How to Break Someone from Looping? Experienced Trippers help!

[Cface]

I hope SOMEONE has the patience to read this and help me figure this out so i can explain to my friend what happened to him. It was unlike anything i'd seen, even in the most powerful trainwreck experiences I've seen IRL or read online. I really hope someone can help me out here.

The other night some friends and I took some 4-HO-MET. One friend, we'll call him Jim, wanted to take a bit more, as this morning he really enjoyed it and wanted bit more intense visuals, so i gave him 40mg. I took 25mg, other friend, "Tom", took 35mg, and another, "Sam", took 40mg. This was Jims second time taking a psychedelic.

After Jim took the 40mg and smoked some JWH-018, he walked outside, came back inside. Looked totally different than his happy-go-lucky personality always smiling. He said he wanted to go home then started to freak. He'd spin around in circles talking about the end of the world and grab us and yell "LISTEN I HAVE TO TELL YOU, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE", and try to get out of the room, then a second later he'd start crying and asking God for forgiveness, sometimes thinking we were God.

Then he'd switch again and get really aggressive trying to tell us how the world would end and shouting "YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME" throwing me into the sofa, shoving my friend trying to run outside. He'd just spin in circles, then fall to the ground crying, then get really aggressive. Repeating constantly for 4-5 hours. Once or twice he'd say something normal, like he seemed normal for a brief second i asked him "Hey man you want a cigarette?" He laughed and said Hell yeah, then POOF, dropped the cigarette and went right back to his "loop". Totally incoherant as to where he was, who we were, or anything that was happening.

He couldn't hear what we were saying, he didn't even see us as who we were except in brief moments during the low point of the "wave" 4-HO-MET produces (similar to shrooms), during the low point was when he'd try to explain to us what was happening, but then would go right back into that state of mind. It was like pure psychosis.

My dad heard him screaming and crying and came to my room, started yelling at him in his face, pushing him, telling him to get off his property and then Jim was outside in the street with my friend. At this point Jim was outside doing the same exact thing, spinning around muttering about the end of the world, then on the ground asking for forgiveness for all his sins while crying. My dad came outside started pushing him, trying to get him in Toms car. It got to the point where my dad was kicking him, punching him, and shoving him to stay in the car, yelling at Tom to start the car and go while he had him in the car all the way.


THE QUESTION
What I'm trying to figure out is, does Jim have underlying mental illnesses? Because even when i was on 200mg 2c-i i never behaved like that, i was coherant of what people were saying and could respond (while still able to speak) and knew to remain calm, atleast physically. I knew i was in a hospital and knew i was looping. Was he completely psychotic? Or was it because he had forgotten he took a drug and just didnt know what was going on? Nothing we said registered to him... he was just completely gone. I even managed to get 25mg of diazepam in him, it didn't do a damn thing.

He scared everyone, he scared us so bad. Like if you gave him a gun he would kill us thinking it would be merciful to us. Even Tom who had tripped hundreds of times over the years never saw someone who tripped so bad. How the hell can you break someone from that mental state if they can't hear you....

 

[Teonanactylln']

forget the benzos, go for anti-psychotics like zyprexa or thorazine.

 

[moe.ron]

prevention is always your best bet... But I have seen very experienced people break as well. Some times it happens. IME once you're there, you're there. If you have benzos then get to popping. It wont be instant but hopefully you can hang in for the little while it takes to take effect. If you have no benzos then pretty much all you can do is ride it out. If you are still coherent enough to remain seated and remember your tripping then you'll probably be alright except for the psychedelic battering you'll under go. Maybe if your lucky you can calm yourself down enough to enjoy it but it will take time.

If you're to gone to know who you are, where you are, what you are, that your tripping and that you need to just stay quiet, sit down and take it, then you are mostly out of luck. If you're that far gone and benzos dont work then it is somebodies responsibility, probably the person who gave him the high dose of said research chemical, to not let him get arrested and thrown out of a house and to take care of him and ensure he does not hurt himself or others. I doubt your friend is psychotic at all, high doses of tryptamines will destroy the mind for a few hours, but it will wear off.

 

[Cface]

We didn't have any at the time. Usually i'm totally prepared... but all i had was benzos. I just don't understand, he took some much earlier that morning and was completely fine...

You think it was psychosis then? I know my mom was scared for my safety when he was outside, begging me to stay inside away from him. But i couldn't just leave him out there like that.

And i did give him the dose. Which is why it was my responsibility. He wanted the high dose, and he reacted that way. Everyone has always trusted me with giving them dosages. Once he got home i went and talked to his mom and explained everything. I just don't understand how a person with no tolerance to benzos couldn't be affected by 25mg of diazepam... I did make sure he didn't get arrested, my dad was going to call the police, but i did everything in my ability to keep him from doing it.
My other friends who saw this are honestly scared of him now. He's long finished tripping, but he still needs someone to help him.

After about an hour being at his house he came back down and asked what the hell happened, he barely remembered anything.

 

[The Hebrew Hammer]

I find a great way to get someone out of a loop is to actually just talk to them. Just establish a sort of "stream of consciousness discussion" with them where you are both just talking about what is going on in eachothers heads. If he is blabbering on and on about the end of the world, induldge him a little and actually discuss his theory about the end of the world etc.

The point is to engage them and keep them focused on communicating their feelings to you rather than feeling their feelings. The whole Dissociate yourself from yourself mantra of getting out of a bad trip, but facilitate this disassociation for them through active conversation.

Eventually they will stop looping.

Sometimes though there is nothing more you can do buy physically restrain someone until they are back down enough to know your a friend, not a trans dimensional police officer.

 

[Cface]

Would Seroquel be a good anti-psychotic for future problems like this? I imagine the dosage would be 25mg.

One problem though, is he knows nothing of ego loss/death, or loops. I did tell him not to smoke any marijuana or synthetic cannabinoids as that always put me in a bad trip instantly. I should note, that this was JWH-018 that we diluted onto plant material, similar to K2/Spice effects and potency.

I just think it's so odd, as he did the same drug earlier that morning and was fine, just at 20mg plus taking a 5mg bump to boost it and smoked JWH-018. But he did do a line of Mephedrone, maybe that put him in a good mood...

@The Hebew Hammer: The problem is he could not hear us, he was stuck in his own brain, but he was able to walk around, didn't bump into objects like coffee tables or lamps, and knew we were there but didn't hear us... When he thought we were god i was able to tell him to be calm and he'd do it.... and Tom would tell him to goto sleep when Jim thought he was God and he did it, but only for minutes then went crazy manic. I tried so hard to get him to explain why the world was ending, but as soon as he sat down to get ready to explain he'd switch into aggression and then sobbing. And we did indulge him, we were like "Lets sit down and talk about it, i want to hear how it's going to end" We tried all that you described for 4-5 hours. Tom is very experienced with people acting like this, except they would eventually come around... and Jim didn't He didn't stop looping till the drug wore off at est +6-7 hours

 

[Solipsis]

Agreed with Moe.ron (among others..) : it can happen under particular circumstances and I think cannabinoids, including cannabis, can give you the feeling of impending doom or that you or everyone is going to die.

Sounds like he snapped and went into an induced delerium-like state, repeatedly apparently which is kind of odd. But I think it constitutes an advanced dissociated state in which the contents of the trip are overruling everything that is really happening so any normal input is to weak to break the interlinked thoughts.
It is sort of a loop, I agree with that term as well, and I have experienced it myself although only briefly before something else happened: on N,N-DMT the effects were over soon enough and on high dose mushrooms I broke and lied down for hours in certain ego-death.
To break from the loop you can either administer an anti-psychotic, or the person will have to do it themselves and completely surrender to the set of ideas that everyone will die and that it's the end. It may sound crazy but if there is no resistance anymore I bet it may very well have stopped. Question is: what kind of state would follow?
Numerous times on mushrooms I have wondered about not knowing what I was doing, what I planned to do or what was going on, thinking that I would be in hell forever.
Your friend just might have been more on edge for some reason. I don't know you guys at all but it doesn't sound like he is mentally ill, how has he recovered by the way? He might be mentally unstable to some extent though.

 

[raui]

Sampled 15mg of 4-ho-met this weekend myself, and I'd also say I felt the trip as being very loopy. I didn't get near that bad, but I didn't look happy the whole time and it was the darkest trip I've ever had w/o mixing weed. (I've never been that bad but I've been pretty close, making similar claims about death and sins)

I actually managed to smoke a tiny bit of 250 after I had came down and I was ok, smoked weed on shrooms come down one time too and was fine but I've smoked during the come down of acid and it sent me wild and same for shrooms another time.. it's just an unpredictable combination but more frequently just ends up bad.

The question is, how is he now? Does he still have feelings like what he experienced was real or is he shrugging it off as a bit of delirium? Perhaps I can talk to your friend since I've been going through this "anxiety" for a while myself. I'd imagine this is the first time it happened to him? He may be more prone to it now when he smokes so he should be careful with that.

 

[mandelbrot333]

What I'm trying to figure out is, does Jim have underlying mental illnesses? Because even when i was on 200mg 2c-i i never behaved like that, i was coherant of what people were saying and could respond (while still able to speak) and knew to remain calm, at least physically.

Is that a typo or did you really ingest 200mg of 2C-I?

Anyway, I wouldn't jump to conclusions and say he has a mental illness. Everyone is capable of having a bad trip.
I would say the issue here is the JWH-018. Seeing as it is a full agonist at CB1 and CB2, it was probably potentiated even more by the 4-HO-MET. That much neuronal activation at those receptors can be hell even for experienced users (see any OD report for a JWH).

Next time, don't give an inexperienced person a combination of drugs which you have no knowledge of potentiation/mechanism of action. You should go apologize to your friend right now.

