Recreational Drugs and Body-Building

[seep]

I've begun a steroid-free bulking regimen, but I also get high a lot. I'm a bit fuzzy on the effects of various drugs on testosterone production, androgen utilization, androgen aromatization, cortisol production, prolactinemia and etc. Things I've heard that may or may not be true:

• All monoamine receptor antagonists cause hyperprolactinemia.
• Heroin causes hyperprolactinemia and lowers testosterone production.
• Heroin inhibits muscle growth (besides from ataxia).
• Benzodiazepines lower testosterone production.
• Adrenergic stimulants lower cortisol production.
• Cocaine lowers boosts messes with cortisol production
• All CNS depressants catalyze androgen aromatization.
• MDMA also catalyzes androgen aromatization.

Any feedback or personal experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[StaySedated]

i think opiates(including heroin) lower testosterone levels with heavy chronic use, but i'm not entirely sure.

the one about "all CNS depressants" i'm pretty sure isn't true.

the other ones i don't know about, but remember that if they are true it varies among individuals and may be untrue/just therories.

one thing i can say is that recreational drugs are generally best avoided completely if you are trying to bulk up/build muscle.

 

[fryingsquirrel]

I find weed gets me motivated to work out more/longer, but that's likely more of a personal thing than a general rule.

 

[vecktor]

can we keep the replies advanced??

 

[yellodada]

when I binge on PST it turns my voice so uncontrollably feminine like even its hard to describe...

 

[Hammilton]

I believe the bit about cocaine lowering cortisol production is backwards, but I could be wrong. I'll look into that bit some more.

There are some others that I doubt as well, but this one strikes me as reversed.

Edit: Nope, that's completely accurate it seems.

 

[seep]

Yeah backwards: acute cocaine use stimulates ACTH and thus cortisol production. I'm a little blurry on the effects of going on a 24 hour crack binge though.

Bigger issue right now are the benzodiazepines. Chronic benzo use. I assume tapering and stopping them will be profoundly androgenic, but I could be wrong. Very very hard to taper and stop a daily benzo habit though. I've never been so persistently addicted to a substance ever like I am to xanax. Neither opiates nor cigarettes were ever this hard to kick.

 

[seep]

and maybe even the benzo thing is wrong too:

1. Life Sci. 2002 Feb 1;70(11):1317-23.

Diazepam binding inhibitor (DBI) reduces testosterone and estradiol levels in
vivo.

Dong E, Matsumoto K, Watanabe H.

Department of Pharmacology, Institute of Natural Medicine, Toyama Medical and
Pharmaceutical University, Japan.

Diazepam binding inhibitor (DBI) is a putative endogenous ligand capable of
binding to the central type benzodiazepine (BZD) receptor located on the GABAA
receptor and the peripheral type BZD receptor on the mitochondrial outer
membrane. We examined the effects of an intracerebroventricular injection of DBI
on the serum levels of the gonadal hormones, testosterone and estradiol,
respectively, in male and female mice. DBI (0.3-10 nmol/mouse, i.c.v.)
significantly reduced the levels of both gonadal hormones in a dose-dependent
manner. The decrease in the gonadal hormone levels became evident at 1 hr and
lasted for at least 4 hrs after the DBI injection. The effects of DBI (3
nmol/mouse, i.c.v.) in male and female mice were completely attenuated by the
coadministration of flumazenil (66 nmol/mouse), a selective antagonist for the
central type BZD receptor. These results suggest that DBI acts as an endogenous
modulator to regulate the levels of gonadal hormones in vivo, and that the
DBI-induced decrease in gonadal hormone levels is mediated by down regulation of
the GABAergic system, implicated in gonadotropin-releasing systems and/or the
hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis.

so if DBI reduces testosterone, does that mean that diazepam raises it?

lol one of the researchers is named Dr. Dong

 

[seep]

OK the idea of benzos being test killers apparently holds no water. So many things I can cite here. For instance:

Neuroendocrinology 1989;49:262-266 (DOI: 10.1159/000125126)

Testicular Interstitial Cells as Targets for Peripheral Benzodiazepines
Mónica N. Ritta, Ricardo S. Calandra

We evaluated the ‘in vitro’ effect of a selective peripheral benzodiazepine (BZD) receptor agonist, Ro 5–4864, on basal and hCG-stimulated androgen production by testicular interstitial cell suspensions. Ro 5-4864 (10–9–10–5M) induced a significant increment of basal testosterone release into the medium. In addition, under conditions of hCG stimulation, Ro 5-4864 (10–7M) induced a potentiated response to the gonadotropin in a dose-dependent manner. The selective peripheral BZD antagonist PK 11195 fully prevented the stimulatory effect of Ro 5-4864. On the other hand, clonazepam, a central BZD agonist, failed to affect androgen production significantly, whereas diazepam (10–5–10–4M), which binds to both central and peripheral BZD receptors, was able to induce a significant increment of basal and hCG-stimulated testosterone production. These results suggest that under our experimental conditions Ro 5-4864 exerts an effect on testicular steroidogenesis, presumably through binding to the previously described peripheral-type BZD receptor.

