Beating the diazepam-monkey w. carisoprodol/phenibut

[Aghast]

Hello friends,

Short presentation: 25, Sweden.

During the last 1,5 years I've been tapering from opiates (8 year habit) and benzos (3 year habit). The worst part - or what I thought was the worst part - namely my love for morphine, was conquered in May with the help of ibogaine. No relapses since.

However, the (official) tapering of benzos are beginning to reach low doses. My doc thinks that I'm all the way down to 6 mg diazepam /day... But after I went on a stupid binge a few months ago with all the prescribed meds, and then ran out, I was so desperate that when I got my hands on anything again (alpra-sticks) a few days later, I just went at it bonanza-style.

It feels like a joke. I was down on 12 mg /day(!) just a few months ago. Since after new years I've been tapering down (incognito/holding face towards the doc) from 50 mg /day to about 25 mg /day. And then I've been trying to push on down towards 15 mg /day, for the last week or so; but the anxiety is just too severe to handle... So I'm back on ~25 mg and all efforts just seem like a big waste (and maybe an evil experiment to boot). Even at the current dosage things are barely holding together.

Onwards to a possible option -

I've ordered phenibut and carisoprodol which will arrive in a day or two. The objective is to move down to maybe 8-12 mg /day in 2-3 weeks time. How would you go about doing this in the smoothest possible way?

I'm thinking 3x4 mg /day and adding phenibut to every dose for a few days. Then switching to carisoprodol, and using that as needed during the week(s) to come. I'll also get some zolpidem for the sleep, short-term.

#1 - phenibut/carisoprodol/zolpidem will of course reduce the tapering effects on GABA, but would it be substantial? I think I'd still "gain", bottom line, but approximately how much in comparison to the benzos? Say 12 mg diazepam + the equivalent of X mg diazepam from these substances = what would you guess?
#2 - would you mix it any other way regarding to the "recipe" outlined above; for instance take the carisoprodol to every dose, and instead use the phenibut as a complement as you go along.

I feel like this whole idea is a crazy stunt and pretty much doomed to fail. But the horror, folks. The horror of doing this in big leaps/cold turkey with just some weak-ass (non-addictive) meds is not something that I think I could cope with right now. Even so magnesium, B6, 5-HTP, strong antihistamines, weak sleeping pills etc is a given.

IF this doesn't work my last resort WILL be to confess to my doc. But I'd hate that, all trust would be gone, and it could also cause problems with my sick pay.

I've tried all the herbs previously, including kratom; which just gives me instant w/d due to my previous opiate-addiction (if I use even a moderate dose of say codeine for more than 2-3 days I get into a full-blown, one week long withdrawal after that - fucked up). The only thing in the herb-genre that hasn't been tested is kava kava... But wtf.

Thanks in advance, brothers and sisters

 

[3dmusic]

Congratulations on beating morphine.

As for the alpra sticks (is that xanax?) what's done is done.
I think its best to be honest with your doctor.

It feels like a joke. I was down on 12 mg /day(!) just a few months ago. Since after new years I've been tapering down (incognito/holding face towards the doc) from 50 mg /day to about 25 mg /day. And then I've been trying to push on down towards 15 mg /day, for the last week or so; but the anxiety is just too severe to handle...

No wonder the anxiety is just too hard to handle.
Are we talking about diazepam?
It's best not to yo-yo the doses up and down with benzos such as diazepam etc, because this just confuses the GABA receptors and makes recovery more difficult, so a steady daily dose is needed.
Also, coming off big doses of benzo is dangerous, you can have siezures, and it can be life threatening. Sorry to scare you, you are safe if you taper correctly and slowly enough.

I'm sorry things are barely holding together for you, but you will get through it and off benzos if you taper properly. 5% - 10% of the dose you are cutting from (not the dose you start from) every 14 -21 days.

I hate to rain on your parade, but phenibut and carisoprodol are both drugs that also act on GABA, keeping it downregulated, and therefore stopping healing. All GABA acting herbs and drugs should be avoided in benzo withdrawal and tapering.

The objective is to move down to maybe 8-12 mg /day in 2-3 weeks time. How would you go about doing this in the smoothest possible way?

