Gabapentin can reduce/eliminate opiate WD and craving?

bluedom

Bluelighter
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Whatever is written here should be taken with several grains of salt but it is experiential and the goal is to take limited observations/anectodes and see if there's a real trend/value in just that one question above. It is just exploratory and perhaps even rhetorical. Erowid has a few great experiences with gabapentin and getting off opioids without any WDs. This is anecdotally true. There is value to that. Have people tried this at all for opiate WD? Are people willing to try it out and report here? How about WD of other substances?

Doses for handling WD and craving are in the order of grams (start with 1g and increment by 1g up to 4-6g/day depending on the individual). Gabapentin is very benign drug that can be taken are very very high doses (48g, but don't try this at home) with minor side effects in general (there are always exceptions). I think it is one of the wonder drugs of Pharma. A true "medicine" that appears to fix a lot of things and it does indeed do that: epilepsy, neuropathic pain, and causes euphoria and other effects.
 
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I certainly wouldnt call it a wonder drug for any condition ive taken it for but it does help. It takes the edge off opiate withdrawals especially the restless leg syndrome i get with it. By itself it does not help that much though.

48 grams are you insane? You would choke on the goddamn pills taking that much and you wouldnt be able to walk or even see straight. Ive been taking it for about 4 years and ive never taken more then 5 grams in a day. Not to mention it's bioavilability goes down the higher the dose so taking that much would probably not only be really unpleasant but kinda pointless.
 
Opiate w/d, now that is a new one... Truthfully I am surprised Pfizer is not having there drug reps push this for yet another fix, realistically you know they are. Personally I have tried Neurontin and Lyrica for benzo w/d and I guess opiate w/d although I never took it 'specifically' for that. I was in opiate w/d though, post-w/d. It 'might' have helped the shaking in my hands from benzo w/d slightly. It could have been placebo effects just from the act of swallowing pills thinking it might help but in the end it just exasperated my symptoms. I have thought this med[?] is bullshit for along time.

The other day I finished reading a great book, 'Unhinged: The Trouble with Psychiatry- A Doctor's Revelations about a Profession in Crisis' - Daniel J. Carlat, M.D. [link and made me really wonder about all the praise you hear about this drug. Here is an excerpt concerning Neurontin... [long but interesting]

Chapter 5 - How Drug Companies Sell Psychiatrists on Their Drugs

In 1993, the FDA approved Neurontin for the treatment of epilepsy. This should have been cause for celebration at Warner-Lambert, the drug company that introduced it, but the celebration was muted. The FDA downgraded the approval, saying that since Neurontin's data was not strong enough, the drug could only be used as an add-on drug for patients who had failed to respond to a primary epilepsy drug.

This limited indication was a problem for executives at Warner-Lambert, because it meant that Neurontin was unlikely to find its way onto doctors' prescription pads. The market for such adjunctive epilepsy drugs is small, and the company estimated that it could make no more than $500 million over the drug's patented lifetime. That may seem like good money to you and me, but it is a positively mediocre for drug companies, which define very successful drugs as those bringing in $1 billion or more in sales per year. Measured by this exalted standard, Neurontin was a turkey.

The executives, therefore, came up with a new marketing plan. A number of small studies and case series had shown that Neurontin might be effective for several other conditions, such as bipolar, migraines, neuropathic pain, and ADHD. The evidence was poor, and it did not meet the FDA's criteria for proof of effectiveness, but the executives decided to try to convince doctors to prescribe it for these disorders anyway. After all, doctors are free to prescribe medications for anything they want, even if there is no official FDA indication. This is called 'off-label' prescribing.

