. Ants communicate with each other.

What this section of the study^ says is plants may communicate. I don't deny that. In fact, I'm sure they do communicate on some level.

Present day results, however, are increasingly coming to show that, in contrast with the classical view, plants are defnitely not passive automatic organisms.

In the conclusive statements in the opening and closing paragraphs, absolute words are used. The conclusion is indisbutible. Definitely.

Moreover, both animals and plants are non-automatic, decision-based organisms.

And there is a spelling mistake in the final sentence:

Should Charles and Francis Darwin have witnessed these unprecedent discoveries, they would surely have been pleased by them.

Frankly, the article is crap. It is full of bad science. It is the sort of study that has a conclusion in mind before it begins.

The article itself says that the idea of plant intelligence is considered "controversial" by most scientists and that the leading scientists of Darwin's time also rejected it - based on a lack of evidence.
 
Dolphines are highly intelligent creatures.. more so than babies..

Shall we all go eat some babies now?

Nothing was put here to be our food.. we eat because we NEED to. We don't really NEED to eat meat anymore.. we can live without it.. We definately shouldn't be eating higher intelligence creatures that can feel equal amounts (if not more) of fear, love, joy, anger, etc, etc..

Shit's just wrong..

Try thinking about it.. try having a little empathy and putting yourselves in the position of these animals.. May aswell be eating people. Or wait? Huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwJaUFHs-C4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwm4FEB9LC8&feature=fvwrel
 
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Vegans dont want to hurt animals or eat anything that comes out of them right? well oysters are animals arent they?

This is what I was thinking. A vegan, by definition, absolutely does not eat any food that comes from animals and avoids using any products derived from animals. Whether or not oysters are capable of feeling pain or thought, they are still animals. It's a very simple solution to a very simple question. If a person is going to eat oysters he can't really consider himself to be a vegan, can he?

As for the rest of the post, concerning whether or not oysters can feel pain or are capable in any way of thought, I do not know enough to answer that. I suppose we would have to define what pain is and what is required within an animal's body to allow it to feel pain within the scope of our accepted definition of pain.

If, however, you do not mind not being a true vegan and you believe that it is OK to eat oysters, based on everything that you have read about them, then I don't see any problems with you doing so. I think, above all else, the thing that is most important here is whether or not eating oysters would conflict or contradict with your beliefs that dictate your diet.
 
A vegan, by definition, absolutely does not eat any food that comes from animals and avoids using any products derived from animals.

Yes, but why? Isn't the point of veganism more specifically to not contribute to the suffering of living things? If a plant is alive but doesn't suffer and an oyster is alive but doesn't suffer, wouldn't it make more sense for vegans to eat oysters rather than stubbornly adhering to the label "animal"?

There isn't a clear line that separates animal and vegetable. Some things overlap.

Oysters have brains, but there are animals that don't have brains.


Hydra does not have a recognizable brain or true muscles. Nerve nets connect sensory photoreceptors and touch-sensitive nerve cells located in the body wall and tentacles.

If a Hydra is alarmed or attacked, the tentacles can be retracted to small buds, and the body column itself can be retracted to a small gelatinous sphere. Hydras generally react in the same way regardless of the direction of the stimulus, and this may be due to the simplicity of the nerve net.

Nobody has suggested a logical reason as to why oysters would be capable of suffering, but they have tiny tiny brains so I understand how people could assume that they might be able to feel. But, you can't seriously argue that Hydra are capable of thought or capable of suffering. They don't have brains. But they are animals.

Whether or not oysters are capable of feeling pain or thought, they are still animals. It's a very simple solution to a very simple question. If a person is going to eat oysters he can't really consider himself to be a vegan, can he?

It depends on what being vegan really means. I think the word animal is too broad.

What does "animal" mean?

What is the relationship between a Tiger and a Hydra?
 
Just as humans have good and bad members of their society, some dolphins are bad and will deliberately try and hurt you or be an arse.

just like people are good and bad; I believe the dolphin also chooses to be good or bad

humans can be sexually aggressive and so can dolphins

pic related

NSFW:
dolphin1.jpg


Researchers have been studying the sexual behaviour of dolphins intensely for the last decade, after it was discovered they not only partake in homosexual activity (read more HERE), but also gang-rape and kidnap females who don’t reciprocate their sexual advances.

but in a more serious tone, I think everybody here needs to study up on the Philosophy 101 topic of existence/feelings. although an ant, daisy, cat, dolphin and human are alive - I would say that some of these species are more alive than others due to cognitive functioning

whether you chose to eat plants/animals on this very large spectrum of existence/feelings is entirely up to you, and I respect all decisions

I do hope I've picked the right wording here; it's late but I think I've expressed my point sufficiently
 
I think everybody here needs to study up on the Philosophy 101 topic of existence/feelings. although an ant, daisy, cat, dolphin and human are alive - I would say that some of these species are more alive than others due to cognitive functioning

I do hope I've picked the right wording here; it's late but I think I've expressed my point sufficiently

Yep. Spot on. (IMO)

So, again, if there is a sliding scale then isn't it better (for lack of a more appropriate word) to eat plants and animals that aren't conscious/sentient (or at least, aren't comparatively conscious/sentient to other species?)

Pigs are extremely intelligent for example, but generally there seems to be (excluding religious diets) a pretty solid line separating meat eaters and vegetarians.

I know there's a number of variations of vegan/vegetarian. Like octo-lacto-vego-vegan or whatever, but typically people go one way or the other more or less in terms of meat.

I think there is a big difference between eating a mammal and eating a fish. Perhaps as big a difference as there is between eating a plant and an insect. Or more.
 
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Yes, but why? Isn't the point of veganism more specifically to not contribute to the suffering of living things?

I don't think anyone is going to be able to answer this question for you... it would totally depend on the person and why they choose to call themselves vegan.
 
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