IMO there is no smooth way to reduce to 8-12mg per day, as the cuts will be way too big, not giving your body time to readjust.

I would also avoid zolpidem like the plague too, because it is in the same family as benzos, acts on the same receptors, and has the same withdrawal symptoms.

#1 - phenibut/carisoprodol/zolpidem will of course reduce the tapering effects on GABA, but would it be substantial?

It would be disasterous.

B vitamins are known to rev up symptoms in many people tapering from benzos. In fact, it is advisable to avoid all vitamins and supplements and herbal remedies, as many of these can disrupt the sensitive system of someone tapering from benzos.
sleeping pills are definitely a no-no.

If its any consolation, I confessed to my doctor, as I blagged dihydrocodeine, zolpidem and valium off her, basically to abuse and also to use to come down off uppers.
I have manged to re-build trust from my doctor, by sticking to the taper, and by taking that which is prescribed only.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but kava-kava also acts on the GABA system.

Doctors are cluelesss about benzos and you are best really, to contact any organisation that deals with benzo addiction, and visit forums for people dependant on benzos to get the right information.

Have you read the ashton manual, this is what many benzo experts go by, but bear in mind the taper plans in there are a bit aggressive, as the manual was written 30 or so years ago.

Here is a link to the manual http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

You CAN get through this so long as you listen to your body, and taper slowly,plus eating a balanced diet, preferably cooked from scratch, with no artificial colours of flavours, or preservatives, and no mono-sodium-glutamate.
Avoid caffeine, sugar and alcohol. Caffeine and sugar give unwanted stimulation to an already overstimulated nervous system, and alcohol acts on GABA receptor, making the taper and withdrawal period much more uncomfortable.

This is the safest and best way to come off benzos.

I hope this helps. I speak from personal experience about addiction to valium and I understand how the anxiety feels.

 

[Aghast]

Confessions of a benzo-eater

Hey, thanks for the reply!

Congratulations on beating morphine.

As for the alpra sticks (is that xanax?) what's done is done.
I think its best to be honest with your doctor.

Yup, Xanax.

I hate to rain on your parade, but phenibut and carisoprodol are both drugs that also act on GABA, keeping it downregulated, and therefore stopping healing. All GABA acting herbs and drugs should be avoided in benzo withdrawal and tapering.

My hopes were, naively, that they would mostly act on GABA-B, and leave some room for "healing" (but I really hate that word in this context btw; benzo-wd is on the level of pure animal-driven survival, nothing else).

B vitamins are known to rev up symptoms in many people tapering from benzos. In fact, it is advisable to avoid all vitamins and supplements and herbal remedies, as many of these can disrupt the sensitive system of someone tapering from benzos.
sleeping pills are definitely a no-no.

Vitamin B6 is advisable though, isn't it?

If its any consolation, I confessed to my doctor, as I blagged dihydrocodeine, zolpidem and valium off her, basically to abuse and also to use to come down off uppers.
I have manged to re-build trust from my doctor, by sticking to the taper, and by taking that which is prescribed only.

The doc were very understanding about it, no blame-game or anything. I don't know what else I expected... But when you fuck up you kinda just expect that people are going to yell at you. Let me quote the reply that I gave in a thread at the benzowithdrawal.com-forum.

I posted the original question there as well to get their side of the story, and posted here the get the other. Bluelighters tend to be more like me; tried most of not all, been addicted to most of not all, so in conclusion they also know a whole lot more about different w/d's. Not only chemically, or the physical bit, but the whole process, and knows - if possible - any short-cuts one are able to take.

Here goes:

I did, eventually, come clean to the doc today. Tried my mixture for a few days first though - and the lesson is, plainly; DO stay away from phenibut! I know it's been said a hundred times before, but this bitch goes to work quickly. Four days on and I'm having w/d symptoms already. Of course my GABA-(A/B) is fucked up, but the tolerance builds mayor fast (like GBL/GHB, or actually much faster) and you get dependent in no-time. If I were me six months ago I would be stuck with phenibut big time by now (on top of the opiates and the benzos).