 

[fractal fountain]

To me, the BIGGEST mistake was giving your friend jwh-018 on such a massive dose of a tryptamine. I've had some jwh-018 while on around ~30mg of 4-aco-dmt and it innstantly sent me into baaaad trip territory. I was crawling on the floor for a while trying to keep myself from freaking out.

NEVER EVER MIX JWH-018 with ANY psychedelics, like the guys above say, especially not in an inexperienced user.

 

[Material541]

To me, the BIGGEST mistake was giving your friend jwh-018 on such a massive dose of a tryptamine. I've had some jwh-018 while on around ~30mg of 4-aco-dmt and it innstantly sent me into baaaad trip territory. I was crawling on the floor for a while trying to keep myself from freaking out.

NEVER EVER MIX JWH-018 with ANY psychedelics, like the guys above say, especially not in an inexperienced user.

This. Mixing JWH-018 with psychedelics is incredibly risky. The likelyhood of having a bad trip is immediately raised. I learned the hard way. Never again.

 

[alantis360]

This. Mixing JWH-018 with psychedelics is incredibly risky. The likelyhood of having a bad trip is immediately raised. I learned the hard way. Never again.

did you smoke jwh and just get really paranoid, or did you go all manic like in the post???

 

[mollycoddled]

this same kinda thing has happened to me on lsd before, and plenty of other people I know on plenty of other things. He took too much before he was ready for it thats all. Sometimes you're just not prepared and you go over the edge... and the jwh nonsense cant have helped that shit is just not good for some people

 

[alantis360]

I totally agree molly trust me, I have seen people go manic apeshit on lsd without any jwh involved. Pretty average dose too. I was just curious about the jwh.

 

[splendide mendax]

Never, EVER, mix any JWH with a psychedelic. It's a recipe for disaster. For one, it's much more powerful than true cannabis and reacts very badly with some people.

 

[jeezits]

I can imagine your dad’s phone call to the police…. “yeah I tried punching and kicking him but that didn’t work.”
Seriously though, your dad sounds like an idiot, and charges should probably be brought up on HIM, not the other way around.

How is your friend doing now?

 

[amanitadine]

Oh boy, this sort of looping sounds all too familiar. I used to volunteer at "freak out tents" at large festivals, and this sort of reaction was very common. In my experience (and I experienced something similar myself when I was a wee lad unaccustomed to high-dose LSD) this sort of "psychotic break" (for lack of a better term) often happens when someone is unfamiliar with, and usually resisting, ego death. It usually is dose dependent, but not always. Often a traumatic event (talking to a policeman?) can trigger such on lower doses. I dont think your friend needs to worry that he has underlying mental illness. I've seen this exact sort of thing happen to all types of people. It is amazing how much cultural conditioning plays into it. I've seen devout atheists freaking about Armageddon and the return of christ. Peoples inner working become exposed, their struggles with dualism come out, good and evil etc etc. Very difficult in any situation, especially somewhere like a festival, or someone elses house where they obviously are not welcome (!)

In a perfect world, where we are all trained psychologists familiar with psychedelics, you can facilitate this ego death,and get them to stop resisting. But in the real world..........:

1. Keep them safe; keep em contained but ideally without harsh restraint or chasing; don't let em feel more threatened.

2. Don't resist or argue with their "we are all gonna die!". Just play along gently.

3. Keep the environment consistent. No dramatic shifts in music, characters, etc.

4. Just provide gentle support, talk to em. You probably will not break their loop, its gotta run its course. Just make it as easy and comfortable for them as possible.

5. NEVER SMOKE JWH-O18 ON THE COME UP OF A LARGE DOSE OF AN UNFAMILIAR PSYCHEDELIC (especially when you are an unexperienced tripper!!! )

6. Your dad sounds like a real asshole. Jesus.

 

[raver2008]

Yeah I guess your dad might be really old school drugs are evil and your going to hell for doing them type of person or something but even then thats a very fucked up way for him to have handled the situation, im sure it made matters worse.
But as far as what you can do, large doses of benzos( as long as theres no other downers involved) or antipyschotics are really the best bet, as well as trying to remain mentally stable yourself while tripping out and seeing all that going on, because if you or your friends were to start freaking out after seeing him, itcould end very badly. keep yourself in check while witnessing something like that can be just as important as trying to help your friend because if your go into a bad trip to you wont be able to help at all.

And really really stay away for JWH while tripping like others have said, seems to do alot more harm than good usually

 

[t.ska]

yea just try to jump into there playing field and try some verbal mindfucking. Or some meditation. Something to interupt that loop, but it takes more than yelling there name or trying to tell them whats going on, because it won register. Takes something more mental. I, only on mushrooms as of now, get into loops, visually. Seems to be a extension of my mental loops.

 

[queenscarlet88]

The JWH-018 on top of the psychedelic did it.

My anecdotal evidence: I can cope with ayahuasca just fine. A K2 blend on top of aya was very much like what you described happening to your friend: a paranoid schizophrenic state.