Is the depression curing aspect of NMDA Recepor antagonists worth the Brain Damage?

[7ca5p]

Just wondering what peoples opinions on this debate are.

Sorry about spelling receptor wrong in the title, my keyboard can be un responsive at times and I didnt notice it.

 

[tastethealex]

is ANYTHING worth brain damage?

 

[Methox23]

is ANYTHING worth brain damage?

Isn't death just severe brain damage?

 

[Entheogenic]

While it is seems that heavy use or abuse of these substances may lead to addiction and cognitive impairments in some people, AFAIK it's not yet known if responsible medicinal use can cause the same problems. There was a member here that used ketamine in low doses to treat depression for a while and I don't think he reported any negative effects. You may want to check out the thread: Jamshyd's Medicinal Ketamine Regimen!

Personally I have immense respect for lysergamides & tryptamines when it comes to real healing potential, catharsis, and integration. Their physical safety is well established. I don't know very much about dissociatives though.

 

[.dp]

there are ndma-antidepressiva without the bad effects in research.
needs some time.

 

[7ca5p]

My view is that if it improves your life then its not a problem, as in the case of mild use.

The counter argument is that you will only be presented an illusion that it is improving your life.

Having suicidal ideology, I would say that its better to deal with the neurotoxic effects of a dissociative than the front of a train. But of course, if the same uplifting effect can be found with less harmful drugs, is it better to try an get the same uplift from a less harmfull source? Does one even exist?

 

[Entheogenic]

if the same uplifting effect can be found with less harmful drugs, is it better to try an get the same uplift from a less harmfull source? Does one even exist?

Some psychedelics are capable of this but there is likely a lot more work involved in getting to where you want to be. It can be a difficult process and you need to be prepared to face your demons head-on. It can also be a double-edged sword when dealing with psychological issues; sometimes things will be revealed to people that they are not prepared or willing to confront. This therapy is best in the proper setting and under the guidance of a professional. Stanislav Grof and others have laid the groundwork for this type of treatment program. The next thing that needs to happen is for the current medical establishment to catch-up and start to implement these things.

It's tragic that these substances are not yet being used in modern medicine. There is definitely a place for them in treating a number of things including mental illness and also some physical diseases. It's nice to see some studies being done lately. It seems the hard work MAPS has been doing is starting to pay off.

 

[helium-4]

Jesus christ I hate all the myths about brain damage associated with NMDA-antagonists. It is true that their are some NMDA-antagonists that do exemplify some form of neurotoxicity, such as MK-801, but the most likely candidate for a currently available NMDA-antagonist that has anti-depressent properties (there's a thread in ADD that goes over the suspect cascade of effects that result in the anti-depressant activity) is ketamine. Ketamine has been shown to neuroprotective above anything else. There have been research conducted that shows some toxicity from multi-hour periods of anesthetic level dosages in the type of monkey used in testing. However, the antidepresent properties show themselves even below recreational doses. If you are truely worried about potential NMDA-antagonist caused neurotoxicity consume a benzodiazepine like diazepam, or certain anti-cholinergics with your ketamine regiment for anti-depressent action, though I wouldn't recommend taking diazepam for an extend peroid of time.

 

[Entheogenic]

If you are truely worried about potential NMDA-antagonist caused neurotoxicity consume a benzodiazepine like diazepam, or certain anti-cholinergics with your ketamine regiment for anti-depressent action, though I wouldn't recommend taking diazepam for an extend peroid of time.

I agree it's a bad idea to take a benzo long-term. I have experienced the serious neurological/brain damage they can cause and it is not something I would wish upon my worst enemy. Even low doses taken for extended periods can cause damage with symptoms that takes a long time to heal from if it does. I don't know enough about ketamine to be positive but I would guess that low dose benzos over an extended period would be more risky than low dose ketamine over a period of time.

 

[helium-4]

I would be careful with mistaken short term effects from dissociative use for any sort of neurotoxicity, especially with out a physician confirming your suspicions. NMDA-antagonists use has been seen to have a effect on ones short term memory (as the NMDA receptor deals slightly with memory function). Also, I have experience slightly discombobulated speech patterns, but that go away after a break from use. I mainly notice these effects from DXM use, rather than ketamine, but I did at a time use DXM fairly frequently). I'm saying this because there are not real reports with supporting evidence that shows brain damaged from recreational use of ketamine. I mean, fuck during an event involving a lack of oxygen, the body floods the brain with glutamate (one of the bodies excitatory neurotransmitter), and when neurons are exposed to glutamate in large numbers for an extended period, brain damage ensues, however by blocking the NMDAr channels the toxicity is adverted, and minor cell damage can be repaired. Ketamine has been seen to prevent neurotoxicity resulting from the flood of glutamate or from the GABA receptors being over activated.

 

[amanitadine]

^^^ This. And Cloudys other post a few back both address some great points. To the OP, you have got be more specific. Which NDMA antagonists? And what kind of brain damage are you speaking of? Olneys Lesions (bah)? Up-regulation? Down regulation? Need more details here. But yeah, there is plenty of examples of ketamines (for example) neuroprotective abilities, and no credible evidence showing it causes "brain damage" at recreational amounts (at least that I am aware of, or deem credible). And, if ketamines broad scope of action scares you, check out some of the work being done with more more specific modulators of the NMDAR. GLYX-13 comes to mind, a glycine site functional partial agonist (GFPA) has been shown to have amazing antidepressant effects similar in profile to ketamine (instant relief, and efficacy for up to two weeks from a single dose) with a much cleaner and safer therapeutic index (500:1). This has already spawned a second generation of even more specific modulators of the NDMAR.

Cheers

 

[8-12]

Even in fully recreational doses I don't think ketamine does any appreciable "brain damage". PCP I'm not so sure, a lot more's going on pharmacologically and I don't always feel quite right after using it, but I'm far from knowledgeable on the subject.