The high of phenibut did surprise me quite a bit. It's good. Really good. Like a mixture of the "alertness"/focus that you (or some) get from tramadol, but still very sedating with a more natural opiate-high. You get the choice of either staying awake for hours and hours and being really creative, or just go to sleep, and sleep well. It'll also lasts for like 16 hours or so; and long half-lifes always rock IMHO.

For me carisoprodol was a disappointment. All it resulted in was that I hurt my wrist when taking a misstep (walking from the computer to the kitchen 2 meters away... ). Except for that nothing to show for itself! And i dosed massive.

So, yeah... That was the final experiment of trying to flee the benzo addiction on "my own terms". You prophesized this, I felt it, and now it's materialized.

Luckily we still got a few scraps and pieces left of the welfare state in Sweden, so I'll receive a place in a slow-taper-detox-facility in a weeks time or so (free of charge naturally). And they'll start to taper from my current 25 mg /day. (The doc even gave me the option to start on 30 mg /day just because my dosing's been so irregular - 25 one day, 15 one day, 35 the next, 45 after that, back to 25 etc).

Well, that's the current status, just suffering a small bit from those phenibut w/d's while trying to get to sleep at the moment. But it will be over in a few days, and it's mild. Soon the cuddle-formation of doctors and nurses takes over, and we'll go to war for reals this time.

I hope this helps. I speak from personal experience about addiction to valium and I understand how the anxiety feels.

It does. Very much so.

 

[Eye]

Awesome comments from 3d music.

I took way more Xanax than that for a long, long time and stopped cold turkey. Yes, the anxiety was extreme for three days, but it lightens up after that. That's the crazy thing about Xanax and all benzos; they create an extreme form of the very anxiety you are trying to combat in a rebound affect. Cold turkey quitting will require monitoring as seizures are possible.

Doctors are well aware that benzos are very addictive and deal with people all the time with this kind of problem. Very cool that you have detox facilities available to you. Cheers to the Swedes.

 

[bignbrown]

tbh i didnt find gaba A and gaba B drugs that cross tolerant (i was hooked on valium and gbl at the same time) so i think you may be able to use phenibut in very small amounts to help.

just my 2 cents.

 

[Mariposa]

I have a bizarre neurochemistry that gave me a free pass from both physical and psychological addiction to benzos.

Or at least that is what I thought until I dropped to 5 mg diazepam every other day. I could tell when it started to wear off. I started hoarding them, which was clearly addictive behavior.

My script is for 10 mg, 3x/day. If I took that much I'd be catatonic! I now take 5 mg with breakfast daily.

I'm still hoarding my scripts and my psychiatrist told me NOT TO get off the diazepam. Have you considered a beta-blocker as an adjunct to your treatment? I started taking Inderal a couple days ago. I have not had a panic attack since, but the side effects are really weird. My blood pressure is naturally low. This stuff makes the physical aspect of my anxiety go away, but it sure is interesting running up a flight of stairs and not having my heart race like crazy.

You will experience rebound anxiety as you ramp down. Cognitive-behavioral therapy can help you manage that. You MUST do it slowly for the reasons others have mentioned. The Ashton Manual is very sensible and I especially like its focus on thinking positively and determination. If you want to kick the habit, you absolutely can. Please be sure to do it safely.

 

[paranoid android]

You don't want to take soma aka carisoprodol for benzodiazepine withdrawal because it can actually cause seizures. Like all carbamates it lowers the seizure threshold.

I would say taper taper taper if you want to get off it. Gabapentin or pregabalin (lyrica) helps alot of people during benzo WD's. Also valproate (epival, depakote) is a strong anti-convulsant that is also used as a anti-manic drug and doctors prescribe it for benzodiazepine WD so you could look into getting that. You can take it with the gabapentin or pregabalin as well. The downsides to sodium valproate are possible liver damage, the risk of the blood levels going toxic and some people feel kinda zombish on it. So you would need blood tests if you went on valproate but it would certainly be worth it if it eased benzo WD.

By the way these are just suggestions as nobody here least of all me is a doctor.

 

[muvolution]

Yo, you might want to just tell your doctor that you need to stop and slightly reverse your taper because you are experiencing severe rebound anxiety. SO then you'll have more Valium (just having pills and knowing that I have them when i need them helps me stay more calm.
Anyways, use the extra diazepam from your Dr. as well as the street shit, and keep tapering down to just your script. then you can start over.