Warner-Lambert was well aware, however that it is illegal for drug companies to explicitly market their drugs for off label uses. Nonetheless, according to a series of stories written by New York Times journalist Melody Peterson, such legal technicalities didnt seem to bother the ethically challenged company. Peterson interviewed David Franklin, a former Warner-Lambert employee-turned whistle blower, who detailed his former company's systematic off label marketing campaign for Neurontin. Franklin recounted a meeting at which John Ford, a senior executive, exhorted reps to pitch Neurontin to doctors for a long list of disorders, none of them adequately researched. "That's where we need to be, holding their hand and whispering in their ear," Ford said, referring to the doctors, "Neurontin for pain, Neurontin for monotherapy, Neurontin for bipolar, Neurontin for everything." He went further, encouraging reps to get doctors to ramp the dose up higher than the FDA recommended max of 1800mg/day: "I dont want to hear that safety crap either," he said. "Have you tried Neurontin? Everyone of you should take just one just to see there is nothing. It's a great drug."

Warner-Lambert kept pushing the envelope of ethics to the point that it was eventually torn to shreds. According to Peterson's reporting, drug reps were explicitly instructed to not leave a paper trail: "Anything you write down can be audited. So don't write anything down," they were told by executives who were concerned about future lawsuits.

The company rewarded doctors who prescribed high amounts of Neurontin with free trips, dinners, or cash, essentially bribing doctors to use more of this drug.

The company hired marketing firms to ghost-write articles pushing Neurontin: physicians were paid $1000 for nothing more than permission to be listed as authors. One memo from this marketing firm read "DRAFT COMPLETE. WE JUST NEED AN AUTHOR."

the company paid doctors to allow reps to read patient records and to shadow doctors during visits. In some cases,, reps convinced doctors to prescribe Neurontin for off label uses during these so called preceptorships.

These sleazy techniques worked beautifully. The drug became a blockbuster, earning $2.7 billion in 2003 alone. Almost all of that income was from off-label uses; in 2004, experts estimated that 90% of Neurontins prescriptions were for disorders not approved by the FDA. Eventually, due partly to David Franklin's revelations, Pfizer [which since bought Warner-Lambert] plead guilty to criminal charges and agreed to pay $430 million in fines--a pittance in comparison with the billions the drug was earning per year. For Pfizer, it was simply another business expense, and a fairly minor one at that.

Meanwhile, I saw my colleagues in psychiatry continuing to prescribe Neurontin for conditions such as bipolar disorder and anxiety disorders, even though the newest definitive studies found that it worked no better than placebo for either of these conditions. Apparently, doctors had been brainwashed so thoroughly by the Neurontin marketing machine that the data no longer mattered. They were prescribing the drug on auto pilot.

peace.
seedless
 
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^ I don't know what you're talking about. Gabapentin is the only thing besides Ketamine that makes me want to live.

It may not be an opioid wd wonder-cure, but it DOES have a beneficial effect for truly depressed people.
 
I certainly wouldnt call it a wonder drug for any condition ive taken it for but it does help. It takes the edge off opiate withdrawals especially the restless leg syndrome i get with it. By itself it does not help that much though.

48 grams are you insane? You would choke on the goddamn pills taking that much and you wouldnt be able to walk or even see straight. Ive been taking it for about 4 years and ive never taken more then 5 grams in a day. Not to mention it's bioavilability goes downtake the higher the dose so taking that much would probably not only be really unpleasant but kinda pointless.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

48g per day (this is the important point) didn't do anything in one experience (minimal unpleasantness). And bioavailabilty there could be close to zero, but not zero. It could just get thrown out through the kidneys before it could be active since its sites of actions were all full. It does guarantee the most bioavailability though. <-:

BTW, regarding your experiences, an anecdotal experience is that gabapentin effect can be restored to near maximal following a separation of a week between uses but within 2-3 days tolerance is so high that 5g does NOTHING (zero). I agree at this point people should just stop using and take a break, but you know how it goes with some people.
 
Opiate w/d, now that is a new one... Truthfully I am surprised Pfizer is not having there drug reps push this for yet another fix, realistically you know they are.