I've been lifting as heavy as possible (~90% of max, 3-4 sets of 4-6 reps). I know that this type of lifting is a natural test booster. I also know that testosterone functions as an anxiolytic. It just so happens that I've been eating a lot less Xanax. I've been taking 1 mg a day, a third of my usual dose. I just don't seem to need my usual 3mg per day.

So a hunch: part of what causes benzo dependence is that benzos seem to be mild to moderate gonadotropins (causing androgen production). In this sense benzos function as hormones and, when discontinued, throw the body into nut-shrinking nastiness.

NSFW:

 

[Hammilton]

I see a lot of studies showing that cortisol levels are reduced by cocaine use. Can you find any that say it's actually raised during use? I assume that you're right- it seems backwards- but that's not what the research says.

It seems unlikely that ACTH levels increase but not cortisol, but there could be something else going on that we don't realize.

Diazepam's effect on testosterone might be due to effects on the previously termed "peripheral BZD receptors" (I forget what they're now). I haven't thought much about this yet.

 

[seep]

^for cortisol and coke, clinical results vary. intraperitoneal cocaine lowered cortisol in marmosets:

NSFW:

Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2008 Apr;33(3):321-7. Epub 2008 Jan 9.

Effects of acute systemic cocaine administration on the cortisol, ACTH and
prolactin levels of black tufted-ear marmosets.

Lima D, Spíndola DB, Dias LO, Tomaz C, Barros M.

Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Health Sciences, University of
Brasilia, CEP 70910-900 Brasilia, DF, Brazil.

The effect of acute systemic cocaine administration on total circulating
cortisol, adrenocorticotropin hormone (ACTH) and prolactin levels of nine adult
black tufted-ear marmoset monkeys (Callithrix penicillata) was investigated. For
each subject, two blood samples were obtained after an i.p. injection of 10 and
20mg/kg of cocaine: one sample was drawn 30-min post-injection, while the second
was following a 60-min interval. Blood samples were also obtained 0, 30 and 60
min following a saline injection. The 20 mg/kg dose of cocaine induced a
significant decrease in ACTH levels 60 min after being administered. Circulating
levels of cortisol, on the other hand, increased significantly 60 min after the
20 mg/kg dose. Prolactin concentrations decreased significantly 30 and 60 min
after both doses of cocaine had been administered (10 and 20 mg/kg). Finally, the
content of the three hormones analyzed remained constant 0, 30 and 60 min
post-saline administrations. Therefore, an acute systemic cocaine challenge
alters the basal circulating levels of ACTH, cortisol and prolactin of marmoset
monkeys. A distinct response pattern was observed for each hormone analyzed,
possibly related to specific negative feedback mechanisms and/or this species
glucocorticoid-resistance. The use of this small neotropical primate may thus
provide a unique opportunity to investigate cocaine-induced neuroendocrine
effects.

but IV cocaine raised cortisol in humans:

NSFW:

Horm Behav. 2010 Jun;58(1):57-71. Epub 2009 Oct 14.

Hormones, nicotine, and cocaine: clinical studies.

Mello NK.

McLean Hospital/Harvard Medical School, Alcohol and Drug Abuse Research Center,
115 Mill Street, Belmont, MA 02478, USA. [email protected]

Nicotine and cocaine each stimulate hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal and -gonadal
axis hormones, and there is increasing evidence that the hormonal milieu may
modulate the abuse-related effects of these drugs. This review summarizes some
clinical studies of the acute effects of cigarette smoking or IV cocaine on
plasma drug and hormone levels and subjective effects ratings. The temporal
covariance between these dependent measures was assessed with a rapid (2 min)
sampling procedure in nicotine-dependent volunteers or current cocaine users.
Cigarette smoking and IV cocaine each stimulated a rapid increase in LH and ACTH,
followed by gradual increases in cortisol and DHEA. Positive subjective effects
ratings increased immediately after initiation of cigarette smoking or IV cocaine
administration. However, in contrast to cocaine's sustained positive effects (<20
min), ratings of "high" and "rush" began to decrease within one or two puffs of a
high-nicotine cigarette while nicotine levels were increasing. Peak nicotine
levels increased progressively after each of three successive cigarettes smoked
at 60 min intervals, but the magnitude of the subjective effects ratings and peak
ACTH and cortisol levels diminished. Only DHEA increased consistently after
successive cigarettes. The possible influence of neuroactive hormones on nicotine
dependence and cocaine abuse and the implications for treatment of these
addictive disorders are discussed.

the effect becomes less trivial and quite interesting when used to explain a drug's self-reinforcement:

NSFW:

Addict Behav. 2005 May;30(4):859-64.