Edit: oh and I wanted to know what Phenibut was and your subjective experience?

 

[Aghast]

Edit: oh and I wanted to know what Phenibut was and your subjective experience?

tbh i didnt find gaba A and gaba B drugs that cross tolerant (i was hooked on valium and gbl at the same time) so i think you may be able to use phenibut in very small amounts to help.

I agree, and my experience during the last week confirms it as well. After only 6-7 days use of phenibut I am already experiencing w/d-symptoms far worse than I would've thought. And the diazepam does nothing to ease it (maybe if you take A LOT you are able to pass out, but that would fuck me up two-ways - after all the main struggle is with the benzos).

Sure I've read all the warnings before, but some people just need to find out for themselves it seems. So today I began to take small amounts of phenibut when it gets too severe, a sort of mini-taper during a few days, and then I plan to tough it out later in the week when I have nothing scheduled.

Otherwise baclofen seems to have some qualities to it when going of GABA(B)-stuff. But I find it SO ridiculous to have to withdraw this bad from a substance you've only been using for a week (unless it's uppers or something), that I don't think I'll bother. Even though I think I've seen a jar of baclofen back at my folks house...

...then you'll have more Valium (just having pills and knowing that I have them when i need them helps me stay more calm.

Amen to that. I used this method when getting of opiates. Always had a couple of days worth of pills laying around the house, and just chose not to take them. It gives you a sense of security, and you feel good about noticing some will-power slowly coming back to life. And after a few months I threw them in the toilet, that felt even better (but to all the kids: I am _not_ recommending throwing drugs away ever; only when you really-really need to get off something).

I'm still hoarding my scripts and my psychiatrist told me NOT TO get off the diazepam. Have you considered a beta-blocker as an adjunct to your treatment? I started taking Inderal a couple days ago. I have not had a panic attack since, but the side effects are really weird. My blood pressure is naturally low. This stuff makes the physical aspect of my anxiety go away, but it sure is interesting running up a flight of stairs and not having my heart race like crazy.

Gabapentin or pregabalin (lyrica) helps alot of people during benzo WD's. Also valproate (epival, depakote) is a strong anti-convulsant that is also used as a anti-manic drug and doctors prescribe it for benzodiazepine WD so you could look into getting that. You can take it with the gabapentin or pregabalin as well. The downsides to sodium valproate are possible liver damage, the risk of the blood levels going toxic and some people feel kinda zombish on it. So you would need blood tests if you went on valproate but it would certainly be worth it if it eased benzo WD.

The thing here in Sweden is that even though you're able to get help if you ask for it, there is a strong mentality of moralizing about meds/drugs (I think the U.S. and Sweden are the worst in this respect; whilst lot's of kudos to Portugal and others). Hence they won't prescribe anything that might be considered addictive to a person that's already an addict. For example, to get into the methadone-program here is something like trying to enter into the kingdom of heaven whilst being rich.

I've searched high and low after a street-source of Lyrica though, but nothing has turned up as of yet.

 

[paranoid android]

The thing here in Sweden is that even though you're able to get help if you ask for it, there is a strong mentality of moralizing about meds/drugs (I think the U.S. and Sweden are the worst in this respect; whilst lot's of kudos to Portugal and others). Hence they won't prescribe anything that might be considered addictive to a person that's already an addict. For example, to get into the methadone-program here is something like trying to enter into the kingdom of heaven whilst being rich.

I've searched high and low after a street-source of Lyrica though, but nothing has turned up as of yet.

Wow are gabapentin and lyrica controlled substances over there? Gabapentin shouldnt be unless it's really fucked up. Lyrica is a controlled substance in the US but not here in Canada thankfully thus many doctors hand it out like candy.

If those 2 are off the table then a doctor could give you valproate since that sure as shit is not a controlled substance.

 

[Charles Ferdinand]

I'm on my way out so just a quick response:
I beat a 3 year 8 mg clonazepam habit with carisoprodol + naproxen (which is legal here in mexico)
Also went through soma withdrawals twice, even those were enjoyable on some degree.
Started last new year's eve and ended in june. Successfully.
Regards!