I do drug discovery and I think Pharma collectively ends up doing a lot of things most individuals in Pharma wouldn't like (perhaps it's emergent behaviour---this puzzles me a lot since I believe in the inherent goodness of people and yet people accuse each other of the worst things and end up DOING the worst things as justification---but one of my life goals is to change how this happens and I'm close). But I'm glad gapabentin is one drug that was marketed like this. Think now that the patent is off, how many people it can help (and it is prescribed worldwide for cheap now partly for this reason). It does indeed indeed seem to be one the more benign drugs.

The reason I say this is because it resembles the effect of entheogens a lot for SOME people by their own accounts. This is probably why Pfizer was able to capitalise as "cure all" but I think in a rigourous clinical trial, it might be no better than placebo. Now, I'm a big believer in clinical trials, but we have to do better than this now that we can (try to) personalise medicine (the current holy grail). Each individual is different and the clinical trial is an average. If you have 100 people and gabapentin is biologically effective only for 1 person (say due to the make of their genome or envirome), then even if that effect gets lost in the noise during averaging, it's a real one for that individual. So if you have a million problem with a problem, it's effective for 10,000 people which is not a small number. (If people want to jump on me about the clinical trials statement, I argue about this with statisticians who do clinical trials on a regular basis and I can tell you that I don't believe any real, i.e., implemented, answers are known yet.)

Now, alcohol also was initially marketed like this and in my view the two don't produce similar effects (I don't mean they don't overlap, but it's not a similar experience, it's like comparing drinking and smoking pot). But if alcohol had to go through the FDA approval process, it is very unlikely to be approved. Gabapentin is a new drug so this is a problem in that there are no long term effects studies. I'll have a better idea on how it works in 5 years.
 
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I personally believe gabapentin IS a wonderdrug for opiate wds as I just used it a couple months ago to treat my own wds and it killed 90% of all that neurotic/nervous energy, rls, hot flashes, basically everything except the depression once paws kicked in. Not to mention it seems to kill pain too cause I don't remember any aches or pains when I was on it.

Also, if you research about this use of it specifically you'll see the MAJORITY of people, as opposed to minority, tend to worship it in some way for how well it worked for them. For others it doesn't do as much, but thats a much lesser few.

I have more on the way right now just to keep around for whenever I'm ready to jump off again. In all honesty if you have both gabapentin and tramadol I tend to believe you can stop even the most severe opiate habit while feeling relatively in tact. And thats the second med I also have coming for when I give this quitting thing another round in the ring.

Gabapentin is a wonderful drug imo and I favor it ANYDAY over benzos for anxiety. It doesn't give you that sedated/stupid feeling the benzos do, and I noticed its absolute in the way it kills me anxiety. I can take 2mg xanax and still be anxious, but even a small dose of gaba (like 300mg) seems to kill ALL my anxiety. Maybe it just works better in my own brain who knows, but for opiate wds absofuckinglutely get/use the shit. The only thing it doesn't help with is depression but thats more for when the paws start. And I'm going to use tramadol as needed to get me through the paws (I realize tram has horrible wds but I can fully control my use of tram as opposed to full agonist opies). As far as acute wds though trust me when I say you'll be much better with it then w/out. Its not just a tiny improvement for most people go read around on google and make your own decision.
 
I have mixed feelings about gabapentin really. It's a great drug for the neuropathic pain i get (would be nice if they made the pills smaller though!) but it seems to worsen my depression side of bipolar at times. For some reason lyrica does not do this to me and i find that it works better too. Way too bad i could afford a coke addiction over the price of lyrica 8)

If i took 48 grams in a day i doubt i would be able to walk or even see and ive been taking it for 4 years or more now. Also gabapentin is the only drug i know of where the bioavailability actually goes down the higher the dose goes so it's actually better to take smaller doses with food rather then taking high doses at once.