Effects of cortisol and cocaine on plasma prolactin and growth hormone levels in
cocaine-dependent volunteers.

Elman I, Lukas SE.

Department of Psychiatry, McLean Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Belmont, MA
02478, United States. [email protected]

In rodents, corticosterone (cortisol in humans) facilitates cocaine
self-administration purportedly via enhancement of dopaminergic activity in the
brain. This study sought to assess central dopaminergic effects of cortisol in
humans and to compare them to those of cocaine. Twelve cocaine-dependent
individuals received an intravenous bolus of cortisol (0.5 and 0.2 mg/kg; n=6 for
each dose) and cocaine (0.2 mg/kg) in a double-blind randomized
placebo-controlled and counterbalanced fashion. Their plasma was assayed over the
next 120 min for prolactin and growth hormone (GH), which are two neuroendocrine
indices of dopaminergic function. Cortisol injections produced significant
increases in GH, while cocaine resulted in significant decreases in prolactin.
Placebo administration was associated with gradual declines in prolactin, but the
levels at the 90- and 120-min time points were significantly lower after cocaine
than after placebo infusion. These different neuroendocrine response profiles
point to important differences between dopaminergic effects of cortisol and
cocaine.

the thing with hormones is there's so many variables and downstream effects and conflicting feedback mechanisms that results get difficult to interpret. It's like colliding particles near the speed of light and trying to analyze the fallout. Nevertheless this psychoneuroimmunology shit is promising. I'm buying that Lednicer steroid book when it comes out.

---

I think it's probable that the mitochondrial benzodiazepine receptors (I think that's their name?) have a direct role in testosterone production. That'd explain diazepam's androgenic effects: diazepam has affinity for the mitochondrial BDZ receptor.

Beyond that, I see a lot of online chatter about benzodiazepines lowering free testosterone levels (the levels that show up in blood tests). Example. However, I don't have clinical evidence of this effect. One thing to look at is how testosterone production and blood testosterone levels affect each other. It's not just a facile correlation between those two. Sometimes it's the opposite. Plus, a blood testosterone surplus can be bad (aromatization & decreased production)

I cringe when I see the name Heather Ashton. Is that unfair?

 

[astroboy007]

I find weed gets me motivated to work out more/longer, but that's likely more of a personal thing than a general rule.

LMAO, thats the first time i have ever heard that weed motivates anyone to do anything other than sex!

 

[seep]

^AFAIK it's only if you're using enough to develop tolerance and physical dependence that opiates will mess with you hormonally. I have no idea what the thresholds are but my hunch is that you'll recover rapidly from once-a-week dosing.

 

[PsychedelicPeptide]

What are your goals in lifting? To be at a certain body weight above what your height supports for a normal-sized person?

I'm a bit confused here on what exactly you are trying to ask for? You are questioning whether or not it is ok to do things like heroin or cocaine during a supposed "bulking regimen" ???

 

[Ksa]

<censored by user (profile compromised)>

 

[seep]

To be at a certain body weight above what your height supports for a normal-sized person?

I don't believe in that. My father and grandfather were weight lifters for the communists, and all my life I've had barbells and plates around me. A couple years back I applied for health insurance and was denied after a physical concluded I was morbidly obese, even though I had very little body fat on me and was built like a halfback.

But why so negative? The drug use is already happening, and a desire for natural physical gains can actually cause the drug use to diminish.

 

[polarbearsarecool]

yes opiates supress the HPA (Hypothalmic Pituitary Axis)
now look into HPA supression and go from there

 

[PsychedelicPeptide]

But why so negative?

Because your initial question stated no goals, no initial status of your body, no intentions.

State what you are trying to do before asking for help.

Which you still didn't do.

Regarding the statement of mine that you singled out, I referred to being "larger" because it is important with respect to how you are trying to go about your training regimen.

If you want to maintain an exceptionally large physique, then you probably shouldn't be touching many of the drugs you initially mentioned because all they will do is contribute to loss of mass. 8)

I could throw out some information, but don't think you are smart enough to absorb it. Enjoy your training.

 

[seep]

current weight: 185 lbs. Goal: ~215 lbs over the next 10-15 months. Lean gains. New personal bests in bench, squat and deadlift resp: 415, ~500 and ~600 lbs (current 300, 405 and 425 lbs). Current drug use: 1 mg alprazolam tid prn (3 mg), 15 mg mixed amphetamine qid prn (60 mg), 150 mg trazodone qhs prn, 2-5 bags heroin IV once a week, 1 bottle Jamaican rum twice a month, 1 shitload freebase cocaine monthly.

 

[Wizzle]

Not so advanced but: Taking drugs like that will do serious harm without the steroids you'll need to make those gains.


Are you serious? It sounds crazy.