Hello and an MDPV Question

[FlippingTop]

what is the average conversion rate, and comparable dosages?

 

[greenberryhaze]

This class of chemicals is highly unstable at high temperatures. Something happens in the process of chasing them that changes them

If you chase it correctly, the residue that is deposited on your sucking tube is indistinguishable from the original powder. But yes, I've noticed burning it changes the effects somewhat, for the worse imo.

 

[valseedian]

hey stuffmonger.

I am your kindred spirit in the love of perv powder.. thought when I took my last bump in 07 that Id never see it again.. Finally some hope.

is it against the rules to take the convo off-board? is it against the rules to offer contact information?

sorry all, Im not new to this scene, or this community, but this is the first time Ive decided to join up here... I just have to post here. Long time lurker, first time poster (tho Im well known elsewhere lol)


in 09 swim did some freebasing experimentation... with maybe 10% luck.. swim did notice a quantifyable difference in a 'highly oxidized' batch swim considered contaminated... dosed on 6mg (there was obviously impurity and I was used to taking small bumps of the white stuff. even the white stuff was better than being sober lol...) the oxidized version resembled cirque 08 JWH-018 (coarse, inconsitantly colored tanish powder sorta resembled salt and pepper but brown not black) and lasted 3 hours or so, but couldnt sleep and wasnt amazingly loved up, but very euphoric.. reminded me of mephedrone more than methylone..



swim's going to start processing MDPV like this.. if the final product is consistantly 50% of tan PEEVEE he was sampling half a decade ago, im sure itll find its way back to the retail market. the good stuff is easily worth 100x the price of the hcl.

unfortunately swim isnt much of a chemist, and is much more versed in law... an doubts that even with major decomp, bacterial or ezymatic process and other simple reactions would most likely not exclude this from the cathinone legislation of the the european union.....

 

[stuffmonger]

Don't know anything about the legal aspects. I live in a Central American country that doesn't pay much attention to drug regulation.

Let me know how your batch turns out.

hey stuffmonger.

I am your kindred spirit in the love of perv powder.. thought when I took my last bump in 07 that Id never see it again.. Finally some hope.

is it against the rules to take the convo off-board? is it against the rules to offer contact information?

sorry all, Im not new to this scene, or this community, but this is the first time Ive decided to join up here... I just have to post here. Long time lurker, first time poster (tho Im well known elsewhere lol)


in 09 swim did some freebasing experimentation... with maybe 10% luck.. swim did notice a quantifyable difference in a 'highly oxidized' batch swim considered contaminated... dosed on 6mg (there was obviously impurity and I was used to taking small bumps of the white stuff. even the white stuff was better than being sober lol...) the oxidized version resembled cirque 08 JWH-018 (coarse, inconsitantly colored tanish powder sorta resembled salt and pepper but brown not black) and lasted 3 hours or so, but couldnt sleep and wasnt amazingly loved up, but very euphoric.. reminded me of mephedrone more than methylone..



swim's going to start processing MDPV like this.. if the final product is consistantly 50% of tan PEEVEE he was sampling half a decade ago, im sure itll find its way back to the retail market. the good stuff is easily worth 100x the price of the hcl.

unfortunately swim isnt much of a chemist, and is much more versed in law... an doubts that even with major decomp, bacterial or ezymatic process and other simple reactions would most likely not exclude this from the cathinone legislation of the the european union.....

 

[vecktor]

as far as I can see the only plausible chemistry going on is,

step 1, conversion of the HCl to the freebase, which also freebases the pyrrolidine hydrochloride impurity which gives most of the smell. the reaction is driven forward by the loss of CO2.

step 2 conversion of the freebase to the carbonate salt by exposure to CO2 in air.

it is quite possible that the original tan MDPV was not completely neutralised hydrochloride salt, instead it could have been a mixture of hydrochloride and some freebase which then became the carbonate salt over time as well as decomposing slightly.

but mostly though this is tan discussion is just hype, once the novelty wore off and people over did it then the dull side negatives of MDPV became apparent. there is an advantage to ROA's that give a rapid increase in blood levels, vaporising the HCl is a bit difficult, perhaps the carbonate is easier to vaporise? I can find little to suggest that by mouth the white material is any different to the early tan material.

Before the ban, MDPV hydrochloride reference solutions in methanol were used in GCMS analyses of various legal highs, there is a 10% loss of MDPV peak area over a couple of days but no detection of anything else.
freebase solutions in ether are much more unstable with approx 50% loss in 24hrs again whatever it decomposes into is not visible to GCMS which means either it boils at greater than 500oC or is totally unstable at 250oC.

anyway thanks to the many fuckwitted morons that got hold of this, many of whom post on this board and whose stupidity lead to the ban, we will probably never know the answer.

 

[Dash Riprock]

Hey vecktor, thanks for your input. So you would suggest that the "tan MDPV" is in fact "MDPV carbonate salt"? Would this be a tan coloured powder, stable at room temperature?

BTW, I have to disagree with "mostly though this is tan discussion is just hype". The effects of tan MDPV (whatever it may turn out to be) and MDPV HCl are totally different, not merely "the same effects but stronger". I have obtained a greyish powder which is said to be freebase MDPV, and I found the effects of that to be identical (that is to say edgy, non-euphoric and all round unpleasant) to the white MDPV, only many times stronger (dangerously so!). My guess (as a complete chemistry ignoramus unfortunately) is that MDPV freebase has the same effects as MDPV HCl, only much stronger because it is able to enter the brain more directly somehow (is this possible?). However, while MDPV HCl is fairly stable, freebase MDPV is not, and if left exposed to air and moisture will change into "tan MDPV" - whatever that is. This is the process that I would really like to know more about (specifically what's going on and what the end product is), so I'm hoping some knowledgeable chemist will be able to assist here.

 

[Shambles]

Good to see some light-shedding input from one of the longed for chemsitry bods

I must, however, agree with Dash up there - tan and white peevee are totally different in just about every possible way no matter which ROA is used. The only real similarity is that they are both stims and were both sold as "MDPV". Other than that, I could easily believe they weren't even the same chemical (albeit likely a related one) and have sad the same since first sampling the white stuff. Vaping and IV were my primary ROA with both but have also sniffed, sublingualated and swallowed more than my fair share of both (and a fair bit of extracted, yellow freebase) too. The vast differences between the too is extremely marked with all ROA, for me. Tan and white are most definitely not the same thing, in my opinion.

 

[vecktor]

MDPV also exists as two optical isomers, they appear impossible to isolate in pure form, unlike the optical isomers of cathinone. so it is also conceivable that there is a different optical purity, possible but unlikely.

unless someone has original tan and can persuade someone competent with a controlled drug licence to analyse it or get it analysed in the USA I don't think we are going to get an answer, at least analysis would show whether the tan material and the more recent white material are the same chemically
This is of course not guaranteed as the manufacturers substitute cheaper materials whenever they feel like it, knowing that the vendors have absolutely no quality control and knowing they are always going to get away with it. It would be tempting for chinese manufacturers to substitute something that didn't contain the methylenedioxy ring for example.

I quite liked MDPV when it was first came out, I haven't tasted it since so I cannot comment first hand on the tan white debate.

 

[Shambles]

It's a poor comparison, but for me the difference between the two is somewhat similar to something like MDMA vs MDA. They are clearly related and share some similarities but there are very obvious differences too and you just couldn't possibly confuse the two. I actually rather like the white version (if only cos tan is so ridiculously rare) but was fortunate enough to be sent a sample of the original tan a while back and even with a hefty tolerance to the white stuff the tan utterly blew it out of the water and was just as I remembered it. White comes in varying degrees of quality but you just couldn't mistake even the best quality white for tan in a million years.

 

[Evad]

fnb could

Yeah, MDPPP has a different feel to it and that ain't what the tan stuff is. When I plugged that soln it wasn't noticably different from the best white batches I've encountered. I think the tan stuff got a reputation as that was the colour of the first lot widely available and people were blown away by it's potency. Once it became more commonplace (& white) people were much more familiar with it and as the adage goes 'familiarity breeds contempt' so the tan stuff became a mythical product (druggies are prone to waxing mythical about products - it goes with the territory!)

 

[Shambles]

I would generally not even think of disputing F&B's pronouncements on such things but I am pretty certain I have had white stuff from the same batches he waxes mythical about there and whilst very good in its own right it is definitely not the same thing. The differences were always most pronounced when smoked or shot. I could concede it may be possible to get a white batch good enough to pass the snort, suck and swallow tests (not quite so familiar with plugging peev so couldn't say on that one) but the instahit methods were so different it's untrue. IV especially - the effects were literally chalk and cheese for IV use. And, as I said, I did sample some of the original tan that a fella had left over from when it was first around whilst at the height of my (white) peev use and it was still totally different - IV dose dropped from 30mg+ back down to 5mg max instantly, the duration more than quadrupled and the rush was right back to near-terrifying levels just as I recall. White has virtually no rush IV - tan is the single strongest, most intense stim I have ever shot (makes IV crack look like valium) and the rush lasts up to an hour. Not the same substance. I'd bet not just one of Spade's balls on it but one of my own too.

 

[Transform]

Some thoughts to consider, just brainstorming here.

Base is causing enolisation of ketone. This enol undergoes a fast nucleophilic addition to something giving the desired product.
Ammonia does not work as a base because it is too nucleophilic itself, having a lot of base around competes with the enol too much.
Nitrogen can potentially donate LP to stabilise enol significantly.

Nucleophilic addition to ketone (aldol reaction) to give a dimer perhaps?

Am I allowed to speculate about a chemical transformation?

 

[Shambles]

You are known as Transform so I don't see why not

 

[FlippingTop]

You are known as Transform so I don't see why not

ho ho ho

I know I am repeating myself but can someone comment on comparable doses before and after 'converting' the MDPV? Surley this would also help work out what the final substance is?

 

[Dash Riprock]

Some thoughts to consider, just brainstorming here.

Base is causing enolisation of ketone. This enol undergoes a fast nucleophilic addition to something giving the desired product.
Ammonia does not work as a base because it is too nucleophilic itself, having a lot of base around competes with the enol too much.
Nitrogen can potentially donate LP to stabilise enol significantly.

Nucleophilic addition to ketone (aldol reaction) to give a dimer perhaps?

Am I allowed to speculate about a chemical transformation?

This is what we need more of, speculation from those with chemistry knowledge. Maybe eventually we might be able to work out what stuffmonger's method is actually doing, and thus what the mysterious "tan mdpv" really is. Just one question about the above, would that explain why water and air is needed to turn freebase mdpv into tan mdpv?

 

[Transform]

No, it doesn't address the need for air at all as far as I can tell.
Something I forgot to mention is that the reaction would be quite hindered by the other groups, this is something which disfavours it.

I couldn't see anywhere air (oxygen) might come in, oxidation of the MD ring doesn't really seem viable, not only would it be very slow, if at all possible with elemental oxygen but I can't see much being put there without rendering it inactive. I definitely don't see oxygen doing anything anywhere else.


Perhaps 2 OH groups replacing the MD to create something a little more like... [aha] dopamine?

Seems like this, or a variation of it might have potential, after all, we're not trying to stimulate serotonin so much here, MDPV might benefit from this increased relation to dopamine.

It needn't be exactly that, perhaps a methoxy and hydroxy, or similar, but this could have potential. I will ponder on the potential of this and see if I think there might be a mechanism.

We have a weak base, in water, and air exposure does seem significant. hmmm

 

[specialspack]

Surely there must be someone with access to an analytical lab who could test stuffmonger's end product?

 

[stuffmonger]

Transform -- God bless you. Something that may help your thought process, and something that's been puzzling me all along: The oil that is created during the first part of the reaction is way lighter than water. It floats quickly to the top and stays there, no matter how much agitation is applied:

Then at a certain point in the long slow heating, it simply disappears:

Then, in a minute or less, if heat is still applied, it reappears in the middle of the precipitate after slight agitation. It has now changed into something WAY heavier than water:

And you cannot make it float to the top no what happens after this point. It also changes to a much darker color (can't see the color well in the picture, but trust me..)

I've always thought that this was a major indicator of a major change in chemical properties. Maybe you can shed light.

P.S. The dark, almost black flecks in the last picture always appear for some reason at the same time that the heavy oil appears.. I have no clue what they are. I just remove them with tweezers after the first evaporation. At first I collected them from a couple of dozen batches, dried them, ground them and bumped them. There appeared to be no psychoactive effects. Neither have I grown a third arm or anything similar in the past year. I am sure whatever it is is innocuous, which is why I didn't add the "tweezer removal" instructions in the "quick and dirty" instructions. It's a tiny fraction of the end product.

Again -- THANK YOU for your inputs.

No, it doesn't address the need for air at all as far as I can tell.
Something I forgot to mention is that the reaction would be quite hindered by the other groups, this is something which disfavours it.

I couldn't see anywhere air (oxygen) might come in, oxidation of the MD ring doesn't really seem viable, not only would it be very slow, if at all possible with elemental oxygen but I can't see much being put there without rendering it inactive. I definitely don't see oxygen doing anything anywhere else.


Perhaps 2 OH groups replacing the MD to create something a little more like... [aha] dopamine?

Seems like this, or a variation of it might have potential, after all, we're not trying to stimulate serotonin so much here, MDPV might benefit from this increased relation to dopamine.

It needn't be exactly that, perhaps a methoxy and hydroxy, or similar, but this could have potential. I will ponder on the potential of this and see if I think there might be a mechanism.

We have a weak base, in water, and air exposure does seem significant. hmmm

 

[Sadie]

I wanna live with Stuffmonger!

 

[jancrow]

^ Yeah I thought exactly that, LOL.

You look like you've got an interesting life wherever you are!