When i mix it with my other usual opiate withdrawal meds (dimenhydrinate, benzos, codeine, lopermide, a anti-psychotic, clonidine and sometimes a stronger anti-nausea drug) it certainly helps. Gabapentin is certainly one of the absolute best meds ive ever tried for stopping restless legs that is for sure and it helps some of the pain of withdrawals for me as well. It also adds to the sedative effect of other meds. Unfortunatly i find that higher doses cause stomach cramps which is the last thing i need during withdrawal.
 
Wow thats really interesting that you say it aggravates your depression.

I was rather curious about that myself because 1 thing I can tell you about neurontin is in the few weeks I was on it I was serious as serious could get. It didn't really throw me into a depression but it definitely seems to have made my paws depression worse.
Like I said I was in paws which is why I was assuming the depression wasn't from the neurontin, but I noticed on the days I didn't take it although I was anxious as all fuck and shakey/aching, I was able to smile every once in a while. Neurontin seems to almost have made it impossible for me to laugh at ANYTHING as I remember sitting in class just 2 months ago not laughing at a single one of my professors jokes.
And the whole reason I had took that professor was because he's more a comedian than a teacher. Everyone else in the class would be laughing hysterically and I was just dead serious like "whats the funny part I don't get it?".

That whole aspect had passed my mind completely and I didn't really make the connection till now which is why it surprised me. I also notice by week 3 I was taking 1200mg and could barely feel it anymore, so if you've been taking it long term no wonder we differ in our opinions.
Its prob not a "miracle" med for wds like I had initially wrote but I do stand by it making me feel A LOT better then I had when I took it in wds. It was really that weird depression aspect I was attributing to paws that I don't like now. I also noticed although it will crush my anxiety I get this weird emotional sort of restlessness. Like my body will totally chill but in my head I just feel like I have to get up and do something, almost like I was tweaking a bit on speed. And it made me yap like no other drug I've ever taken in my life. Tramadol makes me social, benzos make me social, but neurontin was a completely different experience. It almost made me smarter as weird as that sounds. But I was finding all sorts of words in my head I never use when I'm my normal self and I was able to put together complete intellectual sentences w/out even thinking about what I was gonna say.

Don't they even call it a "smart drug" I think? I vaguely remember reading something about that. Would likely be my favorite thing about it I'll just have to watch out for the depression when I start taking it again.
 
^ It most definitely is a "smart drug" for me.

Pretty much anything I wrote that people made positive comments on was written while I was on Gabapentin.

My ONLY problem with this drug is that it is way too expensive and the government's low-wage insurance doesn't cover it except for epilepsy.

This is why I have to get just a single week supply of my prescription and stretch it over a month.

It synergizes extremely well with Nicotine (patches), Ketamine (ULD therapy), and Hydergine.
 
I take 800mg 4x daily for diabetic neuropathy. It workss fine. As far as opiate witdrawl goess I've never noticed any much help in that dept. But when I went off it due to a change in insurance I surre noticed a huge drop in the way my poor feet work3ed. Can't wait to get back on it for that fact alone.
 
I've been off long term/high dose benzos and opiates for almost 7 months now but I still deal with quite a bit of anxiety and depression (not there pre-drug use), it was better for awhile but came back hard around 6 months off and I've been fairly agoraphobic and anxious for the past 3 weeks.

I ordered some gabapentin and a small amount of lyrica (too expensive to use often but I still wanna compare the two) -- I've never tried either of them but I really hope that they can help with some of this anxiety.. there are times I want to eat a benzo so bad for some relief but I know that isn't an option...
 

My ONLY problem with this drug is that it is way too expensive and the government's low-wage insurance doesn't cover it except for epilepsy.

This is why I have to get just a single week supply of my prescription and stretch it over a month.

They cover it here where i live for neuropathic pain but only after youve tried both carbamazepine and a tricyclic. Or if you are intolerant to tricyclics and carbamazepine. I can't take either since carbamazepine made me sick as fuck and gave me ripping headaches even after i stopped it and im bipolar so tricyclics are kinda out. Though i find amitriptyline to not be bad for causing mania at all compared to most other anti-depressants ive tried.

When i moved to ontario last year i was going to have to change my meds around alot because both gabapentin and lamotrigine are not covered except for epilepsy and only then if youve tried the usual meds first. I was mostly worried about the lamotrigine because that really helps my bipolar alot. But since that all got fucked up i won't have to worry about that unless i go up there again which may very well happen soon. With any luck :\

I don't know why ontario does not cover either of those drugs considering it's a hell of alot richer province then the one i live in. Fucking weirdos :p
 
So how does on deal with tolerance? What about combinations?

So the problem is that tolerance is too easy. That's why the 48g in a day was reached, because it was possible. It seems at least for some people tolerance sets in within a day or two and requires a few days to go away.

Gabanpentin and opiates seem to go well though my view is somehow the gabapentin reduces the actions of the opiates (diarrhea). Is there anything else that goes with gabapentin?
 
I think Gabapentin increases the action of the opiate by like 47%. That's why they go so well together. You take your normal dose of opiates and WOW. There's both the stronger opiate action and the addition of another drug.
 
I still have no idea how someone would take 48gms OR 160 gabapentin pills in one day.
That sounds more like addiction developing than actual tolerance. For the first month I was on gaba I only had to double it from 600mg to 12000mg. But we're talking 48,000mg a day here for christ take.

Bluedom HOW LONG were you taking the gaba for that you had to raise it that high? Hopefully it was like 60 years =]

edit: and villian just by what you wrote ("i ordered") I'm assuming me and you are getting our gaba/lyrica from the same place. And if we are you will
very much like what their gaba does for you.
 
I still have no idea how someone would take 48gms OR 160 gabapentin pills in one day.
That sounds more like addiction developing than actual tolerance. For the first month I was on gaba I only had to double it from 600mg to 12000mg. But we're talking 48,000mg a day here for christ take.

Bluedom HOW LONG were you taking the gaba for that you had to raise it that high? Hopefully it was like 60 years =]

edit: and villian just by what you wrote ("i ordered") I'm assuming me and you are getting our gaba/lyrica from the same place. And if we are you will
very much like what their gaba does for you.

To be honest, only 2 days that time. 5 prescriptions of gabapentin have ever been used, 4 in the last 4 months, and the entire 120 pills are done in a matter of days. The 48g time was actually the third prescription (it took 2.5 days to get through 120 pills, 800mg each), about 12 days of total use over 4 months. The thing is that it's useless after a day or two, like taking nothing. Received a new prescription this week, ingested 5mg today, and no effect.
 
I can only talk from my own experience but I have found that taking a dose of 1500mg of gabapentin around the 3rd or 4th day of opiate wd has helped me sleep during the night. For me, at that dose, it had a benzo-esque effect although I felt a little more sloppy than benzo's tend to make me feel.

However it certainly DID help with the RLS, knee pain, and racing mind and allowed me to catch 6hrs of blessed sleep.
 
I think Gabapentin increases the action of the opiate by like 47%. That's why they go so well together. You take your normal dose of opiates and WOW. There's both the stronger opiate action and the addition of another drug.

No this is not how it works. If you take gabapentin before you take hydrocodone or oxycodone it reduces the bioavailability of the opiates by about 15%. As far as i know the bioavailability of the gabapentin remains unaffected.

If you take it after you take hydrocodone or oxycodone the opiates increase the bioavailability of the gabapentin by about 15%. The bioavailability of the opiates remain unaffected in this case.

If you take morphine especially morphine SR 2 hours before you take the gabapentin it can increase the bioavailability of the gabapentin by about 40-50% i think. The bioavailability of the morphine is unaffected.

So take your opiates before you take the gabapentin. I have really no idea what effect it has on other opiates such as codeine or hydromorphone or opioids such as tramadol, demerol, methadone, buprenorphine, fentanyl, etc.